Just because kids hear it in the cafeteria or bus doesn't mean a teacher should be assigning 11/12 year olds homework work that says fuck a hundred times. This has nothing to do with the fragility of children or our society. There is an appropriateness to what should and should not be done.
I also find it hard to believe that many of you think that there is nothing wrong with this!
#breezy
I’m gonna start cussing at my students when they come in tomorrow:
Hey Asshole! How was your fucking weekend? Did you do your fucking homework?
It would not bother me. It wouldn't be anything my kids haven't heard (we watched Ted Lasso as a family) and if the content is worth it, meh.
I teach middle school, and if I have something that has colorful language in it, I give the kids a heads up. I generally don't say anything to parents, but I also don't use anything that's too much.
"Hello babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. On the outside, babies, you've got a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies-"God damn it, you've got to be kind.”
It wouldn't bother me, but I'd be surprised that it was assigned without a heads up, given what I think is the propensity of many parents to complain otherwise. It would also make me wonder if the teacher had listened to it.
I don't think the fact that there are curse words in a podcast/book/movie/etc means it's inherently inappropriate to assign to middle schoolers, but I'd also think that a good teacher would want to flag it for the kids themselves, and have a conversation about when certain words are appropriate.
Post by sugarbear1 on Jan 30, 2024 16:02:36 GMT -5
Teacher emailed me back: "Hi Sugarbear!
Thank you for the heads up. We did know they used some adult language but thought that the science in the podcast was relevant and interesting enough for the students to allow a couple curse words.
I do appreciate your involvement with [kid's] work and keeping us in the loop about any anxieties."
I'm a little surprised but am not going to say anything else. I really think it is ok -- and DS definitely did not have any anxieties (nor do I) -- to have those words in something deemed valuable by, apparently, the whole department. Like many of you, I would have expected a heads up.
I am decidedly not breezy about curse words and I wouldn’t be okay with this. I’m not so naive as to think my kids don’t use those words, but I’ve made it clear to them that if they ever use those words at home or in front of, say, their grandparents, they will get in serious trouble. Also, if they ever get in trouble at school for it, I will not have their backs.
I think accepting that most kids use that language and requiring them to listen to it is very different. It’s not like it was an integral part of the assignment. Surely the teacher could have chosen something more age-appropriate.
From the OP it wouldn't bother me (we've been watching John Oliver together for years). I feel like I need to know the actual episode. In the OP you said you listened to it with your kid. Then you said you only heard a few minutes. I'm listening to the weird bodies one and heard "shit" 1x.
OK, I just listened to the beginning of the episode you linked and the very first thing that is said in the podcast is "Head's up, today's show does include a couple of swear words" (and then I think I heard one swear word in the 20ish minutes I listened to - when one of the hosts said "No fucking way!" as a response to learning that mammals can breathe out of their butt. Which seems like a legit response to that revelation).
Without knowing if the episode that was given as homework had a similar warning, maybe the teacher thought that would suffice as notification?
OK, I just listened to the beginning of the episode you linked and the very first thing that is said in the podcast is "Head's up, today's show does include a couple of swear words" (and then I think I heard one swear word in the 20ish minutes I listened to - when one of the hosts said "No fucking way!" as a response to learning that mammals can breathe out of their butt. Which seems like a legit response to that revelation).
Without knowing if the episode that was given as homework had a similar warning, maybe the teacher thought that would suffice as notification?
Totally possible. I heard fuck and shit both, and DS said he'd heard both in the episode (in fact that's why I started paying more attention). The email response I got seems fairly dismissive, so maybe they did? AND, it's possible they said something in class and DS didn't hear it.
Either way, I have no intention of escalating because I had assumed she'd not listened to it. Turns out, she did listen to it and didn't think there was a need to notify parents, which I guess is better than not even knowing.
I probably wouldn't make a stink about it, but I bet if my kid used those words in her class she'd give him detention so she shouldn't be assigning it for homework. It would irritate me.
There's no other way to teach the material? I'm side eyeing this.
Post by notsopicky on Jan 30, 2024 17:02:05 GMT -5
Middle school teacher/specialist and current parent of a 7th grader, and semi-breezy, lol. What the OP described would be a hard no for me. It's one thing for that language to be used/heard by this age group in unstructured situations (the bus, at lunch), but wholly different when it's included in an assignment from a teacher. If it were a movie, with this language it most likely would be rated R and schools have limits on that.
I wouldn't send it up to admin, but it's a lock that somebody's going to. I for sure would say something to the teacher, similar to what I wrote above.
ETA: The response from the teacher is not good. It is not ok for this type of language to be used in a required assignment at school.
Thank you for the heads up. We did know they used some adult language but thought that the science in the podcast was relevant and interesting enough for the students to allow a couple curse words.
I do appreciate your involvement with [kid's] work and keeping us in the loop about any anxieties."
I'm a little surprised but am not going to say anything else. I really think it is ok -- and DS definitely did not have any anxieties (nor do I) -- to have those words in something deemed valuable by, apparently, the whole department. Like many of you, I would have expected a heads up.
I would not be OK with this response. If a teacher knows about adult language and chooses to assign the material anyway, a heads up is absolutely warranted.
Bother me? no. Surprised they assigned it? yup would I mention it? Nope
This is how I feel. I actually thought this was going to be a discussion about how long the podcast was and how much homework is acceptable. 😅
ETA: I totally understand why someone wouldn’t be ok with this. I am definitely *not* breezy about a lot of things. But a few errant cuss words during a podcast does not bother me.
I probably wouldn't make a stink about it, but I bet if my kid used those words in her class she'd give him detention so she shouldn't be assigning it for homework. It would irritate me.
This is a very good point!
I would be very surprised that they didn't give a head's up to families. I am so used to teacher's having to cover their butts to an annoying level so the audacity of just being like "meh it is totally worth the lesson" would be really surprising.
Former teacher here as well as the parent of a middle schooler, and I was feeling sorry for this teacher until I saw her response to you. Even if you live in the most liberal area possible she is going to hear about this from far less kind parents than you, and also probably from her admin.
Post by RoxMonster on Jan 30, 2024 18:31:49 GMT -5
Former (HS) teacher. We sometimes viewed videos or read books that had cuss words in them. Depending on the grade level it was, I would sometimes give parents a heads up. Sometimes (if I was teaching seniors especially in a college-level class), I would not.
I do think the teacher should have given a heads up especially because this is middle school. I don't love her response to you.
But to address a couple of the other comments here: In general I don't think it's bad to assign something that has some select swear words. Yes, there are probably readings or other materials that cover those concepts without swearing. But in a day and age of "engaging" kids in the classroom and trying to make it relatable and interesting for them, I might opt for an engaging and interesting podcast with 3-4 swear words rather than an article only that would be less engaging. Of course I would take into account the age (obviously would have a different decision if it was 1st graders) and if it was saying "fuck" like every sentence, I would opt out of it. But let's say it was 3-4 swear words over a 45 min podcast that was otherwise really engaging and had great info? I would, WITH a heads up to parents.
I also don't personally find it hypocritical to read or view something for class with swear words but not allow kids to say them in the classroom. Different situations entirely and I would and have had that conversation with kids. "We are going to listen to a podcast that has a couple swear words in it. These podcasters are adults who are making a podcast and can say what they want; I find a lot of value in the content, so we are going to listen anyhow; however, that doesn't mean that as a student in a classroom it is OK to use this language. It is not." The same goes for reading. I mean, Shakespeare's plays are full of sexual jokes, puns, and innuendos, yet I would not allow students to start making sexual jokes in my classroom. I guess I don't see studying one as allowing the other?
I would be shocked by this, lol. I would not care at all, definitely wouldn't say anything, but think to myself "she's gonna hear about this" because parents here would be up in arms.
Same here.
I swear in front of my kids and the podcast would not bother me, especially if it is something that they can learn from, but it would surprise me especially of a heads up wasn’t given.
Post by sugarbear1 on Jan 30, 2024 19:12:30 GMT -5
RoxMonster, I agree with you on both points. As I mentioned, I show a video with one swear word and I've also taught plenty of books with colorful language. In ELA, at least, the author's choice of language is part of our learning. And for both, I send an email home.
I am not even getting into the idea of sending at 45 minute podcast home for homework.
How did this escalate from a few swear words to every other word being fuck or shit?
I’m with @roxmonster in that I think it’s ok if there’s a few words that don’t overshadow the point of the podcast but the teacher should have the conversation with the kids about time/place.
I did tell her that I didn’t have a problem with the book, but others might. Plus DD had told me the book was about the Salem witch trials, so I knew this wasn’t it. She was grateful that I caught it.
How did this escalate from a few swear words to every other word being fuck or shit?
I’m with @roxmonster in that I think it’s ok if there’s a few words that don’t overshadow the point of the podcast but the teacher should have the conversation with the kids about time/place.
I did tell her that I didn’t have a problem with the book, but others might. Plus DD had told me the book was about the Salem witch trials, so I knew this wasn’t it. She was grateful that I caught it.
TBF in the OP, she said “fuck and shit, on repeat”
Post by sugarbear1 on Jan 30, 2024 20:58:57 GMT -5
I don't know what the threshold is for too many swears. I swear a lot! I heard them, DS told me that he heard them, so... more than several.
* it is possible he's not being honest and the first one he heard is what made me start listening. I haven't actually seen him to ask. Not sure why he would say that though.
Former (HS) teacher. We sometimes viewed videos or read books that had cuss words in them. Depending on the grade level it was, I would sometimes give parents a heads up. Sometimes (if I was teaching seniors especially in a college-level class), I would not.
I do think the teacher should have given a heads up especially because this is middle school. I don't love her response to you.
But to address a couple of the other comments here: In general I don't think it's bad to assign something that has some select swear words. Yes, there are probably readings or other materials that cover those concepts without swearing. But in a day and age of "engaging" kids in the classroom and trying to make it relatable and interesting for them, I might opt for an engaging and interesting podcast with 3-4 swear words rather than an article only that would be less engaging. Of course I would take into account the age (obviously would have a different decision if it was 1st graders) and if it was saying "fuck" like every sentence, I would opt out of it. But let's say it was 3-4 swear words over a 45 min podcast that was otherwise really engaging and had great info? I would, WITH a heads up to parents.
I also don't personally find it hypocritical to read or view something for class with swear words but not allow kids to say them in the classroom. Different situations entirely and I would and have had that conversation with kids. "We are going to listen to a podcast that has a couple swear words in it. These podcasters are adults who are making a podcast and can say what they want; I find a lot of value in the content, so we are going to listen anyhow; however, that doesn't mean that as a student in a classroom it is OK to use this language. It is not." The same goes for reading. I mean, Shakespeare's plays are full of sexual jokes, puns, and innuendos, yet I would not allow students to start making sexual jokes in my classroom. I guess I don't see studying one as allowing the other?
Another former hs teacher here, and I agree with this. I taught a particularly challenging 11th grade class (kids who didn't pass the state assessment 1st semester so had to take the class 2nd semester, we had block scheduling with semester classes), and I really stretched the limit of appropriateness at times to try to get them to engage with the content. But my lessons were also full of discussion about why that language was used/why it might even be appropriate for the piece, but might not be appropriate for today's spoken language. The same way I'd talk about how we'd be encountering the 'n' word in To Kill a Mockingbird with my 9th graders.
So while I wouldn't care that this was assigned, I think the teacher should have prepared the students for what they were about to hear (if she didn't), and since they are middle schoolers, a heads up to parents would have been smart too. I'd be surprised if she didn't get complaints from some parents.
I also never gave a detention for swearing in general though. I gave plenty of detentions, but I made it clear to my students (and I do to my kids too) that to me, there's a difference between swearing in exclamation of surprise or pain, and swearing AT someone, calling names, etc. There were plenty of words my students used that aren't considered actual swear words that they would be much more likely to get in trouble for using in my class. And my own kids get in trouble nowadays for calling each other stupid in anger than they would for swearing if it wasn't at someone.
Reminds (not a swear word), while working the snack room at MS, a girl needed a spoon and we had run out so I said ‘there are more over by the condoms’ I caught myself and said ‘condiments!’ Lol
So embarrassing but I don’t think anyone heard me.
Considering that RIGHT NOW the dictionary has been banned in at least one county in Florida for offensive language, I’m probably not the unhinged parent to worry about.
No, the is not ok. Sure they will hear such language in school and at social activities. But why are we normalizing it in education?
I'm also hung up on a 7th grader being required to listen to a 45 minute podcast as a homework assignment. What happened to family life in the evenings? 7th grade is still so young.
I feel like I must have listened to the wrong podcast, I only heard 1 shit and 1 fuck, definitely nothing "on repeat". Yes it was long, but maybe the kids were only supposed to listen to part of it?
I rarely swear, DD doesn't swear, but we have no problem experiencing art/theatre/literature, etc. that incorporates swearing. So despite the 2 swear words that I heard, I still have zero problems with this being assigned as a homework assignment.
I feel like I must have listened to the wrong podcast, I only heard 1 shit and 1 fuck, definitely nothing "on repeat". Yes it was long, but maybe the kids were only supposed to listen to part of it?
I rarely swear, DD doesn't swear, but we have no problem experiencing art/theatre/literature, etc. that incorporates swearing. So despite the 2 swear words that I heard, I still have zero problems with this being assigned as a homework assignment.
I don't know if that was the correct episode. And he definitely was supposed to listen to the whole thing, which was a far greater issue than the language, but not one I am going to fight (so far, this is the only real homework he's had in the class).
OK, I just listened to the beginning of the episode you linked and the very first thing that is said in the podcast is "Head's up, today's show does include a couple of swear words" (and then I think I heard one swear word in the 20ish minutes I listened to - when one of the hosts said "No fucking way!" as a response to learning that mammals can breathe out of their butt. Which seems like a legit response to that revelation).
Without knowing if the episode that was given as homework had a similar warning, maybe the teacher thought that would suffice as notification?
Totally possible. I heard fuck and shit both, and DS said he'd heard both in the episode (in fact that's why I started paying more attention). The email response I got seems fairly dismissive, so maybe they did? AND, it's possible they said something in class and DS didn't hear it.
Either way, I have no intention of escalating because I had assumed she'd not listened to it. Turns out, she did listen to it and didn't think there was a need to notify parents, which I guess is better than not even knowing.
Well, you tried to give her a heads up. :shrug: 100% someone is going to complain to the principal or superintendent, but I guess she's confident they have her back. But that would 100% not fly in most middle schools without permission slips or an opt-in. I guess she'll find out.
I keep thinking back to this and even now, at 32 years old, I wouldn’t expect my boss to assign a video with cuss words in it. My boss and I cuss *heavily* around each other but when it comes to her sending out a video for work I would be shocked if it had colorful language.
I curse quite a bit, but would be surprised there wasn't a heads up to the parents because that feels "proper" in this scenario, for lack of a better term.
So, I have more context (though we may have beaten this topic enough). If it matters, i teach at a private school and DS attends a different private school (where exH works, but in the tech office).
Kids were with their dad so I didn't get to follow up with DS face to face until last night. DS said he was assigned only 22 minutes of the podcast, so my hackles are down about the amount of homework. Still not something I'd assign but ok.
I asked both of my admins what they would expect. One was horrified and said there absolutely should have been an email. The other admin blew it off, until I explained that I'd be sending a similar email in a few weeks about a video I show.