Lying and stealing from 7 year old....help!

[clairebear]

DD1 is 7.5 years old and has been lying for about a year now. Mostly stupid stuff, but it's been pretty constant and getting worse. Recently she set up an elaborate story in advance about how her friend promised to give her $20 to buy stuff at the book fair (she had already taken in $20 of her own money the day before and I said she wasn't allowed to spend any more). She came home with $22.45 worth of stuff from the fair (she dropped the receipt in the car), and finally admitted that she asked her sister, who's 5, for $22 so she could buy stuff without me knowing. I made DD1 pay back her sister and took away everything she bought the second day from the fair. I also took away all her cash from her piggy bank and kept it in a safe so she has to ask permission to use her money. 

Her younger sister confided that DD1 was sneaking candy from the candy basket in our pantry so I just locked it away without discussing it with anyone. DD2 told me where DD1's  candy stash was which was correct and I took it away, but didn't make a big deal out of it. Then tonight, DD2 confided that DD1 has been stealing cash from me. A $100 and $50 bill from a petty cash box in the kitchen. DD1 offered $50 to DD2, but DD2 returned the money to the box. DD2 said DD1 has also been stealing smaller bills from my wallet. I searched DD1's room and found a 100 bill. DD1 says she hid it there from her piggy bank, which I don't think so because she's never recently had that much money. She had several hundred dollars after Christmas, but we put most of that in her bank account pretty quickly. I haven't noticed anything specifically missing from my wallet, and I don't know the exact amount in petty cash, so I'm not entirely sure if DD1 is to blame. My gut says she has been stealing from me. DD2 has always been honest so I don't think she would lie about this.

DD1 a straight A student and has zero behavior issues at school. At home we've been dealing with low impulse control, overblown reactions to situations or changes, and some physical lashing out to me, but not to sister or dad. I took her to the ped because I was at the end of my rope with the behavior issues, and the dr referred me to a private mental health therapist who does parent coaching. Honestly hasn't been that helpful, basically a generic cut and paste recommendation about helping her regulate by using a calm down space. While helpful in certain situations, nothing she's offered is tailored to our specific situations including the lying. I intend to talk to her more in depth tomorrow, especially since the stealing thing popped up tonight. 

Any ideas? Suggestions? Anyone's kids do similar stuff with lying and stealing? And how did you respond? DD1 knows H and I are mad about the situation (there was not yelling, just a calm discussion about telling the truth, but she never did admit to anything), but no consequence or punishment has been set yet. I did take the $100 back and I'm hiding the money better. I feel like I'm a little out of my depth right now. 

[sdlaura]

Ooof, I’m sorry. My kids definitely lie sometimes (even the 3-year-old, like claiming he washed his hands when he didn’t), but we haven’t dealt with the stealing beyond like stealing an extra cookie or something. I’m not sure how I’d handle the money stealing. I’d probably start with Google? As well as this board. Good idea to ask here. I would probably pursue the pediatrician referral for the broader behavioral issues and also ask that professional about the lying and stealing.

FWIW, my now 10-year-old DS1 had a really rough time as a 6- and 7-year-old. I think a lot of it was due to pandemic shutdowns and lack of routine, but some of it could have just been the age. He talked about killing himself during that time. I sought professional help but wasn’t able to find much at the time due to huge demand likely resulting from the early days of the pandemic. And then schools reopened and he got back into a routine and matured and we haven’t had those same issues since.

[cricketwife]

I didnt want to read and not respond. I’ve had times in parenting when I have not known what to do with my child and it’s such a hard place to be. I’m sorry that you are dealing with this. I haven’t dealt with anything like this so I don’t have any good advice. I hope you are able to find a therapist or someone on this board who can give you some good ideas.

Well done for not yelling and for seeking help. You are a great mom and I’m confident that you will find the answers you need.

[felicity]

I think it's great you're seeking help. I would personally try and find a new therapist, and keep looking until you find one who helps you explore the root causes rather than giving generic advice. Even if you fix the behaviors of lying, stealing, lashing out, etc, if you don't get to the root of it, it'll just keep coming out in other ways. Even if it doesn't feel like it, it's a good sign that she behaves at school and does this stuff at home.

ETA: and I totally feel you on the lashing out. When DS was younger, he would lash out at me violently sometimes. It's not your fault, but I am really glad I went to (and still go to!) a lot of therapy and read a lot of books to figure out what was going on and change how I related to him in ways that worked for him. It was a long process but worth it in the long run. It was awful and I'm sorry you're going through this. 

[ssmjlm]

It sounds like the therapist isn't a good fit and I would look for a new one. I would also let the pedi know that their recommended person/office wasn't helpful either.

[expectantsteelerfan]

I've been through a very similar situation with my ds. He has ADHD, so impulse control has always been an issue with him, and his moral development is not what I would call 'typical' as well. He has no problem breaking rules that he doesn't 'buy into' and when he gets caught, he will deny and blame others even when he is caught red-handed. It's gotten better as he's gotten older and matured (he's 14 now), but we've just had to be consistent with giving consequences and taking away temptation.
When we caught him stealing money from his sister, we took both of their wallets away and they both had to ask if they wanted their own money to buy something (dd so that he couldn't take more from her). It was only about a year ago that they got access to their money back.
As for stealing from you, I would make her do chores to 'pay back' what she might have taken.
When ds loses things because he doesn't follow the rules with them (mainly his electronics, which are supposed to be put away/in our room overnight and he would 'sneak' them and use them more), we discuss with him what he would like to do to 'earn' them back. But we basically always have to monitor him when we know he won't care about our specific rules if we want them enforced, whereas we don't have to do any of that for my younger dd.

[momof2]

First, you need an ADHD evaluation.

Second, you need a new therapist.

[heygrey]

My first thought was an ADHD evaluation. The impulse control and emotional lashing out at you are what stick out to me.

[mae0111]

I agree with the ADHD evaluation. We had a lot of the behaviors you’ve described with DD1 at home at that age. Stealing, lying, impulse control. She was diagnosed with ADHD at age 9. Her teachers were surprised - she was also a straight A student with absolutely no behavioral issues at school.

Medication had been helpful, as well as therapy. Our first therapist was a terrible fit even though she came highly recommended. Our current therapist has been much better.

Good luck!!

[acr]

My 7 yo DD has been lying a bunch lately too. We get near daily calls from her via the nurse's office for made up ailments. Then she'll later deny saying she threw up (or whatever it may be). We also have the candy sneaking issue. It's frustrating - we didn't really go through this with my older one. At home, we mostly start modeling how we don't believe her anymore about a lot of things, and it's going to be hard when she needs us to actually believe her.

DD has been in play therapy with a bit of CBT mixed in for about 2 years for anxiety and perfectionism (plus she's on anxiety meds) - I think we'll probably bring this up with her therapist as another thing to work on.

So no solutions - just commiseration!

[redpenmama]

My oldest lied a lot around the same age. Only to family -- she had no behavior issues at school and didn't lie to teachers. The one that stands out the most to me is when my H took her to a college basketball game. She came home and told my parents (we were visiting them) that she got on the Jumbotron and then got invited onto the court to meet the cheerleaders after the game. Didn't happen. She had a few more like that where they were just really elaborate stories -- there was really no harm to them, but I was concerned it would escalate into lying about everything.

It never did, and she outgrew it. I did not believe anything she told me for a while and that was hard. She told her friends' moms stories a few times and I had to sheepishly be like "nope, not true."

So, I don't have a lot of advice but wanted to commiserate. There could certainly be some underlying issues like ADHD mentioned, but it may also be a phase.

[pugz]

another rec for ADHD screening. Girls can mask really well at school and then at home the issues pop up more. Impulse control and emotional outbursts are classic signs of ADHD.

[mrsGreeko]

I think some lying is developmentally normal. The general advice is don’t ask them questions you know the answer to and give them an opportunity to lie. So like if you know they didn’t brush their teeth you don’t ask did you brush your teeth? You say something like I see you didn’t brush your teeth yet, please go do that.

As for the stealing, 2 of my kids did some light shoplifting when they were young. Probably more around 5 or so. We made them return and apologize and then they lost some privileges at home or something (it’s been awhile). But, we realized that the root cause of the shoplifting was that we would tell them they couldn’t have x, they needed to save money to buy it. Except they had no money, so we instituted a weekly allowance after that so they could save up to buy things they wanted. It was important to get to the root cause in our case. Maybe there’s a root cause in your case too so it might be worth examining it from a failure analysis standpoint (that’s my day job so that’s probably why we did it that way).

Also, the two children that did the shoplifting did go on to be diagnosed with ADHD and the kid who did not ever shoplift did not. Now that’s not to say that all kids who steal have ADHD, however the lack of impulse control involved in stealing is also an ADHD symptom. One of my shoplifters is a girl and one is a boy. The girl was not diagnosed until she was almost 16 and by that point the lack of impulse control was getting her into much more serious trouble. She just masked really well (also gifted which made it harder to see) so it wasn’t as obvious. The boy was diagnosed when he was 7. He very very obviously had ADHD.

Also, something to possibly consider is that your younger child might be getting attention from you for turning in big sis. So younger child could potentially be hiding some things in big sis’s room and then telling on her. Not saying it is what is happening, but there is a possibility there. I have three kids, they can be very mean to each other sometimes and there have been times through the years that they relish in the others getting punished. So something to ponder and consider. I know you said she’s always honest, but kids change and if she got a lot of attention for turning in big sis the first time she might keep it up and manufacture ways to get that same attention.

[gretchenindisguise]

Yup - get an ADHD eval.

This line in particular stood out to me "At home we've been dealing with low impulse control, overblown reactions to situations or changes, and some physical lashing out to me, but not to sister or dad."

Also - the lying and stealing may be for the dopamine hit.

[jennistarr1]

I will tell you I feel like I have the best kid in the world and her one character flaw is....lying, or at least not giving a version of full truth or everything has some explanation and I honestly don't think that she can get to a place in her mind where she realizes she's wrong here.

One time (and this story is cringey and you can judge me for it)...but I needed to take it as far out as I could. She was basically blaming her infant sister for something that physically the infant could not have done. I pointed out to her that it would be impossible for sister to do, and she still insisted she did it so I said I would need to punish her...in fact spank her for it...and asked before I did that, was she sure that her sister did and should be punished. She told me "stay strong mom".

I can think of so many times I've made it safe for her to tell the truth...and shown her your punishment would have been x but because you were honest your punishment is x-1. Right now (and she's almost 9)...I'm boiling it down to personality, which is not helpful because I don't know how to work around that if I believe that's just who she is.

Back to you (and I hope my above reference shows you are not alone). I would give more access to things. For example, most money should go to the bank (and then they need to ask for $ for whatever purpose)...but up to 10 or 20 they could have access to and not need to take. Same with candy basket. Have a basket they have access to. It doesn't have to be full or all candy...but give some rope where you can.

[grover]

My DD turns 7 next month. The lying started big time in January. For us, it coincided with starting anxiety meds, but the panic attacks completely went away with the start of the meds.

We also have the impulse control, overreacting to little issues, and sometimes physically lashing out to me only. I've actually gotten two teacher calls within a week of each other in the past month as well- one for impulse control and interrupting in class, and other was an inappropriate comment (a classmate was going to die- but it wasn't out of nowhere- another student started a story about a killer bird lose in the lunchroom), but then refusing to admit to saying it, and then when the teacher asked what's going on lately she told her our dog died the previous night (total fabrication- as our one dog is about to turn 10, and the other dog passed a year ago today).

We are meeting with a neuropsych next week to start eval for ADHD.

[bee20]

Not a parent, but my brother did this all the time, with food, money, even family heirloom things like my dad's coin collection. Fast forward 30 years, his son is AuDHD and sneaky. For both of them it seems to be a crime of opportunity, I remember if my brother knew something existed and I hid it, he would keep looking for it, but if he knew it was gone the game was over. His kid is your daughter's age so sometimes we can just hide things up high and he'll forget about them, but it's a good idea to remove the temptation, whatever that means for your daughter.

If it helps, my brother is now a stand-up member of society, and I doubt he's stolen anything since he was a tween. He's not medicated but has learned a lot more coping skills and honestly, video games really helped him do that deviousness without any real world consequences when he was more tween and teen age.

[al dente]

I heard about the Ask Lisa podcast from this board and have really liked it. She's a child psychologist and has written a few books.
Anyways she had an episode called "lying, sneaking and cheating. What keeps kids from being honest?" that might be worth checking out.

She works with older kids btw, so it won't be like toddler related lol.