Can we talk about sleep training?

[Deleted]

As I rock DS (9 months) back to sleep for the third time tonight at 4:45 am, we are considering sleep training and I have some questions. Some backstory: It's been 2 solid months of him waking up screaming 2+ times a night. He's not hungry (he night weaned at 6 weeks), wet, hot/cold, or in pain (he's already gotten ibuprofen for teething). I've rocked him to sleep since birth, and he loves it. Settles right down from the screaming and goes back to sleep. We talked to our pedi and he agreed that DS never learned to self-soothe. Our pedi recommended sleep training. He gave me the gist of it, but I have more questions and hoped we could talk about what worked for you.

1.) Why did you decide to do sleep training, and at what age? Or conversely, were you able to not do it (LO STTN on their own?)

2.) What method did you use and why? Ferber, cold turkey CIO, something else?

3.) How many nights did it take, and how long did LO cry each night?

4.) Did LO use any sleep aids, like a lovey, paci, or white noise? DS takes a paci, and I would like to try white noise but DH is against it. He thinks it's just another crutch to get DS to sleep, like rocking.

5.) And most importantly, did it the ends justify the means? I.e., did 3+ nights of crying result in LO STTN?


Any other insights you have on getting LO to STTN are welcome. I don't want to do CIO, but I don't see any way to avoid it. I'm at the end of my rope with sleep deprivation. Thanks!

[knitty]

Please read a few books before you jump straight into CIO. There are a lot of things you can try that are gentler. Ferber has a lot of chapters in his book, and a lot of steps to try before CIO. You should also read the no cry sleep solution and the baby whisperer. Then you can start with the gentlest things and work your way through only if they don't work.

I never did CIO, but I also never rocked my kids to sleep past three or four months. I just lay with them on a mattress in a closed room and waited fir them to fall asleep (essentially, we had issues with night hunger and getting cold at 5am).

[karinothing]

All I have to say is that sleep training =/= STTN.

- Signed bitter mom whose kid knows full well how to put himself to sleep and still woke up twice last night.

[Deleted]

We have been trying sleep training and we are failing.
I'm going to get a different book to try a new method.

[faith194]

Dec 11, 2012 8:08:58 GMT -5 karinothing said:

All I have to say is that sleep training =/= STTN.

- Signed bitter mom whose kid knows full well how to put himself to sleep and still woke up twice last night.

I absolutely agree with this statement. FWIW: We did CIO at 11 months, after Ferber just upset him more(read the book well before we started). We've had to "retrain" him after illnesses and such, as well. It sucks.

I would read Ferber, even if you choose NOT to do it! It is super informative.

[hopecounts]

we ferbered DD at 7 months.
We read the book first and followed it pretty much exactly (we shortened the intervals to 3 min.s, 8, 12 for the first night)
after 20 minutes on night 1 she was asleep, night 2 it was 5 minutes (we didn't even make it to the first check)
She has been a great sleeper since then.
She has the odd wake up due to teething/nightmare/when she had a cold but that's been maybe 4 times in the past 18 months. Ad she always goes right back to sleeping great and we haven't had to retrain her so far.
The transition to a toddler bed was a bit rough for about a week but she's adjusted now.
It was an absolute lifesaver.

[brit1017]

I love the book The SleepEasy Solution. It is a modified CIO. We did it for DS at 5 months, keeping 2 dreamfeeds for a few months. He went from waking every 1.5 hours to sleeping 12+ hours with 2 dreamfeeds within 4 nights. He also went from being completely exhausted and grumpy all the time (he even had little baby dark circles under his eyes!) to being the happiest kid ever. 100% worth it.

www.amazon.com/Sleepeasy-Solution-Exhausted-Parents-Getting/dp/0757305601/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1355234229&sr=1-1&keywords=sleepeasy+solution

[Deleted]

1) We did Ferber at 6, 8, and 18 months.
2) Ferber had more info and an actual plan with different solutions for different problems. Get the book. Read it.
3) At 6 months: about 3-4 nights, with up to half an hour of crying (with checks), to get him to go to sleep on his own. We didn't tackle night wakings.
8 months: we did a week of trying to tackle night wakings, no improvement.
18 months: 3 nights, less than 5 minutes of crying per wakeup.
4) No, he hates everything I've tried. I, however, love the white noise.
5) DS still doesn't STTN every night, but it's more than never which was the case previously. I was so gun-shy after that shitty week at 8 months that I just didn't try again for a really long time, though. That was a week of no sleep and tears and we gained nothing.

[jr009j]

1.) We sleep trained at 7.5 months after DD went from sleeping 11 hours through the night to waking up every 1.5 hours and then refusing to sleep unless one of us (usually me) was holding her. We had eliminated nursing her to sleep around 6 months, but were still rocking her down every night.

2.) We did Weissbluth's full extinction method. So no checks.

3.) 3 nights- The first night she cried on and off for 45 minutes. If I remember correctly, she cried for about 2-3 minutes and then stared at the door for 2-3 minutes until she finally settled into sleep. The second night she cried for 15 minutes. The final night she cried for less than 1 minute. I think she only woke up once the second night and cried for less than 10 minutes.

4.) DD has 3 pacifiers in the crib and does use white noise.

5.) DD has slept throught the night every night but 3-5 times since we sleep trained her. The nights she woke up, there were other things going on (travel, moving, sick). She typically sleeps between 11.5 and 14 hours a night.

While we had a positive experience with CIO, DD has typically always been a good sleeper. She started sleeping through the night at 8 weeks and was pretty consistent about it. She only stopped sleeping as well when her separation anxiety developed.

We still haven't sleep trained for naps and we really need to as she typically naps for less than 30 minutes a day.

[dcrunnergirl]

I suggest reading Ferber and Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child b/c they give a lot of information about sleep and several sleep training methods that you can pick and choose from.

[Saudade]

Dec 11, 2012 8:08:58 GMT -5 karinothing said:

All I have to say is that sleep training =/= STTN.

- Signed bitter mom whose kid knows full well how to put himself to sleep and still woke up twice last night.

This. My kid goes down just perfectly for every nap and every bedtime. Last night he was up every 2 hours. He's 9.5 months. He'll have nights where he only gets up once or twice and then back to every 2 hours.

[Deleted]

I didn't want to make my post super-long by describing what we've already tried. We did a couple things from "The Happiest Baby Guide to Great Sleep."

Dec 11, 2012 9:46:26 GMT -5 @ojo said:

We started Dr. Harvey Karp's "pick up/put down" method last night because this sleep regression hit us HARD. He estimates that with consistency, it should take 4-14 days. My kids are too young for loveys in their crib, but we're working on introducing them.

I tried this method first, since DS wants to be in my arms. I must have picked up put down 50 times like Karp said. At 26 lbs he's just too heavy! My back made it two days before I couldn't even stand up straight anymore.

Karp's other techniques like "wake-to-sleep" sound like they would work for a young baby who's sleepy all the time, but I don't see how they would work on DS. I know I only tried for a few days and he says it needs almost two weeks. But...I feel like SUCH a bad mom admitting this...but I apparently don't have the patience at 11, 2, 4, AND 5am to finally get him to sleep after rocking for 30 mins, just to wiggle his foot or whatever as I'm placing him in the crib. He doesn't "open his eyes a bit and drift off to sleep" as Karp describes, he just wakes up. After the zillionth time I'm frustrated and angry, so of course DS is agitated too. I've never, ever yelled at him before, and last night I yelled at him to go to sleep

He STTN from 2.5-4 months, and his sleep has been crap since the 4 month wakeful. But he did STTN mostly, like 3-4 nights a week. The last two months he's STTN a total of maybe 3 times. I feel like i've created a monster with the rocking, and he needs to re-learn how to go back to sleep on his own, he used to know how.

[Deleted]

With a rocking association like you've got, I would go either full cold turkey CIO or Ferber CIO with checks. I bet you'd be sleeping better within 4 nights.

The thing is: you have to be ready to do it. You have to want to get through it more than you want to just rock him and go back to bed. You sound like you're there, but only you know how you really feel at 3 am. It's okay if you decide you're not ready, but if you quit the sleep training quit it for a few weeks at least. Don't do it halfway - it's really exhausting for you and confusing for him.

[mollybrown]

Dec 11, 2012 4:59:56 GMT -5 @supergreen said:

.

1.) We sleep trained at 6 months for both. We had to do it again at about 9 months for DD.

2.) We used Ferber both times. I definitely read the book, and decided to try that method because it made sense to me. I had previously read and tried to implement the No Cry Sleep Solution, but that book was a complete waste of time for us.

3.) DS was a hold out...it was about 2 weeks before he went to sleep without crying. We followed Ferber to the letter and didn't let up. We were a little softer on DD, and I think that's why she ended up regressing.

4.) DS had been swaddled right up until we sleep trained. We stopped that cold turkey the same night. We did introduce the white noise machine with ceiling projections. They were never dependent on them, but it was a good distraction.

5.) Hell yes! It is horrible to hear your child cry. Sometimes for long periods of time (both of my kids went on for hours in the beginning). But I was loosing my damned mind not getting any sleep, and I was back at work. I had so much more patience after they were sleeping through the night, and they were happier kids.

Also, Ferber addresses night wakings, and how to stop those. My son immediately slept through the night without waking, but my daughter didn't. It sucks even more to have to sleep train in the middle of the night when they wake up, but it is possible.

DS was breast fed, and another issue we had is that he had to be nursed to sleep. We stopped that cold turkey when we sleep trained as well. It was a rough couple of weeks for him, but he absolutely still thrived without the overnight feedings. He never went below the 90th percentile for weight even without the additional 2-4 feedings he had been getting overnight. DD was bottle fed, and we were more lax about giving her a bottle overnight. I do not recommend that.

No matter what, just remember that none of these things are 100%. I would have tried a slightly different method if Ferber hadn't worked for us, or tried again in a few months like a few other ladies mentioned.

[Deleted]

Thanks token, everything you said is spot on. I appreciate hearing that from someone else, and I value your opinion. I was also thinking Ferber with checks, since "pick up/put down" didn't work. I told our pedi we were trying that. Knowing me as well as he does, he said "I know you SuperGreen, and I bet you're not putting him down fast enough. It should be be pick up, pat pat his back, and put right back down. You're rocking him in your arms, aren't you?" Uhhhh, guilty as charged :: embarrassed face::

I assume Ferber w/ checks doesn't work for naps, there's just not enough time in a nap for multiple 15-minute checks. So what works for naps?

[Deleted]

It's up to you; you can keep doing whatever works for naps and know that you get less naps as time goes on, or you can CIO (Ferber has rules on how long to let it go before you abandon ship on the nap, I don't remember what they are).

Right now, because he naps fine in daycare and we only have to deal with naps on weekends, it's a bizarre tag-team approach where I nurse him and then DH pins him down to the bed until he goes to sleep. We weren't getting anywhere in the crib. Last weekend, that worked for us in about 10 minutes combined.

[vanillacourage]

With DS1, we did full CIO (he just got more upset if we checked on him) at 1 year. We started with naps, so that if he cried for a while then it was at 3pm instead of 3am. I think it took a couple days.

With DS2, just a week or so ago we did full CIO (again, checks just wigged him out more) starting one night at 1am when I just couldn't take it anymore. He cried/fussed for about an hour, with me staring at him on the monitor the whole time. He then settled back down, and in the days since has been much better about getting back to sleep. He still fusses, but it's usually for 5 minutes or less before he flops over and goes to sleep. Our problem was that he'd fall asleep in our arms, then wake up when we laid him down, freak out, then we'd pick him back up and he'd instantly fall asleep, then wake up when we laid him down - repeat over and over again, sometimes 5 times, making it a 1.5 hour process to get him back down.

Now, we only let him fuss/cry when we know he doesn't need something from us. He still wakes 1-2x/night to eat, and when he's cutting teeth badly we just let him come to bed with us. But if we know he's just basically protesting we have to let him figure it out. It sucked letting him cry that long but I just told myself that if I went in now, it would have made the previous 45 minutes of distress be for nothing.

[Deleted]

1. Around 8/9 months

2. Ferber

3. Not long, just a few nights

4. Knitted blanket, paci (taken away at 2), and white noise

5. Yes! I'm a big believer in sleep training babies. Everyone (including mom) needs sleep to feel their best. I was able to lay them down in their cribs awake and walk away. Now that they're in twin beds, I lay down with them at night but it's not a big deal.

My advice is to sleep train now. It is MUCH harder to do it with a toddler who can talk back to you and say things like "Mommy don't leave me, I'm scared" and other heartwrenching things like that

[Deleted]

Dec 11, 2012 14:57:29 GMT -5 vanillacourage said:

Our problem was that he'd fall asleep in our arms, then wake up when we laid him down, freak out, then we'd pick him back up and he'd instantly fall asleep, then wake up when we laid him down - repeat over and over again, sometimes 5 times, making it a 1.5 hour process to get him back down.

YES this is DS too!

Token, I rock him to sleep for naps, putting him in the crib asleep. Usually the first put-down sticks, about 30% of the time he wakes up when I put him down and I have to rock him again. It's easy though, takes about 15 minutes and he usually sleeps for about an hour. But I don't want to send mixed signals, KWIM? Like, "hey little man you can fall asleep in my arms for naps, but I won't rock you to sleep in the middle of the night anymore." So I'm thinking I should cut the rocking cold turkey. Which makes me so, so sad b/c I love feeling him fall asleep in my arms. But the night waking is unbearable.

Jenny, I do not think he's hungry. He's not giving me any cues that he's hungry. When he's awake and hungry, he nips at my shoulder or gives me this specific pouty face. With the night wakings, he never turns toward my breast or gives me the pouty face. He nestles right into the crook of my arm, opens his mouth for his paci, and falls asleep.

[Deleted]

We've had no problem doing something totally different for naps than night. He's an angel going to sleep at bedtime, but I do the exact same thing for naps he doesn't nap at all. So if your gut says it's time to go cold turkey, go for it, but if you just NEED a nap... do what it takes to get one.

[vanillacourage]

Dec 11, 2012 15:17:46 GMT -5 @supergreen said:

Dec 11, 2012 14:57:29 GMT -5 vanillacourage said:

Our problem was that he'd fall asleep in our arms, then wake up when we laid him down, freak out, then we'd pick him back up and he'd instantly fall asleep, then wake up when we laid him down - repeat over and over again, sometimes 5 times, making it a 1.5 hour process to get him back down.

YES this is DS too!

Maybe it's a fat baby thing? :heart:

[Deleted]

Haha maybe! DS is 99th percentile for weight, 90 for height, and..drumroll please....100th percentile for head circumference. Pedi said he's never seen 100% for head. So he's clearly not starving at night LOL.

Thanks token, that's good to hear too. He goes to sleep great for naps and bedtime, he just won't STAY asleep. Most nights he's in bed by 8:30, and wakes up screaming 2-3 times in the next hour or two. He'll usually take a paci and go back to sleep for those wakings, but it interrupts the only alone time DH and I get. He then wakes up screaming anytime during the night, usually 2:30ish and 4:30ish for which it takes roughly 30 mins to rock him back to sleep. Last night I rocked at 11, 2:30, 3:30, and 5:45 So I think when a sleep cycle ends he can't get back to sleep without me rocking him. I can't think of another explanation.