If the relationship is truly salvageable, then a discussion-- or series of discussions is a better way to do this. I don't think there's anything wrong with leaving the kids with a sitter and going to a neutral place to talk. DH and I have done that when DS was younger and we needed to talk about something we didn't want him privy to.
Having read your posts for a while, I don't think he's amenable to change which means it might be prudent to plan your next steps without signaling your intentions.
If by “fight” you mean get annoyed with each other, then yes. If you mean talk about something we disagree on and express some level of frustration, then yes. But, we don’t have major arguments in front of them. But we don’t really have major arguments.
The reality is that I’m the one in my marriage that could work on my tone. My husband is much more patient and kind. But my ugliness is something like “argh, can’t you load the dishwasher” in a frustrated tone with an eye roll. It isn’t saying things that suggest he is actually a bad dad or partner. And my kid hears me say a ton of nice things about him too.
You have to realize you are dealing with abuse. You are not dealing with a normal “argument.” And you will never, ever change him. If you leave, that will be a huge signal to your 15 year old about standing up for yourself.
Just here to offer support. I do think that bickering or disagreements are normal, but he is especially unkind to you in front of them and that’s not ok. You deserve much better ❤️
Post by gretchenindisguise on Feb 13, 2024 18:01:45 GMT -5
I was doing a CEU training today and one of the slides had the elements of trust from the Gottmans:
1. Transparency – the opposite of lying and deceit. Keeping promises and being truthful in the relationship. 2. Positive Moral Certainty – knowing your partner is a moral, ethical partner. Delineates how you think your partner will treat you – with respect, integrity, kindness and good intentions.
Without those things you won't have full trust within a relationship. I unfortunately don't think you have either and I (and I believe the rest of the board) are concerned that it will never happen in this current relationship without significant work from your H, which he does to appear to want to do.
We cannot control other people. But we can control ourselves and our reactions to them and the choice to stay within their sphere of influence.
And I know that's a simplified response, but there is no need to fight with this man. Just say, "Please don't speak to me that way" and then disengage. And then call a lawyer.
Yes this. 1000%
The point or fighting, arguing, or discussing things with someone is to come to a resolution. Thats not an obtainable goal with this person.
He’s making you feel horribly, in front of your children. The question should really be, “do I argue back with my spouse, as he is currently saying inappropriate things in front of the children with no regard to anyone but himself.”
The answer to that is sure, you can. Or you can just say STFU, in any way you’d like. If you wanted to kindly say it, for some reason, you could say “I don’t appreciate being spoken to that way, please stop. We can discuss this later when you’ve had a chance to cool down” but know that he’s never going to not be him.
Yes we do. If it makes you feel better during one of my very first CBT sessions my therapist asked if my parents fought and I said that in my entire life I have never seen them have a disagreement, all proud and shit, and she told me that’s actually bad bc we learn healthy conflict resolution in relationships by seeing our parents work things out. In the absence of that we learn to avoid, suppress feelings, and sweep things under the rug so as not to make waves. Hello, me.
It’s ok
Um wow. I never thought about it but this statement just shred so much light for me.
It’s life-changing for me. I don’t mean it is a histrionic way, but it unlocked literally everything for me as far as my family dynamics, how I viewed confrontation, and how I asserted myself (or lack thereof). It makes so much sense!
We do disagree in front of the kids, but typically excuse ourselves to talk privately if it’s going to be more than that. This is mostly because we can never focus on us and the conversation at hand because the kids always want/need/whine/touch/want constantly.
When we’ve had more heated arguments we do it in our room, but we do know they have heard us before. We tell them that it’s okay to disagree etc, and it’s okay to be angry but you’re not allowed to be mean.
In your case, I think having a 3rd party like a marriage counselor would be super helpful. It gives you distance from kids and then also the backup you might need for a confrontation and discussion.
I think it's going to take a lot more than a screaming fight in front of your children to teach your 15 year old daughter what to expect in terms of relationships. Standing up for yourself is something you really need therapy for. It will be worth it, and then you can model it for your children.
OP, maybe I am misremembering but didn't you recently come into some inheritance that would make it easier for you to leave your H now? Time to kick his ass to the curb, he is never changing.
I did. Our house is too small right now for even just me and the kids, so I'm making improvements/spending all that money so he can't have any of it.
Post by fivechickens on Feb 13, 2024 18:52:26 GMT -5
We argue/bicker more than fight and, yes, that sometimes happens in front of the kids. We had a big blow up fight last year and, while the kids weren’t in the room, they could hear us.
Then I even more strongly encourage not engaging. I would say “please don’t talk to me that way” or even forget the “please” or “It’s not ok to say that to me” just to show your kids it’s ok/good to stand up for yourself, but I wouldn’t engage further than that. It’s not worth a fight or argument.
So happy you are throwing him out! You deserve a better life than what you will ever have with him.
Please check with a lawyer before putting money into the house, though. He may not be entitled to an inheritance that was yours, but he likely will be entitled to half of the house. You may also need money to live off of more than a larger house. I promise your kids would rather live in a tiny peaceful home.
OP, maybe I am misremembering but didn't you recently come into some inheritance that would make it easier for you to leave your H now? Time to kick his ass to the curb, he is never changing.
I did. Our house is too small right now for even just me and the kids, so I'm making improvements/spending all that money so he can't have any of it.
So, be careful with this. You can likely keep your inheritance, but improvements to a communal piece of property allows him to have access to the gained value in said property. Check with your lawyer. I’d hate for him to screw you over again.
Post by icedcoffee on Feb 13, 2024 19:23:50 GMT -5
I once read that it’s ok to fight in front of your kids but you need to make up in front of them also so they can see the whole circuit of the transaction so I try to live by that if a fight pops up in front of them.
But yeah… this is abuse and I’d definitely want to talk to your oldest about the fact that it is not ok for anyone to treat her that way. Hugs to you.
I did. Our house is too small right now for even just me and the kids, so I'm making improvements/spending all that money so he can't have any of it.
So, be careful with this. You can likely keep your inheritance, but improvements to a communal piece of property allows him to have access to the gained value in said property. Check with your lawyer. I’d hate for him to screw you over again.
^ THIS ^
He can’t get your inheritance. But he CAN get equity from the house. Stop ALL home projects until further notice (from an attorney, not me).
With this new development, no need to engage and poke the bear. Definitely still tell him it’s not ok for him to speak to you like that, but no reason to actually fight.
I am literally begging you to go talk to a lawyer before you make any changes to your house if you have not already talked to one. In many states, the way to protect an inheritance is to put it in an account with only your name on it. You don’t spend it on a house that you are going to buy him out of and only increase his payoff. You may be doing the exact opposite of what you think you are doing and essentially handing over to him half the value of the inheritance.
As for confrontation, remember that there's being direct and there's being an ass. A person CAN be an ass about being confrontational, but being an ass is absolutely not a de facto thing about confrontation. It sounds like you, emotionally, conflate the 2. "Do not speak to me that way" or "I will not speak to you when you talk to me like that" or "I am not [whatever shit he said], I am [insert adjective for awesome]" is direct. It's confronting an issue. It's not being an ass.
It's also okay sometimes to be an ass, but that's a discussion for another day.
Also, go talk to a lawyer. He's going to be the worst. Gird your loins.
Post by ellipses84 on Feb 14, 2024 12:00:12 GMT -5
If you are planning to leave, there’s no point in fighting. You can put boundaries in place and state those, but if he’s not used to that he may get angrier. Just learn to walk away and anything you say should end the conversation.
Talk to a lawyer about everything including financial. It can be really freeing to know you have started your exit plan. If he’s saying mean things and trying to pick a fight, I might text him and say, please don’t say XYZ or talk to me disrespectfully in front of the kids. I don’t want them to hear that and I don’t want to fight in front of them. If he responds via text in an awful way like he would in person then you have that in writing for court if needed. For yourself, think that everything you say and do can be used against you in court so don’t engage in back and forth fighting. State the boundary and end the conversation.
FWIW we have a tiny house and DH and I bicker, get frustrated and occasionally say something unkind to each other in front of the kids. If that happens, we also apologize to each other in front of them, and sometimes apologize to them or have a conversation about it. If my hotheaded DH says something rude I call him out on it because I don’t want my boys thinking it’s ok to talk to someone like that. My almost 13 year old hates conflict and takes any time DH and I don’t see eye to eye (which is often) as fighting so we are trying to teach him you can disagree but still debate something and be respectful. The other day he made us all laugh because we were debating something mundane and he walked up to us and started chanting “FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT!” like we were at middle school.
When my husband pisses me off, I definitely get snippy but try to hold back the actual meaningful conversation until we are out of earshot of the kids. I grew up in a very yelly shouty household, and I am legitimately scarred by it. I crave peace, which is tough with 3 kids, lol, but I will not stand for violent shouting/yelling.
Its hard sometimes. My kids are older now - 15, 13, and 12 today! - so they definitely know when something is up.
I am trying to think of what happens if I piss him off, and I can't think of a time. Lol. I just must never piss him off, lol.
Ok now I've caught up. But I would speak with a lawyer ASAP on the best way to protect your inheritance. I would hate for you to put it into your house, kick him out and then see him claim and be entitled to half of the equity.
I’d say we bicker in front of the kids. But we make a point of making up in front of them and at times apologizing to them for arguing in front of them. The dynamic is different because they are my SKs and I am protective of my own father when he argues with my SM, so I try really not to. But I’m human. We say I’m sorry. And talk to the kids about healthy arguments and unhealthy.
Post by sugarbear1 on Feb 14, 2024 15:55:11 GMT -5
Wait. Do not spend all of your inheritance! In most states, that is YOUR money and if you spend it while you are married it becomes community property.
ETA: I see this has been covered.
Like others have said, if you already know that your marriage is over, what is the point of fighting? End the conversation and do what it takes so your kids know that it is not ok to speak to each other that way.
H and I disagree/bicker in front of DS. When we do so we apologize in front of DS too because we want to model the resolution for him too. We never yell or say mean things to each other.