How progressive are you?

[kiminky]

My husband and I have this discussion periodically when it comes to incarceration. I tend to think I am a pretty progressive person around political issues, including incarceration. Most people are not benefitted by serving decades in prison. They do not come out better on the other side. There are more beneficial rehabilitative programs. These are the more progressive options. Prison is barbaric. It is costly to society. What crimes and people "deserve" rehabilitation and what and who don't?

TW- So, tonight we got to Danny Masterson's sentence of 30 years to life in our discussion. And I struggled. Maybe I am not progressive. Sex crimes are notoriously hard to rehabilitate.

I follow some abolitionists on social media. There are nuances to everything I know that. But is prison part of a progressive society?

[bugandbibs]

I think prison conditions should be improved. I think they should not be private, for profit institutions and need more oversight.br]
We can do so much more to address the root causes of crime, improve circumstances to reduce repeat offenders, and help inmates build skills. I firmly believe in the ability of humans to grow and change as people. Not everybody and this is where longer prison sentences should come into play. I think more people could be helped/served by community service programs rather than prison sentences.

[Jalapeñomel]

Prison is almost always a symptom not a cause (so to say), so until we fix the issues that many incarcerated folks have on the outside, the prison system will continue to do what it does. Everything else we do in the meantime is like shitting in the wind.

[StrawberryBlondie]

I think as a country we over-incarcerate and I think our entire prison system needs a major overhaul but I don't want to abolish prisons entirely. Certain crimes just need punishment, and some need severe punishment.

[SusanBAnthony]

This is not informed by any data, but I think we probably need to have most people not in prison as long and getting vastly different services to prepare them for returning to society, and others we should probably keep incarcerated as long, or maybe longer, like your example.

[TR]

I think a lot of this conversation has to do with what you think the primary purpose of prison/jail is. Rehabilitation? Punishment? Protecting society from dangerous individuals?

[erbear]

I have a similar struggle, but sometimes, I do think people can't be rehabilitated and should be off the streets forever. The prison system as a whole needs an overhaul, and I do not know what the answer is.

My progressive controversy is the death penalty. Intellectually, I don't agree with it -- I think it't barbaric and wrong.

TW TW TW @@@ murder



But a few years ago, I had a friend who was gunned down in an attempted carjacking in front of his house because he asked the carjackers to allow him to take his baby out of her carseat before they took his car. I went to the trial and I wanted those men to die, and I've never felt that way before.

[tacokick]

I think the prison system is awful and needs to be completely overhauled/abolished but at the same time, I can’t be too upset when a rich white serial rapist who takes no responsibility for his crimes gets sentenced to jail time.

The alternatives to prison work best when there is buy in from all parties. Even many prison abolitionists admit that there would probably always need to be some way to remove some people from general society in a way that is as humane as possible. There are always going to be some people who are going to be resistant to rehabilitation who are real dangers.

I am not optimistic there will be any major overhaul of the system (why would there when it is so profitable?) so I think it’s important to focus on parts of the problem and tackle them individually in hopes it can bring along systemic change. That’s why it’s so important to support public schools, libraries, social services, access to health care, programs in prisons that improve prisoner lives, etc. The whole issue around plea bargaining alone is massive and I’m not sure how to tackle that but that clearly needs to be done.

[aurora]

Sept 11, 2023 8:50:38 GMT -5 TR said:

I think a lot of this conversation has to do with what you think the primary purpose of prison/jail is. Rehabilitation? Punishment? Protecting society from dangerous individuals?

And/or deterrent to future crimes?

(I'm not particularly criminally-minded myself, but I definitely don't want to do something that would cause me to end up imprisoned!)

[rubytue]

Sept 11, 2023 8:50:38 GMT -5 TR said:

I think a lot of this conversation has to do with what you think the primary purpose of prison/jail is. Rehabilitation? Punishment? Protecting society from dangerous individuals?

And it’s also highly individualized crime wise. A serial killer? Punishment/protecting society. A guy who robs a liquor store or sells drugs? Rehabilitation and/or fixing the societal issues that lead to feeling that was the best option. 

[Velar Fricative]

Sept 11, 2023 10:14:08 GMT -5 rubytue said:

Sept 11, 2023 8:50:38 GMT -5 TR said:

I think a lot of this conversation has to do with what you think the primary purpose of prison/jail is. Rehabilitation? Punishment? Protecting society from dangerous individuals?

And it’s also highly individualized crime wise. A serial killer? Punishment/protecting society. A guy who robs a liquor store or sells drugs? Rehabilitation and/or fixing the societal issues that lead to feeling that was the best option. 

White collar crime? Punishment, lol. In all seriousness though, I agree with you that it depends on the crime.

[Velar Fricative]

Sept 11, 2023 8:50:38 GMT -5 TR said:

I think a lot of this conversation has to do with what you think the primary purpose of prison/jail is. Rehabilitation? Punishment? Protecting society from dangerous individuals?

This is key and I think about this a lot in the context of ***TW***

...crimes that are sexual in nature that would have them added to the sex offender registry upon release. If the person is still dangerous enough that addition to the registry is necessary...then maybe they shouldn't get out at all? Because yeah, it seems like rehabilitation is less likely for such offenders. But, is that constitutional? 

[pixy0stix]

Sept 11, 2023 9:21:37 GMT -5 tacokick said:

I think the prison system is awful and needs to be completely overhauled/abolished but at the same time, I can’t be too upset when a rich white serial rapist who takes no responsibility for his crimes gets sentenced to jail time.

The alternatives to prison work best when there is buy in from all parties. Even many prison abolitionists admit that there would probably always need to be some way to remove some people from general society in a way that is as humane as possible. There are always going to be some people who are going to be resistant to rehabilitation who are real dangers.

I am not optimistic there will be any major overhaul of the system (why would there when it is so profitable?) so I think it’s important to focus on parts of the problem and tackle them individually in hopes it can bring along systemic change. That’s why it’s so important to support public schools, libraries, social services, access to health care, programs in prisons that improve prisoner lives, etc. The whole issue around plea bargaining alone is massive and I’m not sure how to tackle that but that clearly needs to be done.

I agree with this. As for the bolded, there's also a lot of discussion about what is humane. There's research now that imprisoning someone for life is not as humane as executing them, especially in regards to mental health. It's decades long torture.

So to answer the OP question, I think I'm fairly progressive in that I believe the entire system needs an overhaul, but not progressive in that I believe in some instances we need to keep the death penalty. 

[goldengirlz]

I think being progressive means being able to hold multiple competing thoughts at once: 1) the prison system fails more people and does more net harm to our society than good, 2) many, if not most, societal ills would be better fixed with investments in social support and mental health services, 3) there are certain crimes that are just heinous.

Being “progressive,” IMO at least, doesn’t mean you need to search your heart for sympathy for rapists, murderers, child abusers or even grifters like Elizabeth Holmes who were given every advantage in life and chose to use their privilege to prey on others.

To me it means we should look at the data and constantly try to do better with the best options we have. Acknowledging that our prison system is barbaric and steeped in racism doesn’t mean we need to let evil fucks get away with their crimes. Almost every society has some form of criminal justice system — but some do it more humanely and effectively than others because they’re able to balance all these competing ideas rather than approaching the issue in absolutes and campaign slogans.

[VillainV]

An acquaintance of my H is in federal prison for a pretty heinous non-violent crime, and honestly it sounds like summer camp. I’m pissed that my tax dollars are going to that. I think the person deserves MUCH worse punishment than they are getting. But I agree that our prisons are a mess, and I don’t know what the right answer is.

[TR]

Sept 11, 2023 10:14:08 GMT -5 rubytue said:

Sept 11, 2023 8:50:38 GMT -5 TR said:

I think a lot of this conversation has to do with what you think the primary purpose of prison/jail is. Rehabilitation? Punishment? Protecting society from dangerous individuals?

And it’s also highly individualized crime wise. A serial killer? Punishment/protecting society. A guy who robs a liquor store or sells drugs? Rehabilitation and/or fixing the societal issues that lead to feeling that was the best option. 

Oh yes, very good point.

[Michelle]

What a timely post. I recently saw a short video on the topic in this article (Norway's completely different approach to "prison," but can't remember the source:

www.forbes.com/sites/davidnikel/2020/07/01/basty-norways-island-prison-where-inmates-work-ski-and-watch-tv/?sh=3045718bbabe

Definitely a way different concept from what we currently have in the U.S.


ETA:
Found this video: youtu.be/Fb-gOS3p44U

[Michelle]

Following up - I don't know how progressive I am. I really like the idea of Norway's prisons. But for sex crimes, particularly against children, i rather appreciate Machiavellian justice.

******************************************TW TW TW extreme violence**********************************************************
In The Prince, Machiavelli tells the story of a system of punishment where the offender's body is chained on each end to horses, which then take off and pull the body apart. Then each half of the body is put on either end of the town on display for everyone to see what will happen if you commit that crime.
*****************************************************************************************************


I know that is particularly brutal, and in a country like ours with so much corruption, it would be hard to fairly adjudicate that punishment with our current innocent conviction rates.

But if there is 100% undeniable proof of guilt, God forgive me but I'm ok with that happening to people like Jeffrey Dahmer and serial pedophiles if the fear of that punishment deters someone else from committing such crimes.

[goldengirlz]

Sept 11, 2023 8:50:38 GMT -5 TR said:

I think a lot of this conversation has to do with what you think the primary purpose of prison/jail is. Rehabilitation? Punishment? Protecting society from dangerous individuals?

According to criminal justice theory, the goal should be all of the above: criminal sentences should serve as a deterrent, prevent more crimes from occurring, offer retribution to victims and rehabilitate the offender (when possible).

The U.S. seems to over-index on the punitive/retribution goals and fails on just about everything else.

[kiminky]

It seems like it is almost a weekly occurrence these days of someone who has been imprisoned for decades being released/exonerated by DNA or other evidence coming to light. So many instances of our "justice" system getting it wrong. That is terrifying. Decades lost for these innocent people.

It also sounds like in some of the comments above, if you are rich and white ala Elizabeth Holmes, then hell yes, time spent in prison for you. While I understand the prison and justice system has ALWAYS been racist and discriminatory to poor defendants, I think it all should be looked at with a critical eye.

[goldengirlz]

Sept 11, 2023 15:53:15 GMT -5 kiminky said:

It seems like it is almost a weekly occurrence these days of someone who has been imprisoned for decades being released/exonerated by DNA or other evidence coming to light. So many instances of our "justice" system getting it wrong. That is terrifying. Decades lost for these innocent people.

It also sounds like in some of the comments above, if you are rich and white ala Elizabeth Holmes, then hell yes, time spent in prison for you. While I understand the prison and justice system has ALWAYS been racist and discriminatory to poor defendants, I think it all should be looked at with a critical eye.

I mentioned Holmes but that isn’t AT ALL what I said.

No one here is advocating for a separate justice system for rich people and poor people. Come on.

[ellipses84]

I agree with others that our Justice system, prisons and public / social services need a complete overhaul and eliminating prisons without that infrastructure in place doesn’t solve things.

I’m against for profit prisons.

I’m against prison work programs unless they are optional and pay a fair wage (not less than minimum wage which needs to increase).

I’m against parolees having to pay fees to be on parole.

I believe everyone in the US should receive equitable and good healthcare. This is often lacking for prisoners.

@@ I think a lot of those in prison could be sent to more specific secure rehabilitation centers - whether for drug addiction, mental health, etc). The programs where women who had babies in prison were allowed to stay with them are pretty successful, keeping families together and teaching parents skills that will improve all their lives post prison. I don’t think babies should be in prison but support therapeutic, educational residential centers. The approach should be how can we help this person become a healthy member of society that contributes positively, not how can we punish this person who needs rehabilitation.

I think it’s unrealistic to think we won’t have prisons for a smaller population of violent offenders or serious crimes, and we also have to consider the victims of crimes and potential danger to society.

I think the inconsistencies in sentencing lengths for the same crimes are crazy.

[kiminky]

Sept 11, 2023 16:05:54 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

Sept 11, 2023 15:53:15 GMT -5 kiminky said:

It seems like it is almost a weekly occurrence these days of someone who has been imprisoned for decades being released/exonerated by DNA or other evidence coming to light. So many instances of our "justice" system getting it wrong. That is terrifying. Decades lost for these innocent people.

It also sounds like in some of the comments above, if you are rich and white ala Elizabeth Holmes, then hell yes, time spent in prison for you. While I understand the prison and justice system has ALWAYS been racist and discriminatory to poor defendants, I think it all should be looked at with a critical eye.

I mentioned Holmes but that isn’t AT ALL what I said.

No one here is advocating for a separate justice system for rich people and poor people. Come on.

I didn't mean to imply that was what you said. If my words indicated that, I apologize. I just feel there tends to be far less sympathy for those who are white and/or rich. Whether that is deserved or not, I don't know. I don't think you are advocating for two justice systems. I think we need to look at punishment and prison as a whole critically and the purposes it serves for everyone.

[goldengirlz]

Sept 11, 2023 18:08:47 GMT -5 kiminky said:

Sept 11, 2023 16:05:54 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

I mentioned Holmes but that isn’t AT ALL what I said.

No one here is advocating for a separate justice system for rich people and poor people. Come on.

I didn't mean to imply that was what you said. If my words indicated that, I apologize. I just feel there tends to be far less sympathy for those who are white and/or rich. Whether that is deserved or not, I don't know. I don't think you are advocating for two justice systems. I think we need to look at punishment and prison as a whole critically and the purposes it serves for everyone.

I think the reason there’s less sympathy is because “sympathy” is already baked into the criminal justice system for rich, white offenders, who receive disproportionately lighter sentences and are less likely to serve prison time in general (and also less likely to have the cops called on them and be arrested in the first place). They’re also more likely to be seen as people who can be rehabilitated; they have advantages that others don’t and are given the benefit of the doubt more often (in employment, for example). There’s tons of data and countless anecdotal examples of this. Not many people get celebrities to write character statements for them, to use just one small example.

That doesn’t mean that the prison industrial complex isn’t broken or in need of reform. But if we focus on the problems for the populations least likely to get a fair shake, by extension we fix the problems for everyone.

The point I was making above is that it’s okay to feel how we feel about people who commit heinous acts. It’s a completely reasonable statement — even in a modern, progressive society — to say that one of the goals of our justice system should be retribution for victims, even if it should balanced with other goals.

[kiminky]

I think it's a complicated conversation for sure. As another poster mentioned in their comments (I can't @ on my phone), there should be mental health services in place. It seems if you commit some of these most heinous crimes, there is most likely a mental health issue at play, to me at least. Also, as stated above there should be prison time for "serious" crimes. I think some crimes are serious to everyone but then things start to get muddy as to what is as serious and deserving of decades behind bars.

[kiminky]

PDQ

My daughter's father has spent time in prison and jail for violent offenses primarily due to alcoholism, he didn't come out the other side better for it. He has also spent most of his adult life in and out of some kind of court ordered rehab, I am not sure that served him well either. The answers are hard.

[tacokick]

Sept 11, 2023 18:08:47 GMT -5 kiminky said:

I didn't mean to imply that was what you said. If my words indicated that, I apologize. I just feel there tends to be far less sympathy for those who are white and/or rich. Whether that is deserved or not, I don't know. I don't think you are advocating for two justice systems. I think we need to look at punishment and prison as a whole critically and the purposes it serves for everyone.

I think there is less sympathy for rich white people like Masterson getting sentenced because we know that they can afford the best defense and if they get convicted we know it’s not because of systemic racism and a lack of access to resources. It’s mostly likely because they are actually really, really guilty.

[kiminky]

Sept 11, 2023 19:15:21 GMT -5 tacokick said:

Sept 11, 2023 18:08:47 GMT -5 kiminky said:

I didn't mean to imply that was what you said. If my words indicated that, I apologize. I just feel there tends to be far less sympathy for those who are white and/or rich. Whether that is deserved or not, I don't know. I don't think you are advocating for two justice systems. I think we need to look at punishment and prison as a whole critically and the purposes it serves for everyone.

I think there is less sympathy for rich white people like Masterson getting sentenced because we know that they can afford the best defense and if they get convicted we know it’s not because of systemic racism and a lack of access to resources. It’s mostly likely because they are actually really, really guilty.

I don't want people to think I am in here caping for rich, white people in the justice system. I just think if you look at one piece of the justice system, you need to look at all of it.

[wildrice]

I don't think having whatever feelings you have about criminals who personally impacted you or your loved ones or committed crimes similar to those that are personal to you means you aren't progressive. These are some really complicated ethical questions that don't really have a "right" answer.

For me personally, I think our prison system is so completely fucked that nothing that I would want to happen is realistic at this point. But ideally I would not want the majority of criminals to serve a life sentence or even several decades. I do think that if we were willing to invest the needed resources into rehabilitating people, the vast majority could do so and become productive - or at least not harmful - members of society. But without pretty intensive supports while they are in prison AND pretty intensive supports when they leave to get them back onto their feet and onto a good path, that's not very realistic. And I don't see those changing at any time in the near future. So, I tend to think that violent offenders (including sexual violence) are probably better kept in jail in the current system.

I also think that once people are released we should consider their debt paid and let them get jobs, housing, vote, and otherwise assimilate back into society. We'd have a lot fewer reoffenders if we gave people an actual chance at success outside.

I also think that no matter who you are or what you've done, you deserve to live with dignity and access to health care, food, and reasonable shelter. We don't need prisons to be the Four Seasons but they should be clean, temperature controlled, and other basic physical and mental health needs should be met.

I haven't followed this particular case and didn't even remember who this guy was, so I'll refrain from commenting on these particular circumstances. From the sound of it, this is a person who had a lot of other options and chose to harm people, and those are the people I have the least sympathy for.

[tacokick]

Sept 11, 2023 19:30:22 GMT -5 kiminky said:

Sept 11, 2023 19:15:21 GMT -5 tacokick said:

I think there is less sympathy for rich white people like Masterson getting sentenced because we know that they can afford the best defense and if they get convicted we know it’s not because of systemic racism and a lack of access to resources. It’s mostly likely because they are actually really, really guilty.

I don't want people to think I am in here caping for rich, white people in the justice system. I just think if you look at one piece of the justice system, you need to look at all of it.

I don’t think anyone here disagrees with that!