Pro-vaccine research?

[Deleted]

You can't argue sense with someone that thinks the CDC is out to get them. Don't try.

[pugz]

lots of info on the CHoP page

www.chop.edu/service/vaccine-education-center/home.html

[pugz]

I haven't read through all the resources on this blog but you might check it out and see what you can find there.

momswhovax.blogspot.com/

[Deleted]

The biggest thing that convinces me is talking to people that lived without vaccines (my parents = old = were children in a time when people GOT measles, mumps, polio, etc.).

Why does he not trust every public health organization on the planet? I'd say the burden of "proof" would be on him.

[niki]

Perhaps if you can tell us what he is saying, we may have a better idea of the info you need. Does he have a problem with all vaccinations, or just certain ones? Is he open to an alternate schedule? What does he think will happen if your future child does get vaccinated?

[atouchofklasse]

TBH I'm not sure who else would conduct these studies than public health orgs... (or industry).

[h]

There are plenty of non-profit organizations or medical organizations that are pro-vaccine. The National Foundation for Infectious Diseases (http://www.nfid.org/about-vaccines/safety), the American Academy of Pediatrics (http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/safety.html), CHOP (http://www.chop.edu/service/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-safety/), etc. Not to mention the vast majority of pediatricians you ask.

But most of those organizations ultimately rely on information from the CDC and FDA, so if someone thinks the government is not a trustworthy source of vaccine information, I would think they would still be skeptical of the various non-governmental organizations that make recommendations based on government information.

I am sure you could find plenty of published studies regarding the safety of vaccines, but I bet the many of them received some form of government funding.

[h]

I don't think it has to be all or nothing. Most pediatricians will work with you on spacing out or delaying vaccines a little if that would make your husband feel better. From what I understand, the Dr. Sears Vaccine Book takes a somewhat middle of the road approach and recommends an alternative vaccine schedule that involves delaying and spacing vaccines but ultimately still results in a fully-vaccinated child. You might check that out. FWIW, I personally would be concerned about delaying and spacing too much and leaving a child unprotected, but I would certainly prefer that to not vaccinating at all.

[barefootcontessa]

You could try the Dr. Sears book about vaccine. It talks about all the knowns risks, the disease itself, etc. I vaccine my children but not for everything. I see no reason why my newborn needs a Hep B vaccine, for instance, since no one in our household has it and my children are not in daycare. Samething with rotavirus. pertussis, measles, hib, we give them those, among others. I also think there is wisdom in seeing how your baby handles one vaccine at a time.

[Deleted]

I don't think every question is crazy. We don't do Hep B in Canada until grade 6. I skipped rotovirus (and honestly... it was because getting it was inconvenient and by the time I got my shit together it was passed the recommended window where it's most beneficial). I can see skipping the flu shot in some situations.

But people that skip MMR and polio... well, I do think they're nuts. Measles is super contagious, 40% of cases in 2011 had to be hospitalized, and it is constantly getting dragged back from other countries. My city had a case this month. I can't imagine risking my child's health like that.

The thing is that studies cost money, so all studies will eventually track back to either government dollars (CDC or equivalent in other countries, WHO) or pharmaceutical companies.

[h]

Oct 31, 2012 11:10:16 GMT -5 @tokenhoser said:

I don't think every question is crazy. We don't do Hep B in Canada until grade 6. I skipped rotovirus (and honestly... it was because getting it was inconvenient and by the time I got my shit together it was passed the recommended window where it's most beneficial). I can see skipping the flu shot in some situations.

But people that skip MMR and polio... well, I do think they're nuts. Measles is super contagious, 40% of cases in 2011 had to be hospitalized, and it is constantly getting dragged back from other countries. My city had a case this month. I can't imagine risking my child's health like that.

Hep B is one of the few vaccines that we delay. At the hospital even my very pro-vax ped was like "I have to offer you Hep B. You don't want this now, do you?" We also skipped rotovirus with DS1 because there were some legit safety questions at the time, but I was comfortable with and did it with DS2.

I totally agree that skipping MMR is just crazy. I actually feel less strongly about people delaying polio because there hasn't actually been a case of naturally occuring polio in the US in over 30 years. (Don't get me wrong, I didn't and wouldn't skip polio and understand that there is still a risk there due to international travelers, etc., but if you must delay one of the vaccines, I would rather polio than MMR or something that your child has a substantially higher chance of actually catching.)

[Deleted]

The thing about the polio vaccine is it's so old and well studied, I just don't see a compelling case to skip/delay.

MMR and TDaP are more my hills to die on, though.

[h]

Oct 31, 2012 11:17:49 GMT -5 @tokenhoser said:

The thing about the polio vaccine is it's so old and well studied, I just don't see a compelling case to skip/delay.

MMR and TDaP are more my hills to die on, though.

Totally agree. I wouldn't and didn't skip or delay polio. But for those parents in the "I don't want my kids to have 3 or 4 shots at once" camp, I would say do DTaP, Hib, PCV, MMR first and hold off on polio if you must delay something to make yourself feel better.

[karinothing]

Swizzle - considering how many posts I see on a local board I frequent about how horrible rotovirus is I wouldn't delay that one either lol. It seems to go around a lot in the area and a lot of the kids pick it up in random public places.

[h]

Oct 31, 2012 11:31:00 GMT -5 karinothing said:

Swizzle - considering how many posts I see on a local board I frequent about how horrible rotovirus is I wouldn't delay that one either lol. It seems to go around a lot in the area and a lot of the kids pick it up in random public places.

I don't think rotovirus really can be delayed much--the last dose can't be given after 8 months. You pretty much either have to do it or not.

I think the reason some people skip it has to do with the vaccine history--the original rotovirus vaccine was pulled from the market in 1999 because of a serious side effect. The new rotovirus vaccine wasn't available until 2006, so it is relatively new. While I was comfortable with it by 2010 when by second kid was born, I will admit that I was nervous about it when my first was born in 2007 given the issues with the prior vaccine and the fact that the new one had been on the market less than a year.

I will absolutely do the rotovirus vaccine with this baby. Rotovirus is nasty stuff. (Though lots of the kids who get it are vaccinated since it only prevents something like 75-80% of cases.)

[bunch]

I have no answer to your question but I feel you on your H's quirks. There is a lot that I just shrug off and let mine have his way with, but I know that this would be a hard fight in my house.

[womet]

Swizzle, PM me if you want information. I'm happy to email you articles, etc.

[sewpinkgal]

Oct 31, 2012 11:03:57 GMT -5 @246baje said:

Peggy could you send me that link as well? My MIL who is awesome in lots of ways and vaxed her kids has become anti- vax.

Wait, we have the same MIL?!

[hannamaren]

I disagree about exposure to hepatitis. We dont get the vaccine until the kids are older and it isnt covered (i dont think)
My friend and I were saying that we wish they just got it at birth.

[Deleted]

With regard to Hep B and Polio, I highly recommending talking to you pedi. Ours was very open to an alternate (spaced out) schedule a la Dr. Sears, but he recommended two changes to Dr. Sear's schedule:

-Do Hep B. Our pedi said it's very communicable. The example he gave was, an unvaxed kid at the playground has a bloody nose/skinned knee, DS touches those parts of that kid, and then puts his hand in his mouth. BOOM Hep B.

-He also recommended moving the Polio vaccine earlier, since Washington D.C. has the highest number of Polio cases in the country, due to our high immigrant population. Hens, the reason why there hasn't been a Polio cases in the U.S. in 30 years is because of the high compliance of vaccination. If we stop vaccinating, the disease could come back from international travelers as you said.

[karinothing]

That is very interesting supergreen. Thanks for sharing.

I heard some time ago that Dr. Sears mentioned that his theory is just made up BS but that he figured he would offer an alternative schedule for those that want it lol. I don't know how true that is, btu I think he just said there is no science supporting an alternative schedule.

[h]

Oct 31, 2012 14:53:53 GMT -5 @supergreen said:

He also recommended moving the Polio vaccine earlier, since Washington D.C. has the highest number of Polio cases in the country, due to our high immigrant population. Hens, the reason why there hasn't been a Polio cases in the U.S. in 30 years is because of the high compliance of vaccination. If we stop vaccinating, the disease could come back from international travelers as you said.

Believe me, I get that. We have always done polio on time. My only point was that if a parent is insistent on spacing vaxes rather than giving 4 at once, I personally think it makes more sense to wait a month on polio than to wait a month on DTaP given the relative prevalence of polio versus pertussis. I wouldn't and didn't delay either, and I would never advocate than anyone not vax for polio at all.

But are you sure your doctor wasn't referring to DC having the highest risk of polio cases in the US rather than the highest number of polio cases? I am not aware of any reported polio cases in DC (or anywhere in the country) since the late 1970s, and I am not finding any mention of recent polio cases in DC by googling.

ETA -- According to the CDC there were 8 cases of wild polio being imported to the US between 1980 and 1993. No imported wild polio in the last 19 years. I would never say its not a risk or that we should quit vaccinating, but I do think the risk of exposure is very small.

[Deleted]

Oct 31, 2012 15:17:15 GMT -5 h said:

Oct 31, 2012 14:53:53 GMT -5 @supergreen said:

But are you sure your doctor wasn't referring to DC having the highest risk of polio cases in the US rather than the highest number of polio cases? I am not aware of any reported polio cases in DC (or anywhere in the country) since the late 1970s, and I am not finding any mention of recent polio cases in DC by googling.

Yes, you're right. I wrote it out backwards. Thanks for clarifying.

[h]

I feel like I sound anti-vax, and I am so not! Other than a two-week "delay" in Hep B from birth to their first ped appointment, my kids are vaxed on schedule. I think I am just bored .

[pugz]

yeah the Dr. Sears schedule is really a way to get paranoid parents on board for vaccinating by meeting them in the middle. It quells some of their anxiety...but it is still risky to space them out. However, better spaced, than not at all!

[knitty]

You can absolutely go vaccine by vaccine, some, like Hib, are unquestionable, some, like varicella or hep B or flu are of much less importance. I would make up a spreadsheet for him. What you want to look at are the risks of the vaccine, which you can find on the web pretty easily, make sure you list actual things because they're mostly things like redness at the site, fever (and associated seizures, which the child gets from any high fever), rash. Also, effects of the disease and the incidence of those.

Is he receptive to logic? It can help to point out that it's always more stressful to actively do something than to not do it, so tell him he's going to feel more anxious taking a healthy child for a medication that has 2% chance of a fever than he is putting it off until they catch something with a 5% death risk. It's just the way our brains work, so you have to push yourself through that anxiety and do what logic dictates has the lowest real risk. It's like getting on a plane vs driving, you don't feel anxious when you start the car the way you do when the plane takes off, even though the car is riskier.

[knitty]

Oct 31, 2012 15:04:19 GMT -5 karinothing said:

That is very interesting supergreen. Thanks for sharing.

I heard some time ago that Dr. Sears mentioned that his theory is just made up BS but that he figured he would offer an alternative schedule for those that want it lol. I don't know how true that is, btu I think he just said there is no science supporting an alternative schedule.

There's no science supporting the current schedule, either, then. They are both equally arbitrary, (and with science supporting them to some degree, like spacing, boosters, etc) but the standard schedule is easier to do because it requires fewer visits, and they're spaced as standard well baby visits.

[karinothing]

Swizzle - Can you try to get him to explain his reasoning about vaccines? For example, is he concerned about the now debunked link to autism? Maybe if that is the case, you could show him articles/journals about how the research was faulty. Or if he is concerned about other adverse reactions you could show him the statistics on vaccine reactions vs. the rate of bad reactions if contacting pertussis or measles or something? (like how babies have died in CA due to whooping cough).

[chia]

Here is a list of publications that were done by researchers that work for either for academic institutions or insurance companies:

www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/library/vsd_pubs.html

It's research that's funded by the CDC, and the CDC is involved in some of the research... but, its "independent" in that the organizations that provide and manage the data are separate, and the research is published in peer reviewed journals.

ETA: most of them are "super-sciency" so they may not be of any help to you ...