Follow up to previous post about employee - UPDATED

[ECB]

Updated in replies. 

Curious to reactions to this situation now.

First, posted this a few weeks back:

pandce.proboards.com/thread/635553/employer-probationary-period-new-hires

My boss and I had a formal conversation right before the holiday with EE about the concerns I have, how we're in a probationary period, etc.  We all had last week off, EE took this week off in order to travel to work on his dissertation (not clear on all that, but... whatever).  

I emailed him today to give him the heads up that we may need to be onsite 2 days next week for some training.  It's for a new application that another department is trying to get up and running ASAP.  It's not critical for us, but as we may use this tool, I feel attending training is important (next week for ME is really problematic to be onsite BUT it's my job so I'm making it work).  

He emails me back and says that he booked this trip to Orlando last summer and is scheduled to be there next week.  Hopes I don't mind that he didn't explicitly tell me as we work remotely.  But if he needs to come back, he will.  

My employer absolutely has telework policies in place and in a situation like this, he ABSOLUTELY should have cleared this with me first.  I am NOT making him come back, though.

So... reactions?  

The "feeler" in me feels HORRIBLE about possibly firing him, but I... I just don't know if it's worth it to keep trying to make this work.  He's 45 years old too - I feel like WELL old enough to know that you don't just go do this.  Especially as a NEW employee!  AND after we had a talk about how things aren't really going well right now.... 

[orval]

I would make him come back. And remind him he needs to clear any travel with you first. Period.

[ssmjlm]

Nope, time for him to go. I can't believe he would just assume he could work remotely from ORLANDO without letting anyone know.


ETA: Is it possible to release him tomorrow?  Then next week is a non-issue?  I think you work in a somewhat state or govt sector, so I don't know if things could move that fast necessarily.

[wildrice]

I mean.... what does he plan to be doing in Orlando? Does he have family there or is he going on vacation? I guess I'd be concerned that he wasn't going to actually work next week...

I think you could make him come back. If this is a training he needs to be at, there is an understanding that he needs to be available to come into the office when he's scheduled to work, and he hasn't gotten permission to be out of town - then he should change his plans to accommodate.

[fortnightlily]

I'm stuck on a one year probationary period. That seems excessively long. Would it really become harder to discipline/fire him after the one year mark?

But to your actual problem, yeah, I'd do same as you - not make him come back but make it very clear that this reflects poorly on him and that his job may be in jeopardy if you don't see improvement in the areas discussed.

[mcsangel2]

I reread the original thread, and...I don't understand why you are twisting your brain into pretzels trying to logick yourself out of letting him go. Sounds like it's been pretty clear from the beginning that he has professionalism issues, amongst other things. Personally, the vast majority of problematic hires I've worked with in the last 20 years, it's been obvious from the first week that there's an issue that isn't going to improve. He isn't going to get better. Seriously, explain again why you're trying to talk yourself out of it?

[k3am]

Jan 5, 2023 17:02:24 GMT -5 wildrice said:

I mean.... what does he plan to be doing in Orlando? Does he have family there or is he going on vacation? I guess I'd be concerned that he wasn't going to actually work next week...

My nephew is coming out in March while DH and I go on a ski trip. He'll be working remotely the entire time, and taking care of my kids outside of work hours (kids will be in school/aftercare), so no change to his ability to work. But I know he absolutely cleared this with his direct manager, including sending pictures of our WFH set up (dedicated work space, oversized monitor, etc) just to cut out any concern that he might not be actually working.. which this guy should have done already. 

This guy (EE) just continues to demonstrate that he doesn't have the soft skills or common sense that you need in an employee. 

[ECB]

Jan 5, 2023 17:05:41 GMT -5 mcsangel2 said:

I reread the original thread, and...I don't understand why you are twisting your brain into pretzels trying to logick yourself out of letting him go. Sounds like it's been pretty clear from the beginning that he has professionalism issues, amongst other things. Personally, the vast majority of problematic hires I've worked with in the last 20 years, it's been obvious from the first week that there's an issue that isn't going to improve. He isn't going to get better. Seriously, explain again why you're trying to talk yourself out of it?

because I feel absolutely horrible about firing someone! But i hear you…

Also, I’ve never dealt with a situation before either as a supervisor, or even just seeing a coworker deal with this. Part of this is just trying to make sure I’m not completely skewed in my view.

[SusanBAnthony]

When you shy away from performance management, it makes everyone else miserable. So you end up losing your good people, or they are disengaged, or your group becomes known as one that people don't want to transfer to.

This is part of being a manager. Don't let one bad person be the tail that wags the dog.

[Deleted]

I'm confused. He said he's traveling to work on the dissertation but booked the trip last summer? Looks like from his previous post he started in late September-ish? This sounds like he had a vacation that he's playing off as quiet time to work?

Regardless when I've changed my normal operations for remote work (location/time zone/etc) I always tell my boss.

At this point if you're thinking you're going to fire him, I'd just let him stick with his planned travel since he won't need the training and do it when he gets back.

[maudefindlay]

My DH is wfh since 3/20 and rarely has to go into the office, but it occasionally happens and he would never travel without being cleared and he is a Director, not a new hire. He will sometimes work from our family vacation home, but again it's cleared ahead of time. Is this guy really going to work in Orlando or is he taking a trip without burning pto? Also makes me wonder if he has done this before. Eta the working away from home part.

[Deleted]

Jan 5, 2023 17:31:24 GMT -5 maudefindlay said:

My DH is wfh since 3/20 and rarely has to go into the office, but it occasionally happens and he would never travel without being cleared and he is a Director, not a new hire. Is this guy really going to work in Orlando or is he taking a trip without burning pto? Also makes me wonder if he has done this before.

I wondered this as well. 

[suzyp]

I would make him come back. This is actually pretty outrageous to me. I work a hybrid schedule and my boss literally does not care when I am. However, I have worked remotely from other out of town locations when my husband has travelled and I 100% let him know/cleared it with him before I did so. Not mentioning it seems like he is trying to hide it.

And to answer your question in the other thread, we have a 90 day probation period at my job. It is used pretty frequently. When someone is not working out, I find that it is obvious pretty early on and it's easier to terminate someone during that time period.

[ECB]

Jan 5, 2023 17:31:58 GMT -5 @rebeccawelton said:

Jan 5, 2023 17:31:24 GMT -5 maudefindlay said:

My DH is wfh since 3/20 and rarely has to go into the office, but it occasionally happens and he would never travel without being cleared and he is a Director, not a new hire. Is this guy really going to work in Orlando or is he taking a trip without burning pto? Also makes me wonder if he has done this before.

I wondered this as well. 

Yup!  Or what else will he do w/o telling me?  

[Deleted]

Also, at 45 years old, he should know how to behave in a job. This really does feel like he was trying to hide it from you. And had you not asked him to come in, he never would have said anything. And this is where people do shit like turn on youtube to make it look they are active on the network, etc. while they're not even in the room.

[maudefindlay]

Jan 5, 2023 17:42:13 GMT -5 ECB said:

Jan 5, 2023 17:31:58 GMT -5 @rebeccawelton said:

I wondered this as well. 

Yup!  Or what else will he do w/o telling me?  

If you aren't firing him I'd make him come back to put him on notice and hopefully cut some of this out, if you are firing him I'd just do it. I think you should fire him.

[mrsslocombe]

I mean if your telework rules clearly state that you have to notify a supervisor if you are working from a non-home location, then he's obviously broken the rules.

But I'll be the oddball out and say that I WFH and am often in different locations and I never clear it, nor do my coworkers. But also no one cares as long as you meet your deadlines.

But if he needs to be onsite then I would just make him come back, even if it's not 1000% necessary. It's the risk you run when you book travel and don't tell people ahead of time.

[TR]

omg fire this motherfucker already

[mofongo]

He has no respect for you, or the job. Fire him. Also FUCK him for being such an entitled jackass.

[mambo123]

Jan 5, 2023 17:49:21 GMT -5 mrsslocombe said:

I mean if your telework rules clearly state that you have to notify a supervisor if you are working from a non-home location, then he's obviously broken the rules.

But I'll be the oddball out and say that I WFH and am often in different locations and I never clear it, nor do my coworkers. But also no one cares as long as you meet your deadlines.

But if he needs to be onsite then I would just make him come back, even if it's not 1000% necessary. It's the risk you run when you book travel and don't tell people ahead of time.

I’m here.

But if you have policy to point to, just fire him tomorrow so he can enjoy his time in Orlando.

[ECB]

Jan 5, 2023 17:49:21 GMT -5 mrsslocombe said:

I mean if your telework rules clearly state that you have to notify a supervisor if you are working from a non-home location, then he's obviously broken the rules.

But I'll be the oddball out and say that I WFH and am often in different locations and I never clear it, nor do my coworkers. But also no one cares as long as you meet your deadlines.

But if he needs to be onsite then I would just make him come back, even if it's not 1000% necessary. It's the risk you run when you book travel and don't tell people ahead of time.

genuine questions - do you WFH 100%?  Is there ever an expectation to be IN the office?  Also, when you say often in different locations, do you mean travel/ a significant distance from home?  

I ask because my previous employee would go home to NJ relatively often (and which is why she quit- she moved back home!).  She always cleared it with me, for one, even for a day.  But past that, it was still close enough that if something like next week came up, she'd be able to get back.  So even if she didn't tell me - she could still come in w/o much hassle. 

And also - that's the other aspect. If you're 100% WFH, I can see how it wouldnt need to be cleared.  Big picture- I can definitely see how this works for certain companies.  

[mcsangel2]

Jan 5, 2023 17:22:43 GMT -5 SusanBAnthony said:

When you shy away from performance management, it makes everyone else miserable. So you end up losing your good people, or they are disengaged, or your group becomes known as one that people don't want to transfer to.

This is part of being a manager. Don't let one bad person be the tail that wags the dog.

OMG, this. Please reread this as many times as you need. If you don't want to manage, you need a different job.

[bee20]

I was one that suggested leniency in the last thread since it's always hard reading the unwritten rules at a new job.

But it sounds like you have a written telework policy that he could have looked up or asked about and instead he just sorta figured he'd do what he wanted. Make sure to document this, and yeah...if you're working on firing him I wouldn't make him pay to fly back for the training necessarily, but make sure you have emails to include in his firing file.

For the record, our official telework policy is that working from an alternate location is acceptable up to 20 days per year elsewhere in the US so long as you work in the core hours of our time zone and it does not have an impact to your work as identified by your manager. I've translated that to my team as you need to put it on your calendar when you're out of town but working but I don't need to approve it.  (ETA: Our limit is for tax reasons, we don't want to deal with you becoming a resident of a new state, I do know of one person being cleared for longer due to a family health issue, but it had to go through HR.  We have employees in multiple states working full remote.)

[mcppalmbeach]

There might be some wfh cultures where this is acceptable. My friend has a job like this. Her job is only remote, there is no local home office to report to…everyone is all over the country so there wouldn’t be any relatively last minute expectations to be in any office. She can work from wherever she wants. No one cares about her location or hours as long as her job gets done. Your office has a policy that clearly prohibits this…so this isn’t your employee. He needs to be dinged for this, it’s clearly not ok based on the policy. Also this annoys me because it makes old school companies and CEOs like my husband’s think employees will take advantage of telework and then prohibit it

[mrsslocombe]

Jan 5, 2023 18:37:09 GMT -5 ECB said:

Jan 5, 2023 17:49:21 GMT -5 mrsslocombe said:

I mean if your telework rules clearly state that you have to notify a supervisor if you are working from a non-home location, then he's obviously broken the rules.

But I'll be the oddball out and say that I WFH and am often in different locations and I never clear it, nor do my coworkers. But also no one cares as long as you meet your deadlines.

But if he needs to be onsite then I would just make him come back, even if it's not 1000% necessary. It's the risk you run when you book travel and don't tell people ahead of time.

genuine questions - do you WFH 100%?  Is there ever an expectation to be IN the office?  Also, when you say often in different locations, do you mean travel/ a significant distance from home?  

I ask because my previous employee would go home to NJ relatively often (and which is why she quit- she moved back home!).  She always cleared it with me, for one, even for a day.  But past that, it was still close enough that if something like next week came up, she'd be able to get back.  So even if she didn't tell me - she could still come in w/o much hassle. 

And also - that's the other aspect. If you're 100% WFH, I can see how it wouldnt need to be cleared.  Big picture- I can definitely see how this works for certain companies.  

Yes 100% WFH (since COVID, before that we were 100% in office), in 2.5 years we have been asked to come in ONCE for an all day meeting, but only applied to locals (we are based in NYC but have team members in MD, MA, CA, OR....probably some others I can't think of off the top of my head). Also some people that had young kids and lived locally also didn't come in, they just hopped on Zoom. I frequently work from PA where my parents/in-laws live, or I go visit friends and work from their home. My boss lives in Australia and works overnight (our time) so we are pretty free to do whatever.

[wildrice]

Jan 5, 2023 17:08:45 GMT -5 k3am said:

Jan 5, 2023 17:02:24 GMT -5 wildrice said:

I mean.... what does he plan to be doing in Orlando? Does he have family there or is he going on vacation? I guess I'd be concerned that he wasn't going to actually work next week...

My nephew is coming out in March while DH and I go on a ski trip. He'll be working remotely the entire time, and taking care of my kids outside of work hours (kids will be in school/aftercare), so no change to his ability to work. But I know he absolutely cleared this with his direct manager, including sending pictures of our WFH set up (dedicated work space, oversized monitor, etc) just to cut out any concern that he might not be actually working.. which this guy should have done already. 

This guy (EE) just continues to demonstrate that he doesn't have the soft skills or common sense that you need in an employee. 

I see absolutely no issue with your scenario. Truthfully, I've worked from home from my parents' house and plan to utilize my remote work for other family or vacation travel in the future - my H and I have talked about potentially extending a trip sometime so we're working one week/vacationing the other week and can spend more time just being in another place and having the evenings to enjoy it. That's not really my HR advice, but my personal opinion is that if you are getting your work done and are available for any work that comes up, it shouldn't matter to your supervisor or your employer where you are doing that work from.

I think this one raises my eyebrows more because a trip to the theme park capitol of the country that was planned last summer sounds like a vacation. And perhaps he really does plan to stay home all day and work while his family or whatever is out enjoying Orlando - but that doesn't change the fact that he now isn't available for the work that needs to be done. In this case, the work is a training that is in-person. If this was a long term, good employee I'd probably be more lenient but given his short tenure and performance issues... I don't think he is owed any grace on this one.

[Bad Dingo]

Aren't there tax laws about where employees can work off-site? Maybe that only applies after a certain number of days. Regardless, fire this guy.

[k3am]

wildrice, I think we're thinking the same thing. There are ways that this could be totally legit and one of the best things that we got out of covid (ie: the ability to work remotely, from any location), but this instance just doesn't seem like one of them.

[steamboat185]

Jan 5, 2023 18:21:18 GMT -5 mambo123 said:

Jan 5, 2023 17:49:21 GMT -5 mrsslocombe said:

I mean if your telework rules clearly state that you have to notify a supervisor if you are working from a non-home location, then he's obviously broken the rules.

But I'll be the oddball out and say that I WFH and am often in different locations and I never clear it, nor do my coworkers. But also no one cares as long as you meet your deadlines.

But if he needs to be onsite then I would just make him come back, even if it's not 1000% necessary. It's the risk you run when you book travel and don't tell people ahead of time.

I’m here.

But if you have policy to point to, just fire him tomorrow so he can enjoy his time in Orlando.

This is me as well I’ve worked from all over and never would have cleared it with a supervisor. My husband is the same. We aren’t 100% wfh, but if it’s a day that is a wfh I’d be wherever I want to be. At least with my current company. The one I worked for years ago had a very strict requirement that we had to be at home in a defined space, but if you don’t have that I wouldn’t expect someone to be nearby unless that was clearly communicated requirement.

[SusanBAnthony]

Jan 5, 2023 18:37:09 GMT -5 ECB said:

Jan 5, 2023 17:49:21 GMT -5 mrsslocombe said:

I mean if your telework rules clearly state that you have to notify a supervisor if you are working from a non-home location, then he's obviously broken the rules.

But I'll be the oddball out and say that I WFH and am often in different locations and I never clear it, nor do my coworkers. But also no one cares as long as you meet your deadlines.

But if he needs to be onsite then I would just make him come back, even if it's not 1000% necessary. It's the risk you run when you book travel and don't tell people ahead of time.

genuine questions - do you WFH 100%?  Is there ever an expectation to be IN the office?  Also, when you say often in different locations, do you mean travel/ a significant distance from home?  

I ask because my previous employee would go home to NJ relatively often (and which is why she quit- she moved back home!).  She always cleared it with me, for one, even for a day.  But past that, it was still close enough that if something like next week came up, she'd be able to get back.  So even if she didn't tell me - she could still come in w/o much hassle. 

And also - that's the other aspect. If you're 100% WFH, I can see how it wouldnt need to be cleared.  Big picture- I can definitely see how this works for certain companies.  

Myself and most of my team are hybrid. Our rule of thumb is you have to clear it with your manager and you have to be able to come in for an emergency if asked to, and if you can't, you are on PTO now congratulations. It would be different if totally remote but in our case we are hybrid for a reason and the reason is that we support in person work.