Post by RitzyHeifer on May 24, 2012 13:18:46 GMT -5
Another side to this - I work in higher ed and we do vet preference for admission to the university. 1 year of active duty = you are accepted.
For a preponderance of them, it ends up doing them a disservice because they are not academically prepared; some did not even complete high school. A community college would be a much better fit but the GI Bill and state veteran's aid covers their costs so they are encouraged to go straight to university (where they fail out and have permanent damage to their academic records).
Post by RitzyHeifer on May 24, 2012 13:19:31 GMT -5
Also, I was a volunteer firefighter so I dragged someone out of a burning building (and got the shit beat out of me stopping someone from going back in). And put my life on the line for strangers. So I am qualified to comment on this.
Post by yellowbrkrd on May 24, 2012 13:19:51 GMT -5
I don't like the vet preference either.
I have respect for the military but it's not as though they are being forced into it. It's pretty widely known that people coming back from war or people with only military experience have a hard time finding a job afterwards. People joining the military are making the choice to join, just like the rest of us chose our careers.
My brother joined because he didn't know what he wanted to do with his life, they paid off all of his student loans and gave him a huge signing bonus. The money looked good to him.
Of course I haven't. I don't think those things are the only determing factors when deciding if I have done anything with my life.
I see how this could be a sensitive topic for you.
I also know vets who will get preference who also did none of the above...so should they not get the preference...only the ones who risked their lives? The ones who sat back and ordered supplies in a warehouse in Kuwait maybe gets 1 point because they never donned a gas mask or pulled people out of burning buildings?
What about the people who joined the military because they knew they would get a pretty sweet paycheck. I know a couple of those. It had nothing to do with self sacrifice or serving their country, but rather they didn't have any better options and a recruiter promised them the world?
Just threw more fuel on the fire I suppose...
pretty sweet paycheck? you must be kidding me.
i enlisted and was lucky i had enough college credits to be a PFC...it was not much pay at all for the hours we put in each day.
even on active duty until you get to the higher ranks you don't get much for pay, you live in barracks with a roommate most of the time (unless you are married)
enlisted get free meals at the DFAC unless you get permission to live off base and you get BAH to pay for what RENT in that area costs and you get BAS to buy food, which usually doesn't amount to much.
even if their motives weren't "to do something for my country" they still did it and gave up a lot to do so.
the only time you get a pretty sweet paycheck is when you are in a combat zone and an officer or higher ranking NCO...and if you are lucky enough to live in a HCOLA you get a high BAH and COLA differential if there is no PX/Commissary by you. and your pay is tax free. When i deployed, i deployed as a CPT. I went through OCS to become and officer and let me tell you it isn't care bear camp and if I got 2 hours of sleep a night I was lucky, and the pay sucked.
but living over there for a year sucks. have you any idea how many marriages fall apart because of that and families broken up???
you work a min of 12-18 hours a day (some days it was more like 20), 7 days a week...and you want to say we make sweet pay and get sweet bennies....well I didn't do my full 20 years 1 got out at 11 so i will have no retirement from the military...i had to choose between work, family, and finishing my masters or the military because the military was getting in the way of the rest of my life. you can't serve 2 masters.
if you feel that you were not selected and it was unfair, file a grievance and go through that process, otherwise take more training, more professional development, even try for other details to enhance your skill set to make you have more to offer next time, do every thing you can to make you stand out more than all of them.
when i wasn't selected i got to sit down with the person who interviewed me and we went over where i could improve to have made myself stand out over them and what i needed to work on and what skills to add
Selection must be made from the highest three eligibles on the certificate who are available for the job--the "rule of three." However, an agency may not pass over a preference eligible to select a lower ranking nonpreference eligible or nonpreference eligible with the same or lower score.
Example: If the top person on a certificate is a 10-point disabled veteran (CP or CPS) and the second and third persons are 5-point preference eligibles, the appointing authority may choose any of the three.
Example: If the top person on a certificate is a 10-point disabled veteran (CP or CPS), the second person is not a preference eligible, and the third person is a 5-point preference eligible, the appointing authority may choose either of the preference eligibles. The appointing authority may not pass over the 10-point disabled veteran to select the nonpreference eligible unless an objection has been sustained.
an objection to selecting the veteran can be aquired....you just have to really stand out and show how much more qualified you are.
I also know a vet who was not selected for a GS 14 spot that he had been doing a 1 year rotation in that slot, instead a guy close to retirement was given it so he could get his "high 3". It was between my friend and this other guy and they managed to get an exempt to not select the veteran.
I was mentioning this to my H tonight and he pointed out that if they are recent enough veterans the security clearance they have alone makes it easier for them to get government jobs.
I am also going to hell as he had an internal job interview today and I asked him if his being a veteran would help get him the job.
Yeah, I know, they served our country, gave up their lives, yadda yadda....
I also find this extremely disrespectful. I want to point out that if you applied for a job within your current company, you would have preference over an outsider because you have rapport with the company. A government job is staying within the same employer.
So those of us who don't opt to join the military haven't done anything with our lives?
Have you pulled people out of burning buildings? Have you put your own life in the line for others? Have you put a strain on your marriage by being willing to be in another country for years at a time? Have you been put in gas chambers without a gas mask for training? Have you been given Anthrax and Smallpox vaccinations or Malaria pills, just in case?
If I was as qualified as a veteran, and passed up for a job because he served, I wouldn't be a jerk about it. I'd go look for another job.
I don't really care about the preference one way or the other, but this type of attitude really annoys me. Acting high and mighty (especially over something that you didn't even do personally!) about a personal choice is ridiculous. Last I checked, no one is getting drafted and no one is forced to serve. I don't think volunteering for this kind of thing makes anyone an inherently better person or means they are living a more useful life.
Post by misshark122 on May 25, 2012 8:24:37 GMT -5
OK so we just had a job open up, it was highly coveted because it rarely opens up and pays over 50% higher than the contract equivalent job. A TON of qualified people applied, including a veteran that DID get an interview as well. She was also VERY qualified for the job. She did not get the job, a non-veteran did because she had better more relevant experience. SO being a vet does not guarantee you are going to get the job!!
I also agree. I like the idea a Of giving them a leg up but ultimately the hiring person shod be allowed to go w the most qualified regardless of vet standing.
I also agree. I like the idea a Of giving them a leg up but ultimately the hiring person shod be allowed to go w the most qualified regardless of vet standing.
they do go to the most qualified, if any bothered to read the OPM guidance.
every one interviewed is given a score, in the top 3 if there is a veteran (and there is usually a very tight if not identical score in the top 3) the veteran is supposed to be chosen, however, if in that top 3 the scores are vastly different, and the non-veteran has a far and away higher score than the veteran, the non-veteran can be chosen, but the hiring person does have to go to CPAC with the rationale and showing them the ratings and qualifications.
Veteran's preferance doesn't mean you are going to get the job if you are less qualified, it means you're going to get the job if you're evenly qualified with non-veteran.
it may seem unfair to some people, but they were willing to do something that many many people are NOT willing to do.
In my case, being a veteran didn't help me the first time around because I'd been gone too much from work so I was not in the top 3, let alone the top 10 for one of the positions I applied for.
If you want to be the top candidate next time, go back to the person who interviewed you and ask where you can improve, what other qualifications they would like to see, education, etc. That's what I did. I was told where I needed to improve and I set out on a plan to do that, and the next time a similiar position came open, I was the top choice even with out my 5 point veteran's preferance because I scored the highest out of everyone who was granted an interview.