@Book Bans - What if They Aren't Terrible? spoiler: they are

[wawa]

Carroll County in MD, which is a second tier, more rural area west of Baltimore and North of DC (still plenty of commuters to both metros, but much more spread out and more red than the first ring of counties) has been working through a Moms For Liberty book challenge spree of ~60 books.

I just read the actual list of books and i realize I am more conflicted about this than I expected to be.  Like Toni Morrison the Bluest Eye - fuck off (and the committee chose to retain that one)  But errrr, Sarah J Maas and Colleen Hoover are in there. why in the world were those in a school library in the first place?  I have zero problem with ACOTAR not being in a school library.  Thoughts?  Are these kinds of challenges for more "pop" books happening where you live?  are we ok with those?  Is it normal to have those at school in the first place??


A handful of pieces with different spins and details: 
cnsmaryland.org/2023/10/12/challenged-books-in-carroll-county-largely-written-by-women-feature-lgbtqia-characters/
www.thebaltimorebanner.com/education/k-12-schools/moms-for-liberty-carroll-county-books-libraries-P6FLBRBZDNHKFPB5LJWS6UB6NM/
www.cbsnews.com/baltimore/news/carroll-county-schools-to-vote-on-book-banning-policy-amid-heated-debate/

second link there has a list of the books and current status in a table about halfway down.

[wawa]

Like...I know we all read Clan of the Cave Bear or VC Andrews or regency romances we snagged off our parent's shelves when we were probably younger than ideal for them. they weren't at the school library, were they?? I guess I never looked for them there.

[jinkies]

I think it's a very slippery slope if you start removing books just because you don't think they are good.

I am of the opinion that libraries should have a wide selection of books to appeal to as many readers as possible. Frankly, I don't think that books are the source of 99% of the inappropriate stuff that kids are exposed to, so I just can't get behind removing anything. I think you'd be doing more to protect kids if you spent your time trying to ban tiktok or Snapchat.

[fortnightlily]

Jan 9, 2024 10:35:21 GMT -5 wawa said:

Like...I know we all read Clan of the Cave Bear or VC Andrews or regency romances we snagged off our parent's shelves when we were probably younger than ideal for them. they weren't at the school library, were they?? I guess I never looked for them there.

When I was in 7th grade the teacher handed out a long list of books we could choose from for a unit (it was the school or department or district's list, not hers). Clan of the Cave Bear was on that list, my mom already had it on her bookshelf at home, so I picked that one. Then my teacher proceeded to give me a D on my book report because she didn't approve of me reading smut. I was so pissed.

[StrawberryBlondie]

IDK. I generally don't like slippery slope arguments but I think it's a really short leap from " public school library" to "public library" and if these challenges are successful at the public school level, I can see them amped up at the public library level - and that's where I really have problems.

[wawa]

Jan 9, 2024 10:36:24 GMT -5 jinkies said:

I think it's a very slippery slope if you start removing books just because you don't think they are good.

I am of the opinion that libraries should have a wide selection of books to appeal to as many readers as possible. Frankly, I don't think that books are the source of 99% of the inappropriate stuff that kids are exposed to, so I just can't get behind removing anything. I think you'd be doing more to protect kids if you spent your time trying to ban tiktok or Snapchat.

I mean, I like the Sarah J Maas books well enough. I'm not opposed to having them in a SCHOOL library on a quality issue, but more that it's...smut adjacent.  Like, not actual smut because on the smut scale they're VERY tame and it's definitely more plot than not, but they do still have explicit gratuitous sex scenes and I can see a policy that carefully removes those kinds of books while still allowing books that have scenes that encompass sexual activity in a way that's meaningful to the core of the book.  It's not cut and dry though or easy though.  And in the grand scheme I'd default to less banning than more, so if we can't figure out what that looks like in a really clear way then ban nothing.

But I would clutch the fuck out of my pearls if next year my middle schooler came home with some fairy porn.  like, I have questions for the librarians who chose that book to put on the shelves.

Regular public libraries have a totally different audience - (i.e. adults) so the idea of banning things for sex there would be a clear bright line of absolutely fucking not.  Not sure how I feel about high school.

[pixy0stix]

Right, you'd make an individual decision as a parent. Some parents might be ok with it.

[Bad Dingo]

I disagree, they are 100% terrible. If you don't want your kid reading something, that's fine. But don't limit what books other kids have access to.

I thought Junie B. Jones books were terrible and the main character was an asshole. So I just limited DD's access to those books.

[Jalapeñomel]

I absolutely checked out VC Andrews from the school library.

The only thing my parents didn't limit was books. I couldn't watch rated PG-13/R movies or listen to certain types of music, but I could read any book I wanted.

Don't ban books from libraries.

[wawa]

Jan 9, 2024 11:07:53 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Right, you'd make an individual decision as a parent. Some parents might be ok with it.

that's fair.  Is there a limit though?  Like why in the world would a middle school librarian make limited shelf room available to something like Lured by a Laird?  That would just be a bizarre ass decision. ACOTAR is a much more gray area, but there is a reasonable line SOMEWHERE. 

Maybe it's just a trust in librarians thing to ID where that line is on a case by case basis, and parents who want to draw it elsewhere can do so with their own kid.

[pixy0stix]

Jan 9, 2024 11:18:12 GMT -5 wawa said:

Jan 9, 2024 11:07:53 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Right, you'd make an individual decision as a parent. Some parents might be ok with it.

that's fair.  Is there a limit though?  Like why in the world would a middle school librarian make limited shelf room available to something like Lured by a Laird?  That would just be a bizarre ass decision. ACOTAR is a much more gray area, but there is a reasonable line SOMEWHERE. 

Maybe it's just a trust in librarians thing to ID where that line is on a case by case basis, and parents who want to draw it elsewhere can do so with their own kid.

Because, you don't know what might encourage a kid to read.

[wawa]

Jan 9, 2024 11:16:15 GMT -5 Jalapeñomel said:

I absolutely checked out VC Andrews from the school library.

The only thing my parents didn't limit was books. I couldn't watch rated PG-13/R movies or listen to certain types of music, but I could read any book I wanted.

Don't ban books from libraries.

LOL, got it - I grabbed all my smut from my mom's shelves and the used book store so I honestly wasn't sure if they were there. 

I'm right on the verge of dealing with all of this so it's been on my mind and I don't *entirely* know how I feel about it.  Hence this thread.  I still read books aloud with my 5th grader, and have realized that some of my old favorites are more explicit than I remembered.  and like...I'd rather she read it than watch R rated movies?  (have not explored why I feel that) but I'm still wrapping my head around my precious baby being old enough for that to be a reasonable thing for her to read.  I'll get there. 

[neverfstop]

Jan 9, 2024 11:10:30 GMT -5 Bad Dingo said:

I

I thought Junie B. Jones books were terrible and the main character was an asshole. So I just limited DD's access to those books.

Agreed- I HATED those books...they were so awful.  

[StrawberryBlondie]

I also think elementary and middle school is tricky because of the age those school spans. In my area now, middle school is 6-8 but in my hometown it's 5-8. Up until a couple years ago, elementary in my area was K-6. What's appropriate for an 8th grader may definitely not be for a 5th grader.

I read somewhere that kids tend to be pretty good at deciding for themselves if a book is right for them or not and I think that's true. So I think we trust that if kids check out a book that's too mature for them, they'll figure it out or lose interest pretty quickly.

[AJL]

I am against book bans 100%, no exceptions. And yes, I mean no books should be banned (throw any title you want at me, my feeling is still the same). 

However, I do believe that school libraries have a responsibility to curate their collection to best suit the needs of their students. Books for K-5 libraries are going to be different than middle school and high school libraries.

I also think it's extremely important for parents to be engaged with what their children are reading. It's not that hard. I'm not saying parents need to read every single book their kid reads, but you can read the synopsis and ask questions. I also think it's important for parents to interrogate their own biases when it comes to reading material; why are they opposed to the material? Have they read the book? What about it do they feel is inappropriate and why?

As for the books mentioned in the OP, while I think Colleen Hoover books are kind of crap, that doesn't mean I don't think teens shouldn't read them. Again, this comes back to being an engaged parent. Approach everything with a sense of curiosity and as little judgement as possible. Really find out what about the piece is interesting to your teen. 

The ONLY person who should have the power to "ban" reading material for a child or teen is their parent or guardian. Not the librarian. Not the government. Not fucking Moms for Liberty. 

[wawa]

Jan 9, 2024 11:20:20 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Jan 9, 2024 11:18:12 GMT -5 wawa said:

that's fair.  Is there a limit though?  Like why in the world would a middle school librarian make limited shelf room available to something like Lured by a Laird?  That would just be a bizarre ass decision. ACOTAR is a much more gray area, but there is a reasonable line SOMEWHERE. 

Maybe it's just a trust in librarians thing to ID where that line is on a case by case basis, and parents who want to draw it elsewhere can do so with their own kid.

Because, you don't know what might encourage a kid to read.

well...huh.  good point.  all the voracious readers I know as an adult read "inappropriate" shit as kids.  Bodice rippers as gateway to being a lifelong reader?  I want to see a study on it.

[jinkies]

The things that my kid was exposed to daily in middle school shocked me. Mild "smut" in the library would not have even been on the radar. Directing limited resources toward micro-managing school librarians for fear that a 13 old might read something about sex is misguided, at best.

[AJL]

Also, I think when school districts start banning material or discussion topics, it just shows they're lazy and easily manipulated by uninformed, easily manipulated parents. Have a fucking backbone. Education is what's important and a guided education with openness to conversation and age-appropriate support is how we help students to become critical thinkers and consumers of information.

[hermione]

My kid can read anything she wants. Full stop. You don't get to deny her access to materials because you feel differently about your kid.

As for why a librarian would give limited space to any title, only the librarian (who is often a mastered degree professional who took graduate level classes in collection development) can answer that for her specific library and students.

[StrawberryBlondie]

I get it wawa. I have a 4th grader and she came home from school one day really upset that her class book club didn't get assigned to read "A Night Divided" like another group did.

I have read this book. As an adult. It's really good. For those that don't know it, it's about a girl and her brother who get trapped at home in East Berlin when the wall goes up and their father is on the other side because he happened to be away when it happened, and their effort to escape.

It's YA, but a part of me was like man, is this really appropriate for a 9 year old???

[wawa]

Jan 9, 2024 11:35:48 GMT -5 hermione said:

My kid can read anything she wants. Full stop. You don't get to deny her access to materials because you feel differently about your kid.

As for why a librarian would give limited space to any title, only the librarian (who is often a mastered degree professional who took graduate level classes in collection development) can answer that for her specific library and students.

I totally agree on your second line - I was actually hoping we had a school librarian here who could share some insight about how they balance different factors because it wouldn't be a shock if that happened here. 

[AJL]

Jan 9, 2024 11:39:41 GMT -5 StrawberryBlondie said:

I get it wawa . I have a 4th grader and she came home from school one day really upset that her class book club didn't get assigned to read "A Night Divided" like another group did.

I have read this book. As an adult. It's really good. For those that don't know it, it's about a girl and her brother who get trapped at home in East Berlin when the wall goes up and their father is on the other side because he happened to be away when it happened, and their effort to escape.

It's YA, but a part of me was like man, is this really appropriate for a 9 year old???

But what is it about the book that you feel isn't appropriate for a 9/10 year old? I haven't read it, so I don't know any of the details.

[hermione]

Jan 9, 2024 11:39:41 GMT -5 StrawberryBlondie said:

I get it wawa . I have a 4th grader and she came home from school one day really upset that her class book club didn't get assigned to read "A Night Divided" like another group did.

I have read this book. As an adult. It's really good. For those that don't know it, it's about a girl and her brother who get trapped at home in East Berlin when the wall goes up and their father is on the other side because he happened to be away when it happened, and their effort to escape.

It's YA, but a part of me was like man, is this really appropriate for a 9 year old???

It's not YA, it's juvenile fiction. I'm not being petty, this is actually important. Just because there are tough topics involved, doesn't mean a book can't be for children. That's the basis for many book bans. And it spirals to higher levels. 

This is actually a really good example. If you don't think your child should read this book, that's between you and the school. But you only get to make that choice for your child, not the rest of the class.

[eddy]

I read Danielle Steel at a way to young age. I feel strongly about being able to explore those topics safely in the confines of a book. I was curious.  I feel strongly that children get to do the same. But I only have memories of getting those books at the public library. I wonder if they were at school? My summers were consumed with reading these books lol.

Also yes I read all the VC Andrews books. OMG, lol. Also I remember just returning the public library over and over to get the next book. Why were we reading these books!

I think books are a really safe way to explore topics. Even if it makes adults uncomfortable. 

[abs]

Book bans are absolutely terrible. If my DD is reading something I’m not 100% sure about I’ll read it right along with her so we can discuss. She spent the entire winter break reading the Divergent series and it was the first time in 5 months she found reading fun. I re-read to refresh my memory so we could talk about it and we had the best discussions. I’m team whatever makes it fun because the crap they read in school is NOT fun and makes reading a chore. DD was like oh wow I forgot that I actually do love books and reading. A steady diet of Charles Dickens made her forget. If she asked to read Sarah J Maas I’d let her. I wouldn’t love it but uh there is way more problematic content on a regular day of 7th grade. Like it’s truly shocking. Telling her no wouldn’t do any good anyways. I sure found my way to the Sweet Valley High books my mom told me no on in 5th grade.

Book bans are about control and people being afraid to get uncomfortable.

[InBetweenDays]

100% disagree with any banning of books. As others have said we can all make a determination as parents. I can go online right now and see what books DD and DS have checked out of the school library. If I were to have an issue I'd talk to my child, not the librarian.

Also, I've never read Colleen Hoover but 17yo DD has. And promptly used her as an example in her college level lit assignment that was a critical analysis of an essay on the concept of agency.

[eddy]

Jan 9, 2024 11:32:52 GMT -5 jinkies said:

The things that my kid was exposed to daily in middle school shocked me. Mild "smut" in the library would not have even been on the radar. Directing limited resources toward micro-managing school librarians for fear that a 13 old might read something about sex is misguided, at best.

Also this. I live in a book ban state and my joke is I would love to see the Venn diagram of parents worried about their kids reading a whole book and parents who have no clue what their kids are accessing on the internet.

If my kids are exposed to topics that make me uncomfortable, well at least they read a book to get the info. 😭

[taratru]

I've seen kids reading some straight garbage over the last almost 30 years of teaching. But they are reading. Actual books. So I do not care. The second you start policing what kind of books kids read, they stop. Please don't stop kids from reading. If they view reading as a pleasurable activity, they are likely to continue,and that trumps everything else.

Eta: Reading fiction builds empathy and forces kids to think about how they'd fit into narratives, which is amazing practice for maturing. Worried about "smut" or things being inappropriate? Read with them. Talk about it.

And I hate to be all "we didn't have car seats" about it, but did reading books that were "inappropriate" really impact any of us? Or did it hook us into a skill building process that made us stronger critical thinkers? Even Colleen Hoover and Stephenie Meyer and Danielle Steel makes brains better than hours on TikTok.

wawa There is a HUGE body of research about the importance of voice and choice for kids in reading, especially for boys. All my materials are back home, but a simple jstor search would probably pop so.e things for you.

[penguingrrl]

I trust a librarian to appropriately curate a collection that they feel reflects the needs and tastes of their patrons. This is true for a school library, a local library, a university library and any other library. I don’t see any good from boards of education and moms for fucking liberty interfering with the job of a highly trained professional.

FWIW, my HS had a library that had little to no “fun” material. Its purpose was to serve as a research center and they referred us to our local libraries for recreational reading material (thankfully I’m in an area with accessible and well funded public libraries). I have no issue with school libraries being curated in a way that the trained librarian feels is appropriate for its use case. I have a huge issue with someone who hasn’t been professionally trained in curating trying to dictate to the professionals.

I’m a big believer that parents can have the final say. I steered my kids away from the Junie B. Jones books because I hated the character and the language used. What I didn’t do was suggest to teachers or the school library that no children should be allowed to read them because I didn’t prefer them for my kid. I feel like the “party of limited government” really doesn’t recognize where personal taste ends and that just because you don’t like or approve of it doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be allowed. I don’t like or approve of bombs or guns…

[devonpow]

I read Clan of the Cave Bear, Lord of the Flies (gave me more nightmares than any other book), a TON of Stephen King, “Wifey” (stolen from my mom lol), and who knows what else before I was 10. Both my kids (now 11 and 16) can read whatever they want - I just want them to read. For both of them I got them a lot of books on sex and puberty that explain everything from body hair to anal sex. I’m sure somewhere those books are banned.

Book bans are always terrible. Some books I agree with things like being in a restricted section a la Harry Potter where you need parental permission to access (my high school library - private school - did this. I recall one in high school was the book “final exit” which is about euthanasia/dying with dignity and includes instructions for completing suicide. I wrote a paper about it and needed my parents permission to check it out. That is 100% reasonable - still having access but understanding the type of book a parent might want to be involved in the decision making for).