Churches Closing - Restructuring? Experiences?

[simpsongal]

Has anyone been through this? Basically a complete transformation of your church?  Maybe a merger with another church, a sale of the building, rebranding re the denomination, something else?  Or just witnessed this in your community?

www.npr.org/2023/05/17/1175452002/church-closings-religious-affiliation

Article linked for context, the pandemic accelerated a trend, and churches are closing at very high rates.  

[livinitup]

I am a Catholic (specifically, lapsed) and the decline has mostly been ignored and papered over. Across town, my IL’s parish has quietly combined with 2 others (so 3 churches) for administrative and parish work. Basically, one pastor and office for all three. Their church was a Franciscan church which, due to the decline of that order of priests, got absorbed into the dioceses within the last 2 decades. Their former residence was sold (this was extremely quiet) and is no longer part of the parish. This seems like a temporary solution until that pastor ages out of being able to work. It’s a waiting game until more parishes simply close.

My Catholic family and education was extremely liberal with a strong grounding in acceptance, education and social Justice. In my lifetime, the loudest voices in Catholicism have been heavy influenced by the hardest lined, far right voices within the church and greater society. As a teen, (20+ years past Vatican 2), there was much momentum and hope that the church would continue to modernize and bring in new voices and progress. Turns out, the opposite happened, and although the church has a Jesuit pope, it has mostly retreated. I see a smaller, meaner, more ridge leadership that will just wither while abandoning its congregation. Those left, seem to be happy in their smaller numbers and outsized indignation.

My DD decided against confirmation. I get it. I can no longer defend the church. It didn’t have to be this way but here we are. I’d like to have a spiritual home for our family but I am struggling with having faith in a faith community.

[msmerymac]

The church my husband and I joined in 2015 is likely going down this route. When we joined, they were in a "just ok" financial position, but also celebrating 275 years as a congregation. I helped lead their Open and Affirming certification process (which gave us official standing in our denomination as an LGBTQIA-friendly church). But the pandemic and issues we had with an assistant pastor really accelerated the decline, and our main pastor retired in 2021. I've since left the consistory along with the consistory president because we've tried to have these discussions - what the next step will be since the church's endowment will run out of money likely by the end of 2024 - and people are still mainly like, "well maybe we can get more members?" No. There is currently a lay pastor in place (she's great, she's a member, her father was a prominent pastor, she went to seminary and is getting ordained) and they have less than a dozen active members, all over the age of 65 at this point.

So yeah, being that we're a main-line protestant denomination, the higher levels have resources and options for churches that close. Most likely, I think, if they get their shit together, current members will just move to another church, but some of them have been attending since birth, so I understand how difficult it is. The church also owns their property and the cemetery has a state historic designation. Another local church had to leave its historic building due to weather damage and is "renting" the church for their services, so there's a possibility they could take over the property, which needs more repairs and updates than the congregation can realistically handle.

So it's sad, but I'm also super over it, hence why I can't deal with it anymore.

We've started attending a church in a different denomination which is also LGBTQIA-friendly and actually more my husband's style (more of a traditional Roman Catholic style service). They have a lot of stuff going on, including multiple services per week, so we're hopeful they'll be around a while, lol.

[SusanBAnthony]

It is definitely happening with Catholic churches in rural areas here. I think protestant too but my aunt and uncle are Catholic so that's the specific one I'm aware of. They are in a small town and share one priest with multiple parishes. None of the priests in their area are from the US, which is also an interesting shift. My dad grew up with pretty much every family having a priest or nun and that's definitely not the case any more.

What I see with mainline protestant churches in the city is that they are shrinking and aging but hanging on. But I imagine a LOT will close in the next decade, or be handed over to a younger congregation. It seems like in the city the older mainline churches rent out/share space/share bills with a younger church that may not (usually isn't) associated with the owning church.

One was in the news here recently- I think it was a Presbyterian but not sure. They did a peaceful handover of the building, gave it to the new growing church and closed down the old one (maybe they rent the space back now? I can't remember).

I'm any case it's definitely a shift happening.

[W.T.Faulkner]

This is very common in the archdiocese of Philadelphia, especially for parishes located in and immediately outside of the city.

I didn’t see this mentioned in the article, but part of the problem for the archdiocese of Philadelphia has been the sheer number and size of the settlements it has had to pay out to victims of sexual abuse. I feel for the regular parishioners and those who depend on the archdiocese for services, who are now also the secondary victims of these priests and their co-conspirators who covered up their crimes for years. But the archdiocese has reached the “find out” portion after fucking around for a hundred years, so it’s hard to garner any sympathy whatsoever for their leaders. If you choose not to protect your children, there eventually won’t be any children to protect.

[jinkies]

My family has attended the same small church for generations.

It was already very small and struggling, but covid definitely hurt the church even worse.

My mom is so invested in the church community and I feel a little bad, but I don't believe that there is a future for their church and I think that the best course of action would be to combine with another local small church (or multiple small churches) to build up a reasonably sized congregation again.

Unfortunately I don't think that's even on the table as an idea-- instead they are actively trying to fundraise for capital improvements to a building that will probably be empty within 10-15 years.

ETA: it's a presbyterian church. I'm not sure if the decision to combine would be made by the congregation or by the Presbytery that oversees all the local churches.

[macmars45]

The church I grew up attending is likely heading this way. It was Presbyterian but they left that denomination in 2011(ish). The church is now a Covenant Church. I'd say 98% of the members/attendees are over age 65. Attendance is dropping. Rapidly.

I don't attend church anymore at all but I have feelings about that. I have so many god memories tied to that church and so much history. My grandparents were founding members back in the 50s. I spent much of my childhood there at least 2-3x/week for various functions/events. Most of my aunts & uncles, my parents, siblings and I all got married there.

They say they're LGBTQIA friendly. In a words only kind of way unfortunately.

[scm1011]

My childhood parish (Catholic) absorbed the parish of a neighboring town, but from driving by on weekends there are still cars overflowing the parking lot onto neighboring streets and a quick look at this week's bulletin says they brought in $80k in offerings in August so seems like they're doing well. They harbored one of the pedophile priests highlighted in the Spotlight scandal for YEARS (and have the blood of the suicide of one of my classmates on their hands) so I wish nothing more than for them to fuck off into oblivion, but alas...

I grew up very Catholic but am now an atheist.

[stemmie]

I've seen quite a bit of this in the community.

A number of the Roman Catholic Parish Churches have been closed with the congregation incorporated into a nearby parish. The parish schools are typically consolidated and given a new name when this happens.

I have also seen a few local churches change affiliations from one sect of Protestantism to another sect within that denomination. The Presbyterian in my mom's town changed from the more progressive PCUSA to the conservative PCA.

In my town, the more progressive Lutheran church had a mass defection when a lesbian of color was named pastor. These people seeded a new congregation in the next town over.

The United Church of Christ in my town abandoned that governing body and is no longer affiliated with any particular demomination describing themselves as "reformed".

The big Baptist Church in town moved to a new location on the outskirts and renamed themselves. They sold their church and parsonage to an Orthodox Jewish congregation. Another non-denominational Protestant church closed a few years ago and a "modern- Conservative" Jewish congregation was seeded there from a bigger congregation 20 miles away.

[candreco]

Not firsthand, but another church in my denomination (PCUSA) somewhat recently (it may have actuallly been pre-COVID) decided that their current numbers didn't justify the size of their facility, and that the property would be used more consistently with their faith as affordable housing- literally love thy neighbor. They sold at a pretty low price to local government, with the caveat that they would get a small multi-use space in the new development.

My own church has actually had several splits and re-merges in its 250 year due to politics, increasing and decreasing congregation sizes, etc. We definitely had a downsing during COVID but it's a historical church in a pretty sweet location with a progressive congregation, and I think that's given it some resiliency.

[msmerymac]

I did read this interview Rachel Martin did with Perry Bacon Jr on wanting some kind of community that isn't necessarily religious, which matches with the decline of churches:
www.npr.org/2023/09/10/1198509609/the-search-for-a-church-that-isnt-a-church

And here's Perry Bacon's original article (gift link):
wapo.st/3LjSqxQ

[sakoro]

The Presbyterian church (PCUSA) I grew up in used to be full of young families 20/30 years ago but now is almost all elderly. Back in the day my hometown was full of military families and joining a church was a key way of getting engaged in the community and finding friends for the adults and lower-cost activities for the kids. Now there are so many other ways to meet people and build community (meetup/ social media groups). Also churches seemed to rely on unpaid (mostly female) volunteers to operate activities and with the high cost of living, you need two well-paid spouses working full time jobs to get by.

The evangelical churches appear to be doing better but I’m not sure how many people stick around long term. Many people (including me) won’t go near them due to general anti-immigrant sentiment, support of Trump and focus on abortion/ anti-gay rights/ anti-trans.

ETA: interesting how many of us are talking about Presbyterian churches.

[simpsongal]

Sept 11, 2023 8:48:35 GMT -5 candreco said:

Not firsthand, but another church in my denomination (PCUSA) somewhat recently (it may have actuallly been pre-COVID) decided that their current numbers didn't justify the size of their facility, and that the property would be used more consistently with their faith as affordable housing- literally love thy neighbor. They sold at a pretty low price to local government, with the caveat that they would get a small multi-use space in the new development.

My own church actually has actually had several splits and re-merges in its 250 year due to politics, increasing and decreasing congregation sizes, etc. We definitely had a downsing during COVID but it's a historical church in a pretty sweet location with a progressive congregation, and I think that's given it some resiliency.

I kind of love this idea - like I'd love if we could sell the building and property and covenant that it be used for affordable housing.  

I appreciate seeing all the responses.  It was jarring to hear this is happening but not surprising (if that makes sense).  I'm glad that our church council is exploring ideas for major transformation, rather than clinging to something that's unsustainable and not likely to happen.   

[simpsongal]

Sept 11, 2023 8:49:48 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

I did read this interview Rachel Martin did with Perry Bacon Jr on wanting some kind of community that isn't necessarily religious, which matches with the decline of churches:
www.npr.org/2023/09/10/1198509609/the-search-for-a-church-that-isnt-a-church

And here's Perry Bacon's original article (gift link):
wapo.st/3LjSqxQ

My Pastor talked a lot about this article on Sunday - he said he's got a long email exchange going w/various clergy, rabbis, etc.  Thanks for linking these!

[circa1978]

This is a big thing in St. Louis right now, which has traditionally had a very large Catholic population. Because our private schools are also dominated by Catholic schools, it is impacting some of my friends' kids. About 40 parishes will close. I think the elementary school my mom attended is closing but her high school is doing fine. My elementary school and the parish we would attend if I weren't a heathen are unaffected. I could go on at length about the problems with the church but it has been very interesting to me - someone who has not attended Mass since the early 90s - tas my friends and family have been alienated from it one by one, including my brother, who had planned to become a priest, my mom's best friend, who had been a nun, and my mother, who is possibly the most devout person I know and who attended all Catholic schools, colleges and taught in Catholic schools for 20 years. Like, these are core Catholics and none of them attend church and all of them have a serious problem with its direction. My mother in particular is very intentional in saying she sees herself as Catholic but it is the church and its direction she is boycotting. If the church can't keep them, it is f'd, IMO. 

[candreco]

Sept 11, 2023 9:08:42 GMT -5 simpsongal said:

Sept 11, 2023 8:48:35 GMT -5 candreco said:

Not firsthand, but another church in my denomination (PCUSA) somewhat recently (it may have actuallly been pre-COVID) decided that their current numbers didn't justify the size of their facility, and that the property would be used more consistently with their faith as affordable housing- literally love thy neighbor. They sold at a pretty low price to local government, with the caveat that they would get a small multi-use space in the new development.

My own church actually has actually had several splits and re-merges in its 250 year due to politics, increasing and decreasing congregation sizes, etc. We definitely had a downsing during COVID but it's a historical church in a pretty sweet location with a progressive congregation, and I think that's given it some resiliency.

I kind of love this idea - like I'd love if we could sell the building and property and covenant that it be used for affordable housing.  

I appreciate seeing all the responses.  It was jarring to hear this is happening but not surprising (if that makes sense).  I'm glad that our church council is exploring ideas for major transformation, rather than clinging to something that's unsustainable and not likely to happen.   

I looked it up because I wasn't totally sure of the details and timing- it was pre-COVID but I think still relevant to the discussion around declining membership.  Here's a good article on what they did faithandleadership.com/affordable-housing-rises-where-church-building-once-stood

My church has hosted a couple of weddings for their members when they've wanted a more traditional location

[circa1978]

An interesting question that comes from this that I recently had in my book club is...what replaces church in helping us form community? We've joined our local ethical society and it has filled a huge gap my husband (a Lutheran) felt in his life. I never cared for church even as a child so I don't miss it, but even though he is an atheist, he wants to sing and meet with people in community and volunteer and have a "place." Not every community has something like an ethical society though, and even its numbers are waning.

[simpsongal]

candreco, thanks for sharing - extra relevant since we're in Northern Virginia too. I shared it w/someone on the committee. TY!

[SusanBAnthony]

Sept 11, 2023 9:25:20 GMT -5 circa1978 said:

An interesting question that comes from this that I recently had in my book club is...what replaces church in helping us form community? We've joined our local ethical society and it has filled a huge gap my husband (a Lutheran) felt in his life. I never cared for church even as a child so I don't miss it, but even though he is an atheist, he wants to sing and meet with people in community and volunteer and have a "place." Not every community has something like an ethical society though, and even its numbers are waning.

I grew up in liberal Methodist churches and am not religious now but feel the same as your H. A few liberal church members that we have social connections with have shared that a LOT of attendees totally don't believe the religion part at all and are just there for the singing and community.

We've thought about joining a UU church for that reason but they are 20-25 minutes drive from our house and the thought of devoting my entire Sunday morning to church is utterly unappealing. And forget a weekday evenings.

So basically I have perfectly good options but am too lazy to actually go.

[litskispeciality]

I grew up going to Catholic church at the town hall in my (rural/small town. Eventually that stopped and everyone was told to go to the physical church in the next town over. I was confirmed (my parents choice), and did the years of CCD required for confirmation at the physical church.

My dad eventually came back to physical church after my mom passed at a third church so to speak (different town than the ones mentioned above), but that one has since closed. Pre-COVID they really pressed the parishioners for money, like almost to a gross level during announcements before the service was over. To be fair they at least had used pews from another church, and listed "all expenses" (I hope they were honest) in the bulletin so you knew why they needed so much more money. It was still annoying to be hit up every week. It's a little sad they closed as it was near the senior community where my dad lives, and they had a bus than drove to the 4 PM mass.

Now my dad watches church online every week because they senior community never rescheduled the bus to another church (that's another issue, including one church has a lot of stairs to the inside). Someone comes by once a week to offer communion in person, schedule permitting. Big church staff and priest shortage.

Overall it's an issue in my area. Several Catholic schools have closed the doors in one school, and merged with another under a new name. Another private Catholic (I'm going to get this wrong) made a change with the diocese so that they could have more freedom over their spending. There are other churches that have closed and merged with others in my area (different state from my dad), but I'm not as familiar with those as I didn't grow up here.

I tried to go back to a church after my mom passed several years ago. Turns out it was part of a private Catholic school. They were welcoming in that they didn't treat me weird, but I never felt like part of a community like the way my dad's physical church did. I don't go to church for a lot of reasons, but having a welcoming committee for new members goes a long way. I understand the strain of finding volunteers to run that.

[litskispeciality]

SusanBAnthony, I had a friend that went to a UU for the same reasons, music, choir and community, but in a really liberal environment, including a female leader. They were very close geographically, and single/no kids, so they "had more time" to commit. They later moved to another state and stopped going, probably due to lack of physical options in a more rural state.

[jinkies]

Sept 11, 2023 9:25:20 GMT -5 circa1978 said:

An interesting question that comes from this that I recently had in my book club is...what replaces church in helping us form community? We've joined our local ethical society and it has filled a huge gap my husband (a Lutheran) felt in his life. I never cared for church even as a child so I don't miss it, but even though he is an atheist, he wants to sing and meet with people in community and volunteer and have a "place." Not every community has something like an ethical society though, and even its numbers are waning.

This is a really interesting question. 

I think about this in terms of my family. 

My mom is very involved in her church. She considers herself religious, but she is more culturally Christian as opposed to have a particularly deep or thoughtful spiritual life (sorry Mom). The church is a huge social outlet for her, and has been as far back as I remember. She goes to a "women's lunch" at church every Wednesday, she has a group of friends that at one time formed a committee at church and still socialize together regularly outside of church, she goes to every picnic and Friday night social that the church offers. She is involved in a few committees (doing things like organizing a church BBQ fundraiser) that she seems to enjoy. I hate to say it, but very little of what she does through the church is particularly religious-- she doesn't do a lot of bible studies or even "living church" type volunteer outreach. 

For her, the local senior citizen center probably offers similar opportunities for the community she finds at church.

I think it's harder to identify that outlet for people in their 30s, 40s, 50s. I know many families who have found a close community of friends within their kids activities (things like travel teams, marching band, or theater where they are spending huge amounts of time together). That often comes with a volunteer aspect-- working together to prep baseball fields, work the snackstand, paint backdrops and sew costumes-- helps fulfill the need to feel like you are serving a community. It's more transient than a church though, since it's unusual for people to continue involvement after their kids age out.

It feels like you need to piecemeal more-- find a volunteer organization you like, and then also a choir to participate in, and then also seek out casual socialization opportunities. And who has time for that on top of work and home and kids? I really can't think of a single organization that offers all the opportunities that a church or even a senior center does, that is targeted at middle age people.

[expectantsteelerfan]

Sept 11, 2023 9:25:20 GMT -5 circa1978 said:

An interesting question that comes from this that I recently had in my book club is...what replaces church in helping us form community? We've joined our local ethical society and it has filled a huge gap my husband (a Lutheran) felt in his life. I never cared for church even as a child so I don't miss it, but even though he is an atheist, he wants to sing and meet with people in community and volunteer and have a "place." Not every community has something like an ethical society though, and even its numbers are waning.

I had never heard of an ethical society before.  I wish we had those around here because that is something I think I would definitely participate in and encourage my children to as well. 

Over on the other place, there was a question recently about your ideal volunteer opportunity, and I posted about how I'm actively looking for a volunteer position currently but taking my time to really consider what would fit because I've committed to things that have ultimately been more stress than anything in the past and I want something that is meaningful to me.  When I was younger, I actually used to help out with youth groups at church, and that is the most meaningful volunteering I've ever done, but I am staunchly atheist now, so I couldn't do that now for any religious group whatsoever.  But I'd love to help volunteer at a safe space for teens that promotes social justice, inclusivity, and fun (though I don't have the energy or resources to start one unfortunately).  

[SusanBAnthony]

Sept 11, 2023 10:57:25 GMT -5 expectantsteelerfan said:

Sept 11, 2023 9:25:20 GMT -5 circa1978 said:

An interesting question that comes from this that I recently had in my book club is...what replaces church in helping us form community? We've joined our local ethical society and it has filled a huge gap my husband (a Lutheran) felt in his life. I never cared for church even as a child so I don't miss it, but even though he is an atheist, he wants to sing and meet with people in community and volunteer and have a "place." Not every community has something like an ethical society though, and even its numbers are waning.

I had never heard of an ethical society before.  I wish we had those around here because that is something I think I would definitely participate in and encourage my children to as well. 

Over on the other place, there was a question recently about your ideal volunteer opportunity, and I posted about how I'm actively looking for a volunteer position currently but taking my time to really consider what would fit because I've committed to things that have ultimately been more stress than anything in the past and I want something that is meaningful to me.  When I was younger, I actually used to help out with youth groups at church, and that is the most meaningful volunteering I've ever done, but I am staunchly atheist now, so I couldn't do that now for any religious group whatsoever.  But I'd love to help volunteer at a safe space for teens that promotes social justice, inclusivity, and fun (though I don't have the energy or resources to start one unfortunately).  

If you have a UU church near you, see if they have a youth group. That would probably be a good fit. It isn't religious despite being called a church (from what I have experienced).

[sent]

I'm not a Christian so I don't have any personal experiences. There is an old church on my street. I just looked up what denomination this church is (Reformed) and see that it's mainly being used by a Christian group of Indonesian descent. That makes sense, I've seen them outside the church on Sundays. I don't know if they own it because the church was definitely built by white people at least 100 years ago so the Indonesian group isn't the one who built it. I've also seen an Indian Christian group hold services regularly in this church on a weekday so I'm assuming they rent the space from whoever the owner is. Elsewhere when I drive around, I see signs in Spanish, Chinese and Korean stuck in the lawn of a big traditional looking Protestant church building that have a day + time listed for when their services are held. Sometimes the other group is on the main sign so I can only assume the two groups share the church building with one renting it from the other.

[jeaniebueller]

Sept 11, 2023 9:25:20 GMT -5 circa1978 said:

An interesting question that comes from this that I recently had in my book club is...what replaces church in helping us form community? We've joined our local ethical society and it has filled a huge gap my husband (a Lutheran) felt in his life. I never cared for church even as a child so I don't miss it, but even though he is an atheist, he wants to sing and meet with people in community and volunteer and have a "place." Not every community has something like an ethical society though, and even its numbers are waning.

Its an interesting issue, i was estranged from church for many years and recently rejoined and the community aspect was part of it. My H asked me why I was so big on going to church and I told him--its nice to have some quiet reflection on a sunday morning. I'm not sure what the answer it is other contexts. 

[krystee]

My childhood Catholic church has merged with another one. So far they have maintained both church campuses because people lost their minds about one closing, but I have a feeling they will close the one that does not have a school associated with it within a couple years. It doesn’t make sense to have two giant church buildings with services half empty at both.

I found a very liberal, affirming (not Catholic) church and joined it primarily for community (I joined various groups more than I went to actual services), but over time, my faith has been strengthened and now I go for both reasons. I had tried other things for community like book club and things, but I couldn’t find anything else for the whole family.

[winnied]

I live in a heavily Christian area with both Protestants and Catholics. Many of our closures happened 10-15 years ago because of our local economy having issues and most of it was schools consolidating. Our two main Christian communities are Roman Catholic and a small (but significant here) Reformed denomination. I only know of 1 church that has closed and it was literally one block away from 2 other churches of the same faith in an urban area. The area became more commercial over decades v. residential, so it made sense.

My husband's denomination (the large Reformed one here) is in a bit of crisis. It's a combination of it being very heritage-based and people moving away, marrying into other faiths and people of different backgrounds. The church doesn't appeal to people not already part of it/part of that heritage, especially when there are bigger, mainline Protestant denominations that seem just as good, if you will.

That church also made a decision that is viewed very against the LGBTQ community and, as such, a number of its churches have threatened to leave and either become non-denominational or join the other denomination that is basically identical to this one that has a shared heritage.

My Catholic parish is thriving with young families but my parents' parish, just down the road, is interesting to watch. They're building out their school and an early childhood center but mass attendance is definitely way down. I think parents with money started to send their kids to that parish school but don't intend on practicing the Catholic faith.

I'd be curious to know if tithing/financial contributions have decreased over decades in terms of percentage of households contributing, and at what percentage.

[nomad100]

I know some churches here are struggling as the community leans more and more center and to the left. The Christian Reformed Church in NA just put their headquarters property up for sale. That news made me snicker a bit since they were such a huge force in my area growing up and I love that they are struggling. After their doubling down on anti-LGBTQIA+ policies, they can rot.

Where I live is mainly evangelical and catholic churches but a Unity Spiritual Community just moved to location really close to me after two groups merged so they could cut costs. I am hoping to stop by this Sunday. My old church (Disciples of Christ) just isn't working for me. I am not keen on the whole mission stuff. Throw in that I am middle aged, divorced, childless by choice and the congregation is mostly old folks my parents age or young families and I don't feel like I fit. My old church has struggled but it seems like they are doing better since they are definitely more liberal than some of the other local churches and that seems to be drawing more people in. They just got a new woman pastor (who replaced another woman pastor) so that may help as well since so many local churches have old white men as leaders.

I get the desire for a local community. I have online communities and thank goodness for them during COVID, but it would be nice to have a local group to connect with. I also am an only child so after my parents pass, it will just be me since my local cousins are all MAGAts and so it is a hard pass hanging out with them. It would be nice to have a community to grow old in/with so to speak.

[loira]

The church I attended as a child had to be torn down to allow the city to widen the trans Canada that runs through it. It amalgamated with another Anglican church nearby. Most of the congregation moved over I think, but this was already at a time when my parents were going to church less and less so it's hard to say how they handled the extra people.