If you like gutted old houses +::Juno::

[pitterwoo]

Just thought I'd share where we are with the gutting of one of the bedrooms. Each room that we renovate seems to get progressively more gutted. And just when I think we can't gut any more, my H finds a way.







Our plaster walls were all cracked and failing so H took the plaster down. On the exterior walls the plaster was applied directly to these terra cotta tubes and then there is a layer of brick on the outside. NO INSULATION.

Some of the terra cotta was loose, so H carefully removed those too in a small area. They are structural and they support the window, so he's planning out how to stud the walls. I'm so excited to be able to have insulation and to be able to have studs to hang things on. Wowee!

I'm also shocked that you can see through the wall right now. H remortared the brick tonight.

For window people: since we're tearing out so much should we definitely replace the window now? What's in place are plain white vinyl replacements that aren't new. The old window weights are still in the wall. Do we try to get something reproduction? Curious what others would do here.

[munkii]

See if it's possible to rehab the windows! I'm pretty sure Nancy's "Just say no!" campaign extends to vinyl.

[Deleted]

Wow. Your DH is very handy. Mine's a woodworker, but we'd never tackle something like that on our own. Kudos! I'm sure it will be so much cozier when you are finished.

Do you want my window treatise on old style windows (single paned, weight-and-pulley, nice wood)? I will write it, but if you aren't really really interested, it would be a waste Bottom line, if it were my house, I would go with an old style window (and did), because I find them 1000 times more charming than any modern window and because I believe they are as, if not more, environmentally sound as any modern wood window (definitely more environmentally sound than any vinyl or metal window). We had a contractor install some and we installed a few sashes ourselves on places that already had the weight pockets/frames. Hereonceagain can tell you about her recent experience with old style windows installed by someone else. Whether she would do it again or not, I do not know; she had a traumatic experience with a painter and some hardware If she doesn't come in, you should page her. There are a few companies that make sort of, kind of old looking windows, but I don't think they're the best modern windows out there (I think Fox (ETA: and the architect we used) tells me those are Marvins).

Whether to replace while you're at it, I cannot be unbiased. I hate vinyl with a white-hot passion. It's ugly, it warps, and I believe it's dangerous to our health, especially if you happen to have a house fire. However, it is unrecyclable and if you could get some more years out of it before throwing it in a landfill, that might be more responsible? I dunno. But it does seem like it would be easier to replace now

[hereonceagain]

I would definitely do it again, regardless of the hassle. Mostly for reasons Juno stated. I can't imagine us ever going with vinyl, unless it was a new build home, which I'd refuse to own anyway.

I'm sooooo thankful that Juno intervened when I was getting quotes for vinyl. Our house feels so much more homey and comfortable with the style of old wood windows. I think when people purchase older homes, replacing window with vinyl is the #1 mistake. And Juno didn't pay me to say that, lol!

[hereonceagain]

Oh and we only had to replace 1 metal window with a wood re-creation of the originals in the rest of the house. That one window cost us approx $1200 I believe, but it's actually three small windows in one large opening. The rest of our house was just original wood refurbished and restored.

[Deleted]

I'm glad you don't hate me now hereonceagain!

[pitterwoo]

thanks Juno and hereagain. I was hoping both of you would weigh in. I love the look of old wood windows, unfortunately our house didn't have any original window left. From looking around the neighborhood at the few original windows remaining, they should look like this:

That picture is from Marvin windows. They do seem to have really nice looking windows, but what you are suggesting is finding someone to go back to single pane with storm windows? Who does this, because I haven't seen it come up in my window searches?

[pitterwoo]

Juno, you were the one who first told me about double pane windows failing. It never occurred to me before to think about how long replacement windows should last. Silly, but I always hear about "new replacement windows" and it being such a positive selling point for efficiency that I just never thought about having to go through it all over again.

So even if we went with something pretty and wood like the above inspiration picture, this issue with the double pane glass is still the concern? I'm just trying to better understand the issues and lifespans.

Another concern that I always have when we're working on our house is overdoing things for the neighborhood. Our home is cute, but it's not a showstopper and never was. The neighborhood is modest and resale value for a lot of renovations just isn't there. How far would you be willing to go for the right windows or would you make a compromise?

[hereonceagain]

Is this your forever home? That plays a huge factor. We know this is our forever home so thinking long term fixes is a priority.

[hereonceagain]

Nov 13, 2012 22:28:03 GMT -5 @juno said:

I'm glad you don't hate me now hereonceagain!

I could never hate you.

I just get cranky with contractors/refurbishers/painters who don't get it right the first time. I expect perfection 100% of the time

[hereonceagain]

www.windowrestorationandrepair.com/about-2/restore-or-replace

Companies like this can recreate almost anything. Cost could be the only big factor prohibiting you from this choice. If you re interested, google window restoration and repair companies in your area, show them some pics, and get a quote. But again, if it's not your forever home, it may not be a great financial decision.

[Deleted]

Buckle up.

I guess a lot of the decision would depend on how long I was going to stay in the house and how much I cared about the environmental impact it would have after I left it (which I really can't control anyway, since the next owners might decide vinyl windows are just peachy). This is our forever home, not an investment, so we wanted forever windows. I know that attitude is not for everyone. We don't have kids, so I buy quality windows instead of funding a college education, haha (though in the long run, if you stay in the house, a quality window is FAAAAAAR cheaper than a stream of cheap vinyl).

Most of my info is on rehabbing old vs. replacement. If those were your choices, I would 100%, without any hesitation, say rehab the old windows. I believe any other decision is foolish on almost every level. But that's not your situation, which is why I just told you what I would do in your situation, not what you should do. I wouldn't fault you for not doing what I would do because everyone has different priorities for their moolah.

Depending on your climate and the condition of your vinyl, the payback period in energy savings could be decades, but I'm not sure if you will ever be able to find that out for sure from an unbiased source. Perhaps if you waited and used the hairdryer plastic window covering stuff for a month or two without changing anything else, you could estimate how much energy you are losing due to infiltrative air base on comparing usage on your bills in two similar months (a smart meter would make this much easier if you have one). Depending on your climate, you may never pay for any kind of window replacement in energy savings. For instance, hereonceagain is in mild SoCal. I'm pretty sure she could just have empty holes in the side of her house and not notice an energy bill difference, haha. I have no firsthand info on resale value of windows.

IF this isn't your forever home and you just don't want to spend the money on long-lasting windows:

I can't help you on what to get. I only know the old kind and Marvins because that's what I've done endless reading/asking questions/restorations on. I'm sure there are lots of options between vinyl crap and tricked out clad Marvins, and I'm sure there are some that are almost as good or as good as clad Marvins.

IF you decide you want a long-lasting, quality window:

From what I've seen shopping around, Marvins and my custom old fasioned (let's call them COFs) cost about the same. However, there are huge differences in price between quotes on all windows, so I'd get multiple quotes on any kind. My window guy's COFs don't include the storm, which we built ourselves for about $50 per window, or our wood screens, which we probably built for probably $15/window. So it may not be a matter of a huge price difference if you want a quality window; it might come down to other factors.

The pros on Marvins over COFs are that they are mass produced, so just about anyone will be able to sell them to you and install them for you; they are double-paned, so you don't have to worry about storms, though they would be even more efficient with storms; and the experts I know (Fox, my window guy and our architect) tell me they are the best new window. The cons of Marvins are that they usually have vinyl/metal sash channels, which I find ugly as sin, but sane people don't notice; they are double paned, so they will fail, it will just take them longer (my reading indicates maybe 50 years?); they are double paned, which just doesn't look right up close, though again a sane person wouldn't notice; and per my window guy they are made from finger-jointed pine unless you pay for the fir upgrade ($$$), so they usually are going to have to be painted, and I just like my stained woodwork. My window guy seemed skeptical of the 50 year number I've seen quoted for the pine windows, so I don't know. My parent's top-of-the-line stained wood double panes installed in 1980 failed in about 1998 or so; technology has no doubt gotten better, but I don't know by how much. My grandmother's single panes from the 1800s are still in and going strong.

The pros on a COF are that there is abosolutely nothing on them that I cannot fix myself for the rest of my life. Maybe if we got some rot I would call someone in, but even on my originals we haven't had any rot. I don't have to order a new glazing unit if one breaks or fails (and hope they still make one that fits), I don't have to pay a contractor to come fix it, I don't have any irreplaceable plastic parts that hold it or tilt it or make it dance or whatever it is that windows are supposed to do now. Per the National Lab testing, my originals + storms are as efficient or more efficient than a new window. The cons on a COF are that in a cold climate, they will need storms to be their most efficient; and it can be as hard as fuck to find someone to make new ones (ETA: out of high-quality, long-lasting wood) for you for a reasonable price. I was really lucky that I live in an area with lots of old homes and historic districts, so I have some choices. I'm guessing in a small town, you'd be SOL, but it might be worth calling up a few carpenters or looking under "Windows" in the yellow pages/Yelp/Angie's List.

If you still have all your wood frames/weights, it might be a good idea to just price out old fashioned sashes. We did that for our dining room, and it was a little over half the price of a whole new unit, and we didn't have to pay for any installation.

[Deleted]

Oooh I love gutted old houses although yours gives me major anxiety!

That's going to turn out great! I can't wait to see what you do - I agree w/ an original window.

[pitterwoo]

Nov 14, 2012 15:09:48 GMT -5 @jennylove said:

Oooh I love gutted old houses although yours gives me major anxiety!

That's going to turn out great! I can't wait to see what you do - I agree w/ an original window.

ha, jenny you have no idea how right you are! This house has definitely tested my limits and sanity. Luckily I'd say we're far enough along with it that the worst is over and I've gotten pretty used to the level of chaos.

[pitterwoo]

Nov 14, 2012 22:50:08 GMT -5 @domerjen said:

We got the Marvin Integrity windows for our kitchen reno (the same style you posted). They are fiberglass on the exterior (paintable) and wood on the interior. I wanted to get reproduction windows, but they were cost/time prohibitive for us. We're going to restore all the original windows in our house that are left (there are 14 I think).

I'm afraid that reproductions will be too much for us too. If you liked who you got your Marvins from locally, can you let me know? I know we are in the same general area. Thanks!

[pitterwoo]

Nov 14, 2012 0:03:10 GMT -5 @juno said:

Buckle up.

so much great info and things to think about. I wish we still had the original windows, then this would be a no-brainer and I would save them. I hate the vinyl windows and really want a window that looks like a real window, not like plastic and can be painted to match other colors, etc. So, I know that I want something that's a higher standard than what we have.

For now I think I need to first decide if the window should be replaced now while the room is being worked on or if we should wait because I don't think they're really leaking.

The overall energy efficiency on windows isn't my biggest concern. We've done a lot with weather stripping and stopping air leaks and insulating where we can like the attic and various spray foam uses. Our heating bills were $600 a month in the winter when we first moved in and they are about $250 now and that's actually at a more comfortable temp. The $600 bills were at the lowest setting to just get by. When there's no insulation in the walls I'm pretty sure that the difference between windows isn't an investment that will pay for itself any time soon.

I just want something pretty and it will have to come down to how important that is to me/us.

[FoxInFiji]

Juno is right. Look into restoring wood windows in good condition first. Then look into new windows.

We installed both Marvin Ultimate (wood with aluminum clad exterior) and Marvin Integrity all ultrex (aka. fiberglass) windows in our remodel. We'll be using the ultimates throughout the house but the fiberglass ones were used in the bathroom because in our cold climate they are likely to sweat from the humidity even with good ventilation. Needless to say we love all of the new windows but the ultimates are x100 better than the integrity windows. The way they open, how solid they feel, how easy they are to work on in the future (ultimates have removable interior pieces for staining/painting or replacing glass), the hardware, and the ease of install on the exterior (we got new construction for both). I knew that I would probably like the ultimates better from seeing them in the show room but I had no idea how much more I would LOVE them until I saw them installed in our house. The cost was a bit more but not anything near what new reproductions would be but we were also able to make standard sizes work. It was less than a $100 increase for a 3x4 casement window to go from integrity to ultimate if that gives you an idea. I can give you prices too but I'm not sure if you're in a similar COL area or not...

I can say with certainty that I'm very happy with our decision to go with Marvin windows vs Anderson, Pella, and some of the smaller local brands. Getting window quotes is seriously a long hard process. I didn't even need anyone to come to our house since we were moving locations, sizes and installing them ourselves and it was still challenging. My best advice is get a quote from every single supplier/installer in your area that carried Marvin and make sure you give them all the details they need so that the quotes are for the same product. Quotes will vary widely for no reason...one persons casement will be more than another's casement but their slider price will be significantly more than the first's.

[Deleted]

Fox, can I ask how much you paid per unit? We paid $800 per for the reproductions for fir (that was average, our 8 windows ranged in size from 2x3 to 4x6). I got the impression when shopping that the fir Marvins weren't going to be much, if any, cheaper. But maybe I'm wrong about that. For the ones where we just needed the sashes because we had all the weights and pockets, he charged us $500 per window ($250 per sash) for holes that were about 3.5x5.5.

Not pushing them on you pitterbull, I just want to be able to correct my impression that the cost difference b/t the nice Marvins and the reproductions isn't that dramatic if it's not true.

[SusanBAnthony]

Can someone explain the double panes failing?

We are likely making an offer on a house that got all new wood Pella's last year. They are beautiful, but I don't know much else about them. The other house that we could possibly make an offer on has the original windows (from the 60's) with storms. They are not in perfect shape, but pretty good.

The new Pella windows was a strong point of house 1. However, I read stuff like this and question that. We are somewhere cold, so we would need the storms on. We also have windows open all summer, so we would have to take storms off and put screens on and that sounds like a massive pain in the arse. Plus, this isn't necessarily our forever house, so I don't know that if we go to sell other buyers will agree with us that the original windows are awesome- I think it might hurt resale with the majority of buyers.

[Deleted]

The seal will eventually fail and they will fog (moisture will seep into the space between the panes and you won't be able to get it out). At least that's what happened to my parents. The time to failure seems to vary widely by quality of the window. The lifting mechanisms, a lot of which involve plastic parts, can also break. My sister's builders basic vinyl are breaking parts and fogging at 12ish years. I've read you can sometimes get new glazing for the sash, if you can find it to fit, but you might have to replace the entire sash or the entire unit once they are fogged. Finding the right plastic replacment doo-hickey can also be impossible. These things don't happen with single paned all wood windows.

If you really hate the idea of storms, you can also get very close to the same rating as a double pane with laminated glass I think, which does not have a seal/failure. But I'm not sure re-glazing an entire house with new glass would be my thing, especially if I already had storms. And if they are weight-and-pulley, you'd have to beef up your weights on all the windows to get the balance right. Maybe look at it this way: you'd be buying original windows, not spending anything to replace them all and then selling original windows. I can't imagine people are going to hate original windows when you sell more than they do now, so the hatred should be built into your (lower) buying price.

I use the storm/screen transition as a time to wash all the windows. That's a chore that needs to be done anyway, so combining them makes both less annoying.

[FoxInFiji]

OK let me pull up my huge nerdy window spreadsheet...but I'm going to have to post and run today. Juno the wood type on the Marvin ultimates is a big upgrade. If you had to have a certain wood then that alone is a big add not the window itself. We considered upgrading the wood but quickly decided not to since (1) we were going with cherry trim which isn't even an option nor a good wood to use around windows and (2) clear pine is actually fairly good when it comes to window construction, ease of staining, and resisting moisture issues from condensation around the windows which is important in our cold climate.

Like I said the quotes were all over the map for each and every option, window size, and window type. Here are all of my quotes from 3 lumber yards and a wholesale/showroom for the Marvin windows. Pella doesn't allow lumber yards or independent showrooms to sell their windows so there is nothing to compare their quotes to.

3'x4' Casement (a typical size and style for most modern homes)
Pella Impervia - $711
Pella Wood Alum Clad - $800
Marvin All Ultrex - $337
Marvin Wood Ultrex - $343
Marvin Ultimate Pine - $438, $485
Marvin Ultimate Douglas Fir - $460, $614, $485, $707
Marvin Ultimate Vertical Grain Douglas Fir - $675, $936
Marvin Ultimate Oak - $660, $697, $1058
Marvin Ultimate Mahogany - $660, $760, $962, $1281 <----See what I'm talking about! This is crazy cakes!


6'x4' Slider (our typical window size and style...the most comparable I have to a double hung which is typical in older homes)
Pella Impervia - $828
Pella Wood Alum Clad - $1297
Marvin All Ultrex - $388
Marvin Wood Ultrex - $470
Marvin Ultimate Pine - $704, $775
Marvin Ultimate Douglas Fir - $740, $889, $775, $1059
Marvin Ultimate Vertical Grain Douglas Fir - $978, $1403
Marvin Ultimate Oak - $1057, $1010, $1587
Marvin Ultimate Mahogany - $1057, $1102, $1464, $1920

I had Anderson prices as well but I can't find them. We quickly ruled them out for a few various reasons so I didn't look into them as much as I did Pella and Marvin.

[Deleted]

That's what I thought. Even the pine aren't much less than our reproductions in fir (and the comparable Marvin fir is a bit more). I really don't think cost is a deciding factor at all between Marvins and reproductions, depending on availability of a window maker and his prices. I think it has to come down to other factors.

[Deleted]

Don't overlook Loewen Windows. They are close to the Marvin price point and are beautiful windows.

[sweetpea508]

Your pics remind me of when we renovated our upstairs bathroom. Fun times. Unfortunately some ass hat put in the 80's cube glass and took out the original window. The window is positioned right where the wet area (clawfoot tub/shower) which is kinda good aesthetically but bad for privacy. We ended up getting the Pella wood with aluminum clad(cladded?) outer seal. We are re-doing our computer room and making into a nursery and rehabing those original windows. We are having to replace all the window sash cords because they were all cut. Luckily, I'm pretty sure they will be easy to get to. Our original windows are not square in the frame and we are definitely going to have to weatherproof them. When the wind picks up they shake and you can sometimes feel a breeze I think in the end we are probably going to replace them, I know that's sacrilege but I just feel like it'll be better in the long run. Just my 2 cents coming from a DIY'er with a 1918 house.

[sweetpea508]

Sorry for all the typos....off to bed.

[pitterwoo]

eew Sweetpea, I hate glass block windows. good luck with the repair or replacement of your other windows.

rehabaddict- I never heard of Loewen, I will add them to the list to google.

fox- thanks for the geeky spreadsheet!