What is reasonable here? 5 year old bully

[agnes]

So I haven’t had to deal with a situation like this before. I’m curious what are reasonable expectations?

my friend’s 5 year old has a class bully. The bully has a history of being disruptive in the class. Last week it escalated to him choking friend’s 5 year old (sounded like a choke hold or headlock?) and 2 teachers having to pry him off of her. The bully thought it was hilarious apparently, laughing the whole time. Friend’s daughter minimized it and didn’t want bully to get in trouble.

After talking with the teachers, friend emailed the principal explaining the incident and asking what actions to expect so this doesn’t happen again. (It sounded like the teachers are at a loss with the kid and encouraged friend to email the principal) Principal replied back stating they have walkie talkies and phones to use in an emergency and would separate the two.

There was another incident yesterday. Bully punched friend’s daughter. Friend reached out to the principal again, principal basically blamed the behavior on the pandemic hampering their social skills/behavioral development. Principal also stated that they would be on playground to “personally ensure [friend’s daughter] is separated.”

Should anything else be done by the school? Should friend burn it down? Or wait it out?

UPDATES IN REPLIES

[sofamonkey]

I’m not sure if he right answer. However, I don’t think telling the target of repeated violent acts to “wait in out” or what the fuck ever is appropriate. I’d want to make sure they can prevent or avoid, not address as it is happening. What the actual fuck to the responses.

[fernweh]

I don’t know the right answer but have the bully’s parents been notified by the school that this is going on? What has their response been? Also is the school notifying friend about these incidents or is there only attention coming to it because daughter is telling her?

[dancingirl21]

I would be burning it down. No way is that the appropriate response by the principal. The poor kid has been choked and now punched in kindergarten? Absolutely not. Is the bully doing it to other kids too, or just targeting her? Either way the principal needs to be meeting with the parents of the bully and putting a plan in place. That principal should also be reassuring your friend that they will do everything in their power to keep that bully away from your friend's daughter.

[k3am]

Not the topic, but I hate the phrase bully for a 5 year old or young child. 5 year olds are still figuring life and acceptable behavior out, they are mimicking behaviors, they aren't inherently good or bad.

Is the kid's behavior acceptable? Nope, no way. Is the school's response acceptable? Nope, no way. As the parent of the kid being hurt, I'd be making it clear that the school needs to outline a viable plan for keeping my child safe and eliminating the potential for deliberate harm.

But I also feel for the 5 year old who needs some intervention and either the school or parent are unaware or seemingly uncaring. I hope/imagine that the school is working with this child and their parents directly, but because your friend is not that child's parent, they aren't privy to that information.

[7costanza]

There was a kid at my sons preschool who sounds a lot like this. Hitting, slamming doors on hands, he once kicked my son in the groin, etc etc. The teachers redirected as much as possible and did inform the parents each time. Unfortunately the mom seemed checked out and the dad once showed up to my sons bday party drunk so I don’t know how effective that was. They ended up moving away so that resolved it for us, in your friends case I would be insisting the bully be kept away from my kid at all times. No way is “wait it out” an acceptable response from the school, though I do have a great deal of sympathy for everyone involved here.

[meanie]

The school's response sucks and I would not be waiting anything out.

I would expect my child to be fully separated from this other child since the teachers seem unable to ensure my child's safety. I understand this may be a big ask logistically but that is the schools #1 duty when children are in their care.

I would not expect to be told anything regarding what punitive action has been taken or what conversations have been had with the parents of the other child.

Brushing things under the rug because of covid or their young ages is not acceptable, no student should have their learning environment threatened by physical or verbal attacks.

[Patsy Baloney]

Demand separation. It can come in many forms. If they’re not able to keep the kids separated in the classroom, I would ask that the kid victimizing my child be moved out of the classroom. I don’t imagine it would get to that point - I would expect they would bring in an aide or something similar if it was that dire.

I would also request that they not be in the same class in years to come. I’ve had to do this with my oldest for several kids. She’s had some piss poor luck with bullies through the years.

I will say - I have had to PUSH when my kids have experienced things like this at school. There’s simply too much going on and what is absolutely priority for one family is problem number 782 for teachers/admin.

[mrsukyankee]

A child doing those behaviours and laughing about them at 5 is a child who is not in a good place potentially at home. If there is a counsellor working at the school, I'd ask to talk to them as well, as it may end up being a mandated reporter issue. This child needs help and your friend's children need to be protected.

[pixy0stix]

My kid has an IEP for hitting etc. He has a social/emotional delay. He's in counseling, has a good home life etc. So let's leave the home life speculation out of it.

He started having issues in his class with hitting another kid who was having other issues in respecting boundaries. He ended up in the principal's office before I was notified. At which point I kindly reminded everyone involved of his IEP and that I need to be notified sooner rather than later so that I can deal with it at home and his counselor as well.

So... as a parent I'd get more involved with what was happening. Ask for more communication and updates. Ask how the situation will be handled in the future. I wouldn't burn it down, but I'd definitely be more persistent in communication and next steps.

[CurlyQ284]

Oct 18, 2023 12:49:30 GMT -5 Patsy Baloney said:

Demand separation. It can come in many forms. If they’re not able to keep the kids separated in the classroom, I would ask that the kid victimizing my child be moved out of the classroom. I don’t imagine it would get to that point - I would expect they would bring in an aide or something similar if it was that dire.

I would also request that they not be in the same class in years to come. I’ve had to do this with my oldest for several kids. She’s had some piss poor luck with bullies through the years.

I will say - I have had to PUSH when my kids have experienced things like this at school. There’s simply too much going on and what is absolutely priority for one family is problem number 782 for teachers/admin.

This is what I would do.
I'd say you were already supposed to keep them separated, clearly that didn't happen I want that kid moved to another class.

My kid had lots of issues and he acted out sometimes so I get being on the other side, but my kids issues were more directed at defying teachers etc. He didnt have it out for another kid, and it sounds like it's the same kid being targeted.

I also think choking escalates this. Hitting is one thing, choking is on a whole other level.

[VillainV]

School’s response sucks. This is a child who has needs that aren’t being met. Maybe there is a medical/psychological issue, or maybe the child needs accommodations that the school isn’t providing. Regardless of that, the other children in the class deserve to learn in a place that is safe for them.

My son was heavily bullied last year in 3rd grade. At first it was brushed off because the bully was a girl (“she probably has a crush” they said). As it went on she went from verbal taunting to physical bullying (she tried to strangle my son from behind with a metal water bottle), then she was suspended and I guess her parents sent her to a different school to finish off the year. This year she came back and pretty quickly went back to writing my sons name on a list in her notebook of kids who deserved to be “punished” and sending him threatening emails on the school network (which fortunately the school intercepted and removed before my son could see them).

In cases like this, the status quo doesn’t help anyone. The child who bullies isn’t helped by leaving things the way they are. The school and parents need to work together to get the child what they need to be successful, and if it’s not working, then they need to do something different. “Wait and see” isn’t safe. And I completely agree that in most cases like this a child who bullies isn’t really at fault.

[erbear]

My guess is that the other child (I am hesitant to call a 5 year old a bully for a variety of reasons) has an IEP and the school has to respond in a specific way (you cannot discipline a child for a manifestation of their disability -- kind of, but for this purpose). that said, school has to protect the other children. They should be requiring a wrap-around or separating the child from the others. I would not be burning it down, per se, but I would be talking to the principal about protecting my child from physical and emotional harm.

[soccermama]

As a parent, I would absolutely burn it down. Or at least be pushing for more of a resolution. I agree with pp, "wait and see" approach does not work in this situation. What if the kid does something even more violent the next time?!

[woot16]

So we had a similar situation in my daughter's classroom this year. The child punched a girl on the way to specials one day and it took two teachers to separate him. He was out for 2 days and then came back the next week and had an episode where he threw chairs and flipped desks. the teacher rushed the other students to the front of the room while he had his episode. This child has been in my daughter's class for a couple of years and he has had some disruptive behaviors like speaking out of turn or getting out of his chair - but never physical violence. I am not one to complain about things that happen but my daughter came home terrified which isn't like her so I sent an email to the teacher and just asked what did they have in place to protect the other children. She called me and then asked if she could forward my email to the principal. They eventually moved the child to another classroom. But what I learned from the teachers is that unfortunately there is a long process for these kids - they want to integrate 90% of students in mainstream classrooms, which makes sense. But due to budget cuts and lack of staff they can't have a para with every student who needs one. It's sad for everyone, the student who obviously has trouble regulating their emotions, the teachers who are dealing with that as well as teaching and keeping the other students safe. The teachers did encourage that parents send emails to administration as they need the documentation in order to make changes etc.

[dochas]

Burn it down. She's been choked and punched. That's more than enough. If they're prevented from even sending the child to the principal when it happens, then insist that he be moved to another class. Often there are multiple classes together at lunch and recess so make sure there are still procedures in place to keep him away from her in groups. When I was a lunch aide we had a principal who would have promised you she would personally supervise as well and she never left her office during lunch.

[jeaniebueller]

If I were 'friend', i would quit e-mailing them and meet the principal in person. Its one thing for kids to scuffle but another to be choked and punched by the same kid.

[arehopsveggies]

Id bet dollars to donuts this kid is having issues with many students and teachers can’t keep him separated from EVERYONE.

[thebreakfastclub]

Last year in 4th grade, a kid choked my son in the hallway. The principal called me immediately and let me know what happened and said they would be separated permanently.

[fivechickens]

Nope. The principals reaction is unacceptable. I would be raising hell.

[joy]

Wait, what?

Last week, something like this (less aggressive) happened at my daughter’s school. The children who were attacked were sent to the nurse and the child who was responsible was immediately taken to director of student services for ongoing intervention. It was handled swiftly and with decisive action.

Wtf to walkie talkies and wait and see? No, ma’am.

EDIT: kids involved were 7.

[somersault72]

I am guessing that like others have said the child must have an IEP or something because our school has a zero tolerance policy for things like that (which can also be problematic).

Still, it's not fair to her daughter to endure those things. I would have her call a meeting with the principal. There may not be anything they can do as far as punishment are disciplined for that child, but there should be SOMETHING in place to help her daughter feel protected/safer there.

[akayf]

Keep making noise. Like others have said, this student might have an IEP due to their behaviors. However, that does not give the kid a free pass. These behaviors are a form of communication for this kid and they are communicating that the current classroom setting is not working and the child needs more support/interventions. It takes A LOT of data for this to happen but things tend to happen faster when other kids get hurt. That’s probably why the teachers suggested your friend contact the principal.

I’m sorry for your friend and I’m sorry for the other child. They need more help to learn how to regulate themselves and I hope they get it.

[mae0111]

I agree that the wait and see approach is unacceptable. In my experience, if you ask for separation, your friend's daughter could be the one pulled out of her class, told to stay in from recess to avoid the other child, etc. So if there is a request for separation, it needs to be made VERY clear that your friend's daughter should not have her routine interrupted because of this other student.

We've had experiences at 2 different schools where the bullies (and when it was happening, the kids were old enough to know better - and they were, in fact, bullies) garnered much more sympathy than the victims, and the solutions proposed by the schools were to just remove DD1 from troubling situations. So she was to eat lunch alone, sit on a bench in the principal's office during recess, etc., because the teachers and admin couldn't/wouldn't keep her safe. I spent a lot of time at school and on the phone (COVID) when that was happening.

[penguingrrl]

I would absolutely bet that that child has an IEP and that they’re working on it. Yes, moving the child’s classroom will solve it for that one kid, but it’s likely that the struggle will continue since that child has needs that aren’t being met. The school has a duty to all students involved, and absolutely that child should be separated from a child they choked, not a question. But unless they address whatever is at the root that child is going to be moved from class to class because there will be similar issues.

As someone who has a child in an out of district placement and another who has an IEP, I’m hearing a great need for this child to have a para (either 1:1 or shared). My son has a shared aide and that changed things dramatically because she is able to intervene when necessary before things escalate to that level (and brought him from failing in 3rd grade to thriving now in 5th because his needs are met) and as of now is allowing him to do well in public school instead of moving to an out of district placement, which was on the table by the end of 3rd. I know that districts are struggling financially right now, but that doesn’t excuse not providing what a child needs, and it sounds like like this needs a para to protect them and the people around them.

[Jalapeñomel]

Oct 19, 2023 5:11:37 GMT -5 thebreakfastclub said:

Last year in 4th grade, a kid choked my son in the hallway. The principal called me immediately and let me know what happened and said they would be separated permanently.

Why is this happening! My son was also choked last year by a 5th grader (he was in 4th). 

[formerlyak]

There was a girl in DS’ third grade class who was doing stuff like this to many different kids. My kid had to have his jaw x-rayed after she nailed him in the face with a hard lunchbox. The school generally can’t tell you what is being done in the other end, just that something is being done. At least that is the rule here. I am close with our principal because I work with him and he explained that to me. A week or so after the jaw incident (she didn’t just hit DS she hit five kids that day), she was moved to a different classroom with a teacher who had a much different classroom management style. The girl is no longer hitting and is friendly and happy. DS has even commented that she is nice now. All that to say, we don’t know what is going on with the child or on the school’s end, but maybe just get some reassurance that it is going to be handled. I was all burn it down, but there was a plan in place that simply couldn’t be discussed with other families.

[Velar Fricative]

Oct 19, 2023 9:04:42 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

I would absolutely bet that that child has an IEP and that they’re working on it. Yes, moving the child’s classroom will solve it for that one kid, but it’s likely that the struggle will continue since that child has needs that aren’t being met. The school has a duty to all students involved, and absolutely that child should be separated from a child they choked, not a question. But unless they address whatever is at the root that child is going to be moved from class to class because there will be similar issues.

As someone who has a child in an out of district placement and another who has an IEP, I’m hearing a great need for this child to have a para (either 1:1 or shared). My son has a shared aide and that changed things dramatically because she is able to intervene when necessary before things escalate to that level (and brought him from failing in 3rd grade to thriving now in 5th because his needs are met) and as of now is allowing him to do well in public school instead of moving to an out of district placement, which was on the table by the end of 3rd. I know that districts are struggling financially right now, but that doesn’t excuse not providing what a child needs, and it sounds like like this needs a para to protect them and the people around them.

This sounds like something that would get a child here a 1:1 para (or 1:2/shared like you mentioned), but I never can remember whether this is a local/state thing or federal solution. I do think a 1:1 para would be ideal for a child that exhibits these behaviors. But if I were the OP's friend, that's not a decision I can make so I'd simply be advocating for separation/protection for my child and what the principal in the OP is saying isn't it. 

[penguingrrl]

Oct 19, 2023 10:16:40 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Oct 19, 2023 9:04:42 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

I would absolutely bet that that child has an IEP and that they’re working on it. Yes, moving the child’s classroom will solve it for that one kid, but it’s likely that the struggle will continue since that child has needs that aren’t being met. The school has a duty to all students involved, and absolutely that child should be separated from a child they choked, not a question. But unless they address whatever is at the root that child is going to be moved from class to class because there will be similar issues.

As someone who has a child in an out of district placement and another who has an IEP, I’m hearing a great need for this child to have a para (either 1:1 or shared). My son has a shared aide and that changed things dramatically because she is able to intervene when necessary before things escalate to that level (and brought him from failing in 3rd grade to thriving now in 5th because his needs are met) and as of now is allowing him to do well in public school instead of moving to an out of district placement, which was on the table by the end of 3rd. I know that districts are struggling financially right now, but that doesn’t excuse not providing what a child needs, and it sounds like like this needs a para to protect them and the people around them.

This sounds like something that would get a child here a 1:1 para (or 1:2/shared like you mentioned), but I never can remember whether this is a local/state thing or federal solution. I do think a 1:1 para would be ideal for a child that exhibits these behaviors. But if I were the OP's friend, that's not a decision I can make so I'd simply be advocating for separation/protection for my child and what the principal in the OP is saying isn't it. 

You're right that OPs friend can't control that, and I don't blame the friend for wanting their child away from this child. I just don't know that moving this child will help anyone except this child. Of course as the parent of the victim that's what I would push for, too. I just hope interventions are happening to help this child because if they're doing this in kindergarten they clearly need supports. Not sure which laws govern paras, but from what I can tell they're a fairly ubiquitous accommodation.

[agnes]

Mini update since I haven't talked her her yet today. But as of yesterday, the suggestion is to move the daughter to a different school (is there only one kinder class?? will have to ask). Friend has escalated to director of the district. Also, one of the teachers told her that the kid is supposed to get a personal aide, but it will take a couple months. So yeah, it sounds like an IEP is in the works from what you guys are saying.

I've been kinda holding back on telling her to burn it down. I was pissed on her behalf. There's not much I can do except offer support and suggestions.