MOOKS(14-yr): Fair consequence?

[sju]

We are struggling. She’s a good kid but she has become very mean to me and her older brother. Often cruel with her comments about an illness I suffer. Refuses to get out of bed on time and doesn’t care that it affects the rest of us (H or I, whoever is dropping off, often arrives a bit late for work because of her). Refuses to help around the house.

This weekend is homecoming and she has been planning to hang out with a friend instead of going to the dance. She rarely hangs out outside of school and band activities.  Turns out the friend’s family is going to one of the local theme parks. H and I do not feel she has earned the privilege of us paying $100 for the day but at the same time, we are debating about whether it’s too harsh (only because of the homecoming aspect).

I’d love to read other opinions.

[dochas]

I'm sorry, this behavior sounds really difficult. It's easy to think I could be a hard ass when I'm not the one going through it so I won't just say no way. Also, homecoming wasn't a thing where I grew up so It has no importance to me at all. BUT, she's not interested in it either so I would not equate a trip to a theme park with homecoming. It would be really hard for me to hand over a wad of money to someone who was abusive to me. I hope she comes around and realizes her behavior is unacceptable.

[notsopicky]

Nope. No way. She is a member of your family and as such is expected to act in a respectful participatory manner. If my kid was doing any of that, there'd be no electronics, no videogames, no hanging out with friends, for a while, unless & until he learns that we don't treat each other like that, that we don't say hurtful things repeatedly to each other.

[charlatti]

How have you been handling the behaviors up to now? If you don’t pay for her to go, will she connect that to her actions? I don’t think my 14YO would necessarily expect us to drop $100 on a last minute thing, but if we didn’t, she wouldn’t think of it as a punishment. It doesn’t seem like an entirely logical consequence to me.

If only you could go back in time to make the ticket contingent on a week or so of getting up on time or something like that. Would she follow through if you said she could go, but she’d have to work to pay you back if she doesn’t do better behavior-wise next week?

[UMaineTeach]

My initial reaction is that you shouldn’t take away something you would have allowed if she was being nice, because she’s being unkind in the (recent) past.

Like, she has to know ahead of time that losing it is on the line. Then most assuredly lose it.

Second reaction is earning the trip by being kind. Give credit when she is nice, not earn anything (or lose points, not my favorite but sometimes it’s needed) for being hurtful. Need x points by y deadline.

[VillainV]

Does she have any of her own money? If so, I’d maybe offer to split it with her. I don’t think I’d pay for $100 for any single-day activity for a teenager as long as they had some of their own money.

Personally, I think the question of the theme park day should be addressed separately from her long ongoing behavior. To suddenly decide to punish her with no warning for something she’s been doing for a while, two days before something big she wants to do, will seem to come out of nowhere for her. But you do need to address it, and it absolutely should include consequences for her behavior.

[Deleted]

Having older kids, I will say some of it is most likely the age. But, some of it also sounds like possible depression to me.

I would not take away a social opportunity. I would address her mean inconsiderate behavior separately. Probably you will have to address it many many many times over the next few years. I would also be on the look out for other signs of depression: not getting out of bed, avoiding social situations, lack of interest in doing previously enjoyable activities, anger, meanness, explosiveness, sadness, withdrawing, only wearing long sleeves, etc.

[savan]

I will echo others and say this is normal, though sucky, for the age. My 14 year old DD is super mean. What I have started doing, which is super effective, is not doing anything for her in the moment she is being mean. You want dinner, a ride to a friend’s house, help with homework, a new dress, etc.? Nope! Not while you are being a straight up asshole to me.

It’s probably too late for this weekend, but in the future I would tell her in the week leading up to the event that I will not take her or pay for her if she does not get up at a decent time in the morning and treat us all with respect. We saw an immediate change in behavior as soon as DD knew I meant it.

[wanderingback]

What are her usual consequences for being mean?
To me it sounds like it’s too late to just randomly take something away, but maybe I’m misunderstanding the situation.
I think if it’s been clear all along that if she does X thing then X gets taken away, which can include a social outing that’s totally fair. But if all of a sudden you tell her she was an asshole last week so now she can’t hang out with a friend this weekend then I don’t think the consequence will have the intended affects.

[nicolewi]

I agree with VillainV. While i think the current behavior should be addressed, I don't know if I would suddenly take away the theme park. Then again, how did this suddenly go from "hanging out" to a $100 ticket?

I might ask her to earn some or all of the money on her own if she would like to go by doing certain chores, which you could "pay" for either by job or by time (certain rate per hour).

[sju]

Thanks all for the feedback and tips. I will try to address some of the questions. I learned about the theme park today so no opportunity to give her warnings. The girls had been planning to get together at one of the houses or just go somewhere they could walk around.

The behavior has gotten progressively worse in the last year. We had her with a counselor for a while prior to that trying to address some anxiety that started after I got sick.

As far as prior consequences we have taken away iPad, or some other treats. Nothing seems to get through. There are just so many arguments and my son complains that he’s getting stressed with all the tension. It’s hard.

[luckystar2]

You say she is generally a good kid. I think the meanness and not wanting to help out somewhat comes with the territory of teens. My kid has always been quick to snap at us etc. but certainly teen years have gotten worse. Even some of her friends who were always super sweet and nice to their parents - their moms have told me how mean and cranky they’ve gotten.

IDK for a kid that is normally good I give some leeway on the crappy mean teen attitude. But I do agree that I really have no desire to do things or spend $ on her if she is being a jerk to me. We’ve had many discussions about how if you want people to do things for you, you can’t continuously treat them poorly.

As for this particular situation, unless you specified this as a consequence I wouldn’t just suddenly take it away. But I would have some discussions about her behavior and how this doesn’t make you want to spend the $ to let her go. and in the future these things will rely on decent behavior.

As a side note - my kid gets very angry/mean when she is anxious. Anxiety definitely comes out as anger in both of us. Teen life is fraught with a lot of anxiety to begin with but she definitely deals with some extra anxiety. Just mentioning it as some potential things to look out for. If this is new for her maybe something is going on. Likely it’s a lot of just hormones but hormones and anxiety can make for some crabby teens.

[hermione]

I think not funding the theme park IS a natural consequence. She knows she’s been mean. She knows she makes other people late. Say no and tell her that her recent behavior doesn’t warrant an expensive outing.


ETA: Fixed spelling.

[nicolewi]

Oct 12, 2023 20:52:40 GMT -5 luckystar2 said:

As a side note - my kid gets very angry/mean when she is anxious. Anxiety definitely comes out as anger in both of us. Teen life is fraught with a lot of anxiety to begin with but she definitely deals with some extra anxiety. Just mentioning it as some potential things to look out for. If this is new for her maybe something is going on. Likely it’s a lot of just hormones but hormones and anxiety can make for some crabby teens.

I agree with this. And when my kids are in an anxiety spiral, there is NOTHING that really helps until they settle down again. Counselor said it's like they are just seeing red and can't even rationalize their behavior until things are more under control.

[ECB]

Oct 12, 2023 22:33:15 GMT -5 hermione said:

I think not finding the theme park IS a natural consequence. She knows she’s been mean. She knows she makes other people late. Say no and tell her that her recent behavior doesn’t warrant an expensive outing.

this. It’s also last minute to be asking you to fork over $100. I’d tell her that if she wants to go, she has to cover the cost. (Assuming she has some $$ of her own. While DS worked this summer, he already has some money saved up from gifts, allowance, etx)

[momof2]

If your kid is being mean about your illness and you know she has anxiety about this, I would consider whether she needs anxiety meds more than punishment.

[expectantsteelerfan]

I too have a 14 year old who is struggling with teen behavior. I find myself having to ask, then ask again, then yell, then yell again, then threaten before he actually does the very simple thing I want him to do (for everything I want him to do) and it's exhausting and frustrating, and his response is to roll his eyes at me because 'he's busy' because his time is obviously more important than mine right now. His therapist assures me this is normal behavior now but we continue to talk about it at pretty much every appointment. I wish I had more advice other than picking things that really are 'time sensitive' and being super clear about getting attention for those things (i.e. interrupting what they are doing at the time and saying this needs to be done RIGHT NOW) and setting the expectation, and being clear about what the consequence will be if it's not done AT THE TIME.

So yeah, I also would not take away the amusement park because the expectation and consequence wasn't set up ahead of time. But I would tie fun things she is looking forward to in the future to stuff.

As for the getting up in the morning, we deal with that too, and for us, the natural consequence is having to go to bed earlier. If you can't get yourself up today, then tonight you have an earlier bedtime (with activities I know that's not always possible, so sometimes we do something like take phone/video games away at night/after school away too if needed).

[Poppy]

Oct 12, 2023 22:33:15 GMT -5 hermione said:

I think not funding the theme park IS a natural consequence. She knows she’s been mean. She knows she makes other people late. Say no and tell her that her recent behavior doesn’t warrant an expensive outing.


ETA: Fixed spelling.

I agree with this.

[jeaniebueller]

If she went to homecoming, would you have paid for it?

[joy]

Have you explained to her before this moment that if her attitude doesn’t improve then this experience is in jeopardy? If not, then I would start there.

If you are just dropping this out of the blue because it’s a $100 experience that you just learned about and thinking “oh she’s been difficult, this is a no,” I would find that kind of unfair, actually.

I don’t know if homecoming is this weekend, but if it is then I sit her down and explain her behavior is not great and she needs to work on it. Yup, you can go to the amusement park, but if she doesn’t improve herself in some time limit following then she’s paying us back for her ticket.

[rhian]

At 14, I'd talk to her about exactly what you posted - that it's hard for you to want to pay $100 to allow her to do a fun outing when she has not been being a very kind and cooperative family member. And that if it were not last minute, you would have asked her to to show that she can be kind and cooperative leading up to the event, but since there's not enough time for that, ask her to participate in coming up with a plan for how she will show you that she has earned the right to go after the fact, support she needs from you to follow through, and consequences if she does not.

[jobae1234]

If you can comfortably afford the $100, or if you would have spent $100 on a homecoming dress, I’d send her anyway.

Part of what can happen with teens is that if they feel punishments are arbitrary or vindictive, then they only get angrier and meaner. It has to make sense to them. So if she’s being mean and then asks for a ride and you say “no, I don’t drive people around who treat me like dirt,” that’s something for her to think about. But if you say “you were really mean 3 days ago about my illness so I’m not paying for you,” that’s going to feel like a trap. Also, she doesn’t socialize enough so unless she knows in advance that an activity is on the line, don’t take it away.

My kid is nice to everyone but me so I get it. I have had the “my obligation is to feed you, clothe you, and house you- but I do not need to hang out with you or buy you toys or arrange play dates or do any of the fun extras that I do, if you’re going to talk to me that way” talk many a time (and she’s only 7, I’m dreading the teen years!).

Do a whole lot more disengaging. Tell her to walk away from you. Walk away from her. Like just get up and leave. Tell her to make her own dinner or what have you. And if guilt about your illness has stopped you from cracking down on those comments, put that in the rear view.

My older kid used to be late a lot. We instituted a policy where if she made people late, she would get an extra chore that afternoon. Scrub a toilet. Vacuum the whole house. You take from the family, you give back to the family. It was effective.

I’d probably tell her I was tempted to say no because of her behavior, just to put her on notice a little bit.