another special ed question-- WWYD

[jinkies]

ETA 2: Update as of January in the replies.

ETA: update in replies

DD is 12, in 6th grade in our public elementary school. She has had an IEP for math (and reading, but this is about math) since 2nd grade. She went to a private school for dyslexia in 4th and 5th grade where the math instruction was slower and allowed use of a lot of resources like a multiplication chart. Through 5th grade, she has always been doing grade level math, just with slower instruction/resources/smaller groups/more assistance. 

When they did the placement testing to return to public, they recommended that she should be in the special education room for math, which was completely expected. I agreed. Unfortunately, due to the overwhelming amount of information and decisions to make about the transition back to public school, I somehow missed (or at least it didn't register as a big deal at the time) that she would be repeating 5th grade math. 

She HATES the special education room placement. The kids are largely (almost exclusively?) there for behavioral reasons and she finds it distracting, disruptive, and difficult to focus. Ironically the class where she is supposed to get the most individualized attention, she feels like she is getting the least because the other kids in the room require so much of the teachers' bandwidth. She is also complaining about repeating what she already learned last year, and that the pace is very slow (again, mostly because the teachers need so much time to deal with specific needs of other children).

In full disclosure: she is extremely weak on her math facts because she was allowed charts. This is a big reason she was recommended for special ed. She didn't do well on the placement tests because she wasn't allowed charts and does not have the expected fact fluency. At some point (unclear to me whether this was with or without supports) they did baseline testing and she was only getting about 30% of 5th grade math problems correct. Her IEP math goal is to do 5th grade math with 60% accuracy by the next annual IEP meeting, which will be September of 7th grade. 

I feel like I made a huge mistake by agreeing to let her repeat 5th grade math. Knowing the way the system is set up, there is simply no way for her to ever get back to grade level instruction. And for her part, DD is promising that she will do ANYTHING to get out of the special education placement. At the same time, if that's the level she's at, that's the level she's at. She says that she didn't really try in the placement testing bc she was mad about doing school stuff over the summer. I also think about statistics that say kids lose up to 40% of their learning progress over the summer. So I wonder about that 30% accuracy on the previous year's math in September, and how well average kids would have done if they'd had to do similar testing.  

SO on to the question:

I have an off-cycle IEP check in meeting tomorrow. I'm considering asking them to let her try the lowest level of 6th grade math once she returns from Christmas break. We would hire a tutor, probably at least 2x a week at first, to help her get up to speed and to make up the learning gap at home. At this point, she has only missed 3 months of 6th grade math. But if I keep her there all year, she will end up a full year behind with no way to ever get back to mainstream. 

But maybe that shouldn't be my goal? I don't know if I'm just wanting something for her that is not realistic. I just want what's best for her. 

I have a feeling that the school will be very resistant to this plan. I know it will be hard for the teacher whose class she ends up in. But there just doesn't seem to be an ideal placement option for her, so I feel like I have to choose between two not great ones. 

WWYD? 

[expectantsteelerfan]

Are 5th and 6th grade in the same building at her school? I think your goal should be to get her out of the special ed. classroom for math since that is what she hates so much, and it sounds like it is not doing her any benefits. I am wondering if they would counter that she could move into the mainstream 5th grade math class though, because moving from the special ed. 5th grade math class to the mainstream 6th grade class seems like a big jump. But if 5th and 6th are in different buildings, that wouldn't really be an option.

I know repeating 5th grade math also isn't ideal, but I'm thinking about our own district where depending on what math they take in middle school, they might not need to take 4 years of math in high school (if they take the advanced track in middle school), which opens up some students to take more electives, or math-focused students to take more advanced math classes. But for a student who had to repeat a math class, they could 'catch up' in high school.

[missva]

What would be her high school 9th grade option if they keep her in the 5th grade math now?

[MDmomof2]

In our district, 5th grade math is a lot of review of past math concepts to get students ready for middle school. Students in the advanced class "skip" 5th grade math and end up 1-2 years ahead of the students doing grade-level math. So if I was in your situation, I would want to make sure my child was comfortable in 5th grade math before moving on, since it would be a reflection of what they'd learned in previous years. Obviously you are not me, but I offer the story to encourage you to see if you can dig into the 5th grade curriculum and see what she's missing and then do a better cost/benefit analysis of asking her to be moved. Middle school math really builds on basic math concepts and if she doesn't have a strong grasp of those she will continue not to be successful.

[steamboat185]

Do they do a mid year assessment? Could they? Our school does beginning, middle and end. If she has shown growth then maybe she could move up, but she really needs to know her math facts. It’s so much harder to add fractions and do the multi digit multiplication and division required for 5th grade math without knowing those.

Honestly if she hates the Sped room I’d try to get her back into mainstream and then do what you can to catch her backup, but don’t expect too much. The tests given at the start of the year know that kids have lost learning over the summer. Assuming your school system uses a computer based math approach like iready or similar you should be able to tell if she is close to grade level with her lessons.

[jinkies]

Hmm. Moving to a mainstream 5th grade class is an interesting option. I would have to ask DD how she would feel about that.

missva, that is the problem. If we don't keep her options open to eventually take a mainstream class, she will have no options other than the special education classroom. I just looked at my son's high school course planning book, and the lowest math option available for 9th graders is Algebra 1A (a slower paced Algebra, which only covers half the course-- 10th grade would be Algebra 1B).

The slowest mainstream math pace is 6th grade math >> 7th grade math >> Pre Algebra in 8th grade.
Most kids go to Pre-Algebra or Algebra 1 in 7th grade, 7th grade math is for struggling learners. But if she doesn't complete 6th grade math, she won't be on track.

[waverly]

Dec 12, 2023 13:53:42 GMT -5 jinkies said:

In full disclosure: she is extremely weak on her math facts because she was allowed charts. This is a big reason she was recommended for special ed. She didn't do well on the placement tests because she wasn't allowed charts and does not have the expected fact fluency. At some point (unclear to me whether this was with or without supports) they did baseline testing and she was only getting about 30% of 5th grade math problems correct. Her IEP math goal is to do 5th grade math with 60% accuracy by the next annual IEP meeting, which will be September of 7th grade. 

She says that she didn't really try in the placement testing bc she was mad about doing school stuff over the summer. I also think about statistics that say kids lose up to 40% of their learning progress over the summer. So I wonder about that 30% accuracy on the previous year's math in September, and how well average kids would have done if they'd had to do similar testing.  

SO on to the question:

I have an off-cycle IEP check in meeting tomorrow. I'm considering asking them to let her try the lowest level of 6th grade math once she returns from Christmas break. We would hire a tutor, probably at least 2x a week at first, to help her get up to speed and to make up the learning gap at home. At this point, she has only missed 3 months of 6th grade math. But if I keep her there all year, she will end up a full year behind with no way to ever get back to mainstream. 

But maybe that shouldn't be my goal? I don't know if I'm just wanting something for her that is not realistic. I just want what's best for her. 


WWYD? 

I agree with pp about really digging into what she is missing in 5th grade math.  Since math builds on itself you do need those building blocks.  If there is no multiplication fluency (and therefore division) then that might be something she can work with the tutor on as well as those other missing skills.

To answer your question, I only have my own kids to compare to, and I have seen DS not try on MAP tests.  These are examples, but lets say when he tries he is at 90% but when he doesn't try he was at 75%.  So there is some variation, but only by 15%.  Learning loss didn't seem to apply in this case because it was mid year.  So in regards to testing, we ruled out the 75% and decided it was an "off" day.  I had a discussion with him of the importance of keeping the testing consistent for class placement reasons (instead of just do whatever I want because it doesn't matter), and that did seem to help.

For the IEP, I would discuss that the Sped classroom does not seem like the right placement for her, and offer up either mainstream 5th grade or 6th grade math depending on where you, tutor?, and the school assess her at.

Does she have dyscalculia? I don't know if there is a specific tutoring/ teaching style for that, but there might be.  

[wanderingback]

I’m not an expert in this area but could she at least try regular classroom 5th grade math instead of special ed? If she excels there and after an assessment then go to 6th?

[jinkies]

waverly , it is most likely dyscalculia, but that isn't a term our district uses in assessments.

I think I am just going to have to start with "what does middle school/ high school math look like for her"? and then see where the conversation goes.

I'm just having trouble with the idea that we are giving up on any possibility of ever mainstreaming.

ETA: I just looked back at her reevalution report, and the issue is entirely in fact fluency. Problem solving, numerical operations and addition fluency were all average/low average. Issues were in multiplication fluency. (very low)

[ssmjlm]

I think I would approach from the stanpoint of, what is happening now isn't working. You're not arguing her placement, per se, but you feel that she would benefit more from a different classroom setup.

[nicolewi]

. My daughter has dyscalculia and dyslexia. Not that I think our school has necessarily been a shining example of knowing how to deal with learning disabilities, but they have kept my daughter in grade level math and I do like that. She’s really not capable of doing most of the grade level math, but she sticks with it anyway. She receives pull-out math instruction from the special ed teacher, as well as pull-out reading instruction. We have homework modifications, so we skip some of the math homework problems. We don’t have letter grades, and that is good for her. she usually does pretty poorly on assessments, but she still learning something. Honestly, if your daughter does have dyscalculia, eventually she’ll just use a calculator for everything anyway. Many dyscalculic kids never really learntheir times tables, and that’s OK. I struggle that the school seems to expect that my daughter will learn them and I don’t know if that will ever happen. I’d rather focus on learning the concepts, so that she can apply tools in the future.

We were able to change some of the times that my daughter receives pull out help to make her school day. Go better. For example, she was sitting through phonics and taking phonics tests with the class at the beginning of the year and obviously that was a complete disaster. Now they do some of her pull out time during phonics. Maybe you can rearrange her day a bit to make the special ed time work better?

I agree with you and your daughter, that she should not already be a year behind in math if there’s any alternative. It’s probably not even helping her to repeat last year‘s math, and it’s just putting her further behind her peers in terms of the concepts she has been exposed to.

[luckystar2]

I think just asking them what the plan is for her for the future is a good idea. I’d just list your concerns and how much she dislikes the room she’s in now.

I will say I do not know how she would be able to go from special ed 5th grade math to regular 6th grade math having missed the first few months of 6th grade math. I think that would be hard for anyone. That would be a lot to catch up on. 6th grade math was by far the hardest year for my dd. She has been excelling in math after that but 6th grade was very problematic for her.

[jinkies]

Dec 12, 2023 15:55:18 GMT -5 ssmjlm said:

I think I would approach from the stanpoint of, what is happening now isn't working. You're not arguing her placement, per se, but you feel that she would benefit more from a different classroom setup.

Thank you for this simple advice. You are right. I don't even know the options right now and I'm kind of spiraling on hypotheticals. I'm way ahead of myself. The bottom line is that her current placement isn't right for her. There may not be a perfect placement available, but I will ask them to talk through the options.

[vamoose]

Is there a sixth grade math class during the same period as her special education math class? Could she attend that class for one unit to see if she can keep up?

We are working to move my seventh grade son from. Special education social studies to mainstream social studies by the start of 8th grade and a part of that transition includes him going to mainstream class for one unit so he can get a feel for it and then return to the special education class to brush up on the skills that caused issues. In theory he could stay in the mainstream class if everything went well, but I expect him to continue to need skill development. This will also allow the class aides for the special education class to drop in on him and provide support.

[1yeartogo]

I just wanted to chime in that my child who usually does really well is struggling with 6th grade math and now has a C. She has never scored this low on anything before so I would be wary of changing course without a solid plan in place since middle school can be a difficult transition for a lot of kids to begin with and math is challenging content.

[erbear]

I would not push her into a mainstream 6th grade math class at this point. I would encourage her to do the current class well, maybe take the 6th grade class over the summer with a tutor and see if she can place out of it, and get an iep in place for next year to allow the accommodations she needs (times tables charts, a calculator). Those are typical accommodations for dyscalculia.

She should still be on track for algebra 1a in 9th grade unless I’m missing something. That placement allows for a year of repeat math in most schools.

[steamboat185]

Honestly if she can do ok with charts etc can you see if you can add that into to her IEP? Maybe even see if they can give her a calculator if she understands the theory and is just making mistakes with calculations it’s a lot different than if she doesn’t understand the way math is supposed to be approached.

[orval]

My ds has a SLD in math (otherwise known as dyscalculia). He is in grade level math and has been his whole career (now a Jr in high school taking Alg 2). He does not know math facts, but does understand most concepts. He does not get A's in math but holds his own most of the time. He has been using a calculator most of the time since 5th grade.
I personally would go to main stream 5th and try to also take 6th grade math concurrently or over the summer to be on grade level. She will likely never know the facts and a calculator is key.
My ds also has dypraxia and dysgraphia but the math really shows in school/testing -- for example, he recently took the ACT for the first time. He scored 11 points lower on the math section than reading. It is kind of wild. He has also been consistent in all of his neuropsych testing over the years.

[jinkies]

So to clarify, she did ok last year in 5th grade math but needed supports. Did not do well on the placement testing with no supports. The IEP has already given her back the supports.

So she is both allowed to use a calculator AND having to redo 5th grade math to help boost her fluency.

In retrospect we should have tried the lowest 6th grade math with supports and simultaneously had her tutored to help strengthen math facts but hindsight is 20/20.

There should be a lower level 6th grade math class with the kids that are on track for 7th grade math next year. But I really don't know.

Thinking about it more, I don't think mainstream 5th grade math would be an option due to scheduling issues.

[Jalapeñomel]

I’m not quite sure why you think she won’t go mainstream in the future. Sure she may be in algebra in 10th, but grade levels get all jumbled in HS anyway, especially in math.

I’d ask if she can go into a 5th grade math class that’s not SpEd, and go from there.

If not, ask the case manager to address why she can’t be in a separate location to do work, since she’s being constantly distracted.

I’m sorry this sounds frustrating!

[UMaineTeach]

If fact fluency is the only holding her back from grade level I would look into putting her in sixth grade math and having an accommodation for using a chart or calculator. Sure, fluency is important, but it shouldn’t hold her back from being included in grade level math.


And maybe some other accommodations, like extra time for assignments and assessments, reduced problems, simplified problems (that have the same concept, but fewer words or clearer language), other visual aids (problem solving checklists, formula charts), supported note taking.

heck, I’ll cave and say a para in the classroom for math to facilitate accommodations. I don’t like it, especially for older students, but if it’s the difference between exercising her right to access the general education curriculum at grade level and being a year behind with no access to grade level curriculum…

[orval]

Dec 12, 2023 18:20:35 GMT -5 jinkies said:

So to clarify, she did ok last year in 5th grade math but needed supports. Did not do well on the placement testing with no supports. The IEP has already given her back the supports.

So she is both allowed to use a calculator AND having to redo 5th grade math to help boost her fluency.

In retrospect we should have tried the lowest 6th grade math with supports and simultaneously had her tutored to help strengthen math facts but hindsight is 20/20.

There should be a lower level 6th grade math class with the kids that are on track for 7th grade math next year. But I really don't know.

Thinking about it more, I don't think mainstream 5th grade math would be an option due to scheduling issues.

With no supports on the testing and ok in 5th grade math, I would defnintely see if you can get into 6th grade math.  Try to get the extra help to make up for what she has missed.   If she has dyscalculia, she may not ever get any better with fluency.

[tealblue]

You’ve had some great ideas so far and I like the idea to say “what we’re doing isn’t helping, what can we do different”. Different may mean 5th or 6th grade general math class.

Does her school have a resource room? My son goes this semester (due to needing out of a very chaotic and unstructured phys education class) where he gets more focused help to finish up homework, can work on IXL (this might be good as well, it’s math driven games and typically focus on fluency at different grade levels and focus areas). Maybe she could replace a specials/related arts class with a resource room where she could get more assistance with the 5th and 6th grade math work but if she has time, spend xx minutes a day on the math facts on an online game resource like IXL.

[macmars45]

I had to repeat Algebra A (1) so I was a grade level behind in math all through high school. It was no big deal. In college I even took below college level math and again, it was no big deal. I'm a fully functioning adult and everything.

ETA: I hope the IEP meeting goes well and your DD's team figures out a good plan for her going forward.

[niq]

I would comment on the classroom environment and document your concerns. That sounds like a real barrier.

V has something like a "graphic organizer" written into his IEP for writing assignments. I think there's something like this for math? She would get training wheels for multi-step tasks.

We have had very good luck finding tutors -- even tutors whose day job is as an SN teacher! -- during the summer. Some of them have had weeknight availability during the school year.

I think I would wait on getting back into a grade-level class until she's more successful (with whatever support structure is necessary), but that's a judgement call.

If she'll play games I always plug Prime Climb. The game a visual representation of prime factors, so it gives you another way to learn if multiplication and division fluency is still full of hard feelings.

[jinkies]

Update: the IEP meeting was today. We went over where she is right now and agree that she is not ready to try mainstream math yet, but we made clear that she is very motivated to get out of the special education classroom for math and that we are willing to support her any way we can.

She has already met some of her goals, and we are going to hire a tutor (the school already sent us the list they maintain) to try to help her achieve the remainder of her 5th grade math goals as fast as possible. Given that this is all review for her, we are hoping that regular one on one help will get her through the remaining goals.

Then she can start focusing on 6th grade math. Whether or not she gets far enough along to qualify for Math 7 (lowest mainstream option next year) will likely depend on her willingness to continue tutoring over the summer.

But at least now we know the steps and we have a path toward getting her to grade level, which I feel much better about (and she does too). The rest is basically in DD's court-- the harder she is willing to work, the better her chances of meeting the standards for math 7.

[erbear]

Dec 13, 2023 17:47:57 GMT -5 jinkies said:

Update: the IEP meeting was today. We went over where she is right now and agree that she is not ready to try mainstream math yet, but we made clear that she is very motivated to get out of the special education classroom for math and that we are willing to support her any way we can.

She has already met some of her goals, and we are going to hire a tutor (the school already sent us the list they maintain) to try to help her achieve the remainder of her 5th grade math goals as fast as possible. Given that this is all review for her, we are hoping that regular one on one help will get her through the remaining goals.

Then she can start focusing on 6th grade math. Whether or not she gets far enough along to qualify for Math 7 (lowest mainstream option next year) will likely depend on her willingness to continue tutoring over the summer.

But at least now we know the steps and we have a path toward getting her to grade level, which I feel much better about (and she does too). The rest is basically in DD's court-- the harder she is willing to work, the better her chances of meeting the standards for math 7.

This sounds like a great resolution. She gets a goal to work toward and you are giving her the support she needs to get there. Nice job, mom.

[jinkies]

Bumping this more for myself than for any kind of response. But the update as of Jan 8: the tutor started last night. Tutor is 5th/6th grade special ed teacher at another school in our district.

1. She is amazing and I think I learned more in 15 minutes talking to her about our options than I have in 4 months with DD's teacher.
2. She was professional but clearly shocked that DD has not been receiving homework all year, doesn't have a math book, and is apparently not working with any defined curriculum.
3. She validated some of our concerns-- namely that we feel like there are behavior issues in the class that demand almost all of the teacher attention and that the quieter/good kids can be overlooked.
4. She noted (without prompting from me) that both DD's math goals, and her progress on them, are very low. I appreciated the honest feedback since I have no frame of reference. The school has historically "aimed low" with IEP goals to ensure that they can say they succeeded-- it was actually one of the reasons that led to us pulling her. It was... validating I guess... to hear the tutor basically confirm that I'm not crazy and these are very low goals, and that it is an issue that DD has not made more progress toward them.
5. She is reaching out to her contacts at the middle school level to see what the minimum requirement would be for DD to attempt the lowest mainstream math next year so that we know what we are working toward.

Essentially, talking to her just confirmed for me that by staying in her current special education room without any further intervention, she would not come anywhere close to attempting to mainstream. We also talked about the possibility of, at some point in the near future, just completely abandoning 5th grade math and focusing on 6th grade just give her exposure so that she can attempt to do some 6th grade work in the last trimester. We will need to have her continue with tutoring over the summer regardless, and can go back and review 5th grade math then as needed.

I wanted to just hug the tutor at the end, even though it wasn't all encouraging news. At least I felt like she was giving me straight answers and a clear idea of where we stand. Navigating DD's learning disabilities has been, by far, my hardest parenting challenge.

[tealblue]

It sounds like you have an amazing tutor who can help you with your child’s goals and math skills but also help you advocate for what you need.

Big big hugs. That’s hard news to hear and it’s so hard to navigate special education services on your own for the first time. But sounds like you are on a great path. Kudos to you for recognizing something isn’t right and getting this tutor.

[karinothing]

I am glad that tutor gave you some answers. I would encourage you to reach out to the math department at your middle school. I find our middle school is much better than our elementary school regarding communication and what standards are needed. At our school the department deals with math placement for the next year and does take parent actions into consideration.

Re: number 2. Our district doesn't give homework in elementary school and there is rarely homework in middle school so that part doesn't seem unusual to me. I think a lot of schools no longer use math books (both my kids just get printed worksheets).