Do you and your spouse have Long Term Care* Insurance?

[mila]

I made a previous post asking about Long Term Insurance, but was confusing the 2... I meant Long term care insurance.
aka- when you get older and need insurance to cover for assisted living...

If you do have long term care insurance:
1. At what age did you and your spouse get it?
2. Approximate annual premiums?

If you decided against it, why?

[steamboat185]

No. I don’t see us getting it either. The market effectively imploded a while back and the policies they sell now are generally very expensive for very little coverage. We are just saving a lot.

[mpm]

XP: At this time we do not plan to get long term care insurance. Frankly, the policies simply aren’t that great. The premiums I’ve seen are variable so you have no guarantee of what you’ll ultimately pay in or if you’ll be able to afford to keep the policy until you actually need it and the benefit is capped pretty low unless you pay in for quite some time. I feel it’s more reliable to just save in our retirement investments.

[spinnaker5]

We do, but we got our policies >10 years ago (we’re planners….) and even at that time the HR lead at the small firm I worked for at the time said it was a crazy good deal. It’s with Prudential and I don’t think they even offer it anymore. Interestingly they are really difficult to communicate with - like, no website, everything must be done via phone, snail mail or lol fax - I can’t shake the feeling that it’s because they hope people will drop. We have our premium payments on autopay so they’re stuck with us.

I think the market is really different now that the insurance firms realize this is less of a slam dunk money maker for them than they thought.

[7costanza]

We have policies we bought when we were 36/37, and pay about $600 year for both policies. Coverage is I think $100,000 but I can’t totally remember. We signed up because the state of Washington was mandating coverage paid for through payroll deductions, but you could opt out with a private policy. Luckily my employer worked with a provider to offer policies, it was just about impossible to find coverage on the open market. Of course now the whole thing is a huge cluster and payroll deductions have been paused while they figure it out but we have to maintain coverage.

ETA: there is also a very small life insurance component, like $25k.

[Leeham Rimes]

My father had it (he died last may) and for the amount of money it cost, the hoops my parents had to jump through and the severe limitations that were placed on his care was mind boggling, I personally wouldn’t spend a lot of money on such a policy, unless they had no restrictions.

If my work had access to a big discount on a policy, I’d look into it but I wouldn’t count on it to cover everything that would be needed in a LTC situation. Honestly, my neighbor who was on Medicaid (?, the income based one) got much better care, easier, than my father did which was sad and surprising.

Many insurance companies stopped offering it bc they were losing tons of $.

[starlily]

I looked into it about 7 years ago when we were 46 and 39. The cost was quite high for the amount of coverage, especially based on our knowledge of assisted or memory care, so we opted not to buy LTC and make other plans instead if we need that level of care.

[fiddles]

Jan 27, 2023 23:43:53 GMT -5 7costanza said:

We have policies we bought when we were 36/37, and pay about $600 year for both policies. Coverage is I think $100,000 but I can’t totally remember. We signed up because the state of Washington was mandating coverage paid for through payroll deductions, but you could opt out with a private policy. Luckily my employer worked with a provider to offer policies, it was just about impossible to find coverage on the open market. Of course now the whole thing is a huge cluster and payroll deductions have been paused while they figure it out but we have to maintain coverage.

ETA: there is also a very small life insurance component, like $25k.

We are WA as well and used a broker through my husbands work. We maybe pay $1000 annually. It will cover a facility up to $5k a month. Trying to remember specifically. We went with a bit more robust plan as it wasn’t that much more in cost.

It also added a $100k life insurance policy for my husband but I only got $10k due to my health (diabetes).

We decided to keep the plan even after our state paused as we didn’t want to decimate retirement if one of us needed care

[fiddles]

Jan 28, 2023 2:08:30 GMT -5 fiddles said:

Jan 27, 2023 23:43:53 GMT -5 7costanza said:

We have policies we bought when we were 36/37, and pay about $600 year for both policies. Coverage is I think $100,000 but I can’t totally remember. We signed up because the state of Washington was mandating coverage paid for through payroll deductions, but you could opt out with a private policy. Luckily my employer worked with a provider to offer policies, it was just about impossible to find coverage on the open market. Of course now the whole thing is a huge cluster and payroll deductions have been paused while they figure it out but we have to maintain coverage.

ETA: there is also a very small life insurance component, like $25k.

We are WA as well and used a broker through my husbands work. We maybe pay $1000 annually. It will cover a facility up to $5k a month I think. Trying to remember specific numbers. We went with a bit more robust plan as it wasn’t that much more in cost.

It also added a $100k life insurance policy for my husband but I only got $10k due to my health (diabetes).

We decided to keep the plan even after our state paused as we didn’t want to decimate retirement if one of us needed care

[wise_rita]

Jan 27, 2023 23:33:20 GMT -5 spinnaker5 said:

I think the market is really different now that the insurance firms realize this is less of a slam dunk money maker for them than they thought.

How on earth could insurance companies think that this would make them money? People are older and sicker yet living longer, and assisted living basically has no price ceiling.

[letsgetweird]

I don't but I'd consider it someday. I'd look into a hybrid policy that offer LTC and life insurance

[dirtyred]

Jan 27, 2023 23:33:20 GMT -5 spinnaker5 said:

We do, but we got our policies >10 years ago (we’re planners….) and even at that time the HR lead at the small firm I worked for at the time said it was a crazy good deal. It’s with Prudential and I don’t think they even offer it anymore. Interestingly they are really difficult to communicate with - like, no website, everything must be done via phone, snail mail or lol fax - I can’t shake the feeling that it’s because they hope people will drop. We have our premium payments on autopay so they’re stuck with us.

I think the market is really different now that the insurance firms realize this is less of a slam dunk money maker for them than they thought.

We also got our policies from Prudential over 10 years ago.

[SusanBAnthony]

No.

It's so expensive and coverage is limited. Just doesn't seem worth it.

I'd rather save the amount of the premium and have the flexibility to use it how we want to.

That is generally my attitude towards insurance. We don't do pet insurance, we have limited life insurance, etc.

[mpm]

Just as a word of caution for those buying coverage for facilities up to 100k or 5k/month - the least expensive facility we could find for my grandfather a few years ago was still nearly 10k/month. In a LCOL area. He had Alzheimer’s and needed the security of a memory care facility, but still. Be prepared to need some of your personal assets or Medicare when it becomes medically necessary.

[7costanza]

Jan 28, 2023 2:08:30 GMT -5 fiddles said:

Jan 27, 2023 23:43:53 GMT -5 7costanza said:

We have policies we bought when we were 36/37, and pay about $600 year for both policies. Coverage is I think $100,000 but I can’t totally remember. We signed up because the state of Washington was mandating coverage paid for through payroll deductions, but you could opt out with a private policy. Luckily my employer worked with a provider to offer policies, it was just about impossible to find coverage on the open market. Of course now the whole thing is a huge cluster and payroll deductions have been paused while they figure it out but we have to maintain coverage.

ETA: there is also a very small life insurance component, like $25k.

We are WA as well and used a broker through my husbands work. We maybe pay $1000 annually. It will cover a facility up to $5k a month. Trying to remember specifically. We went with a bit more robust plan as it wasn’t that much more in cost.

It also added a $100k life insurance policy for my husband but I only got $10k due to my health (diabetes).

We decided to keep the plan even after our state paused as we didn’t want to decimate retirement if one of us needed care

That’s right, it’s a monthly amount of coverage rather than a lump sum. I think we have $3000/month.

[huskymom]

Jan 28, 2023 8:15:55 GMT -5 mpm said:

Just as a word of caution for those buying coverage for facilities up to 100k or 5k/month - the least expensive facility we could find for my grandfather a few years ago was still nearly 10k/month. In a LCOL area. He had Alzheimer’s and needed the security of a memory care facility, but still. Be prepared to need some of your personal assets or Medicare when it becomes medically necessary.

Yes, this…we are looking for my mom and most memory care places around 10k or higher depending on services included …central CT. And we may need to add hospice care on top of that.

[steamboat185]

Most of the LTC plans also only kick in after 90-100 days of care and if you can prove that the person can complete several tasks independently. Once you get through those hoops they will only pay for a few years typically 1-3

[spinnaker5]

Jan 28, 2023 3:29:37 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

Jan 27, 2023 23:33:20 GMT -5 spinnaker5 said:

I think the market is really different now that the insurance firms realize this is less of a slam dunk money maker for them than they thought.

How on earth could insurance companies think that this would make them money? People are older and sicker yet living longer, and assisted living basically has no price ceiling.

I know, right? Kind of like how 8-10ish years ago the big corporate insurance providers thought cybersecurity insurance was going to be a great line of business for them. Not so much. 

[plutosmoon]

I don't have it. At this point, I'd probably be denied for coverage due to my family history. Most policies don't pay nearly enough for skilled long term nursing care.

Over 20 years ago we put my grandfather into assisted living in a pretty LCOL area, it was almost $4k a month back then. I don't see any world where I can possibly save enough to cover the costs of long term nursing care even with a LTC policy. I'll have to spend all my assets and go on medicaid to cover care, so I might as well save the premium in the meantime.

My parents (84 and 78) are now looking into senior living that transitions to assisted living and nursing care, the costs are way more than my dad's pension. They should get lucky with house proceeds, that should help them cover the monthly deficit for a while. My dad is going downhill, and it will soon be hard for them to live independently, but he could still have another 5-10 years as his disease progresses, he could need years of skilled care. LTC would have covered a fraction of what he may need.They had a policy a while back, but the premiums skyrocketed and the payout was pretty small.

[MixedBerryJam]

Jan 27, 2023 22:23:02 GMT -5 mila said:

…

i don’t have long term care insurance. I don’t only bc my financial guy regularly advises against it. We had the conversation every couple of years during my 40’s and 50’s. He is of the opinión that the limitations (he was generally talking about coverage duration and daily limits I think) made the expense not worth it. I May be oversimplifying. But if you’re going to get LTC insurance just be very clear on caps and how long it will provide coverage. Some are as short as 30 days.

[momof2]

As someone else warned, really, really understand the terms of what you are buying. Many policies are expensive and cover very little.

We do not have it. We already have a child that will have to live out her life in a Medicaid funded intermediate care facility. We should end up with enough money to pay for a pretty nice place for a while. And then we would be in a Medicare facility once that money runs out.

That said, I also very much believe in the right to die. With some diagnoses, if I was still mentally competent, I would head to a jurisdiction where I could have a supported death. My hsuband will not do this so he needs more $$$.

[simpsongal]

Jan 27, 2023 22:34:23 GMT -5 steamboat185 said:

No. I don’t see us getting it either. The market effectively imploded a while back and the policies they sell now are generally very expensive for very little coverage. We are just saving a lot.

+1
I feel like it’s the aging lotto. Either you don’t need expensive long term care or you do and you spend everything you have and go on Medicaid if need be.

[fiddles]

Jan 28, 2023 8:15:55 GMT -5 mpm said:

Just as a word of caution for those buying coverage for facilities up to 100k or 5k/month - the least expensive facility we could find for my grandfather a few years ago was still nearly 10k/month. In a LCOL area. He had Alzheimer’s and needed the security of a memory care facility, but still. Be prepared to need some of your personal assets or Medicare when it becomes medically necessary.

I can’t remember our specific monthly but we did go high for this particular reason. We figured the bulk would be paid through the policy and we would supplement a small amount

[georgeglass]

We bought it in our 30s (maybe early 40s) because my dad sold it for a well-respected company. He knew the tide was turning against it and most companies were about to impose a lot of limits and restrictions, so he recommended we get in before the caps. I truly don't know how much we pay because as a daughter of a lifelong insurance salesman, I have a lot of insurance.

[sillygoosegirl]

No. It's one of those things I don't really want to think about. And even back when the getting was supposedly good, it seemed like the caps were probably still much too low. :-(

[jlt19]

My employer added this as an optional benefit this year (actually a hybrid of LTC and life insurance). The expense for the benefit was laughable. My financial advisor had already advised against it, but once I saw the actual numbers I didn’t even bother sharing the details with him. It was just so much for so little.

[Leeham Rimes]

Also keep in mind many of these policies are reimbursement policies, which we had no idea of AND they can deny your claim, just like with health insurance. Read the policy bc some will have a requirement that the person be in LTC, self pay for a certain time frame before they will start paying. And the amount of qualification paperwork will feel like a full time job. Because it is. There is also a possibility that there will be continuous care exclusions or re-qualification requirement. Just bc you get approved in June of 2023 doesn’t mean you’re done proving that you have the need to use the insurance you paid for for decades.
Also there could be facility exclusions. You may not be able to pick any ole facility you want, you may be presented with an incredibly short list of approved locations.

[katb]

Jan 28, 2023 8:15:55 GMT -5 mpm said:

Just as a word of caution for those buying coverage for facilities up to 100k or 5k/month - the least expensive facility we could find for my grandfather a few years ago was still nearly 10k/month. In a LCOL area. He had Alzheimer’s and needed the security of a memory care facility, but still. Be prepared to need some of your personal assets or Medicare when it becomes medically necessary.

Agreed.  My BFF mom developed alzheimer like symptoms very quickly and within a year needed to be placed in a facility - home nurses and spending the night with her wasn't enough.  Her facility (she is considered level 2/3 out of 5 - 5 being the end stages of alzheimers) with a Roommate and her own doctors (so not using the facilities doctors - we take her out to her doctors) is over $7k a month.  Fortunately she has a retirment account, pension, SS, and they sold her house.  She has enough money to last about 7 years as her costs will increase as her needs increase.  It is a very sad realization.  I mean every bit helps but the $3k/$5k a month won't cover it all.

[Wallflower]

I was lucky and had an employer offer a portable LTC plan about 25 years ago, so back when the plans were better. Employees didn't even have to get a physical. It was supposed to stay at the same price forever and did until the last couple of years. We're in the midst of a legally-approved increase over 3 years, at which point, I'll be paying about $1,500/year for coverage that should give me about $275/day for 5 years (this amount increases every year) and also covers some in-home options. I think I've been incredibly fortunate to get the plan when I did.

Because we were all in a pool, rather than individuals applying for insurance, they were able to extend the offer to family members of employees. My father had COPD and had been denied, even by this company (John Hancock), so he was skeptical. He ended up getting approved. He never used it but it was a source of reassurance for him, something I'll be forever grateful to have given him, though obviously *I* didn't really do anything.

It really makes me sad that the LTC options are so bad now. I know the economics, that it turned out to be a bad bet for the insurance companies, but it's so hard on people at a time in life when you want to remove stress, not add to it.

[sonrisa]

We are in the process of getting it now. We had always planned to but pushed up the date because we are getting genetic testing done soon. The reason for the testing wouldn't be relevant for long term care, but we want it in place beforehand in case there are any nasty unexpected surprises.