s/o controlling/abusive SOs (vent? long)

[crimsonandclover]

I know it's usually dead on the weekend, but maybe some of you can give me a tip or two. I've been holding this in all week but think I do need some advice. Sorry in advance that it's so long.

Remember the cousin who's always going on crazy diets? Well, she was in Europe for business this week and skyped me to tell me that her DH wants to leave her. Cousin and her DH are coming to the area tomorrow and we will see them. It'll be the first time I've met him, and Cousin has made me promise not to be mean. I'm trying to decide 1) how exactly to treat him (should I make nice for Cousin's sake? should I be the bare minimum of polite?), and 2) whether to just be supportive of her if she wants to save her marriage or whether to keep telling her this is emotional abuse and she needs to get out or she will be miserable forever.


The very abridged back story: He's a veteran and they met the day he got back from his 2nd tour in Iraq. He was still married at the time but in the process of getting a divorce. He has 2 kids (8 and 3) with his XW and an "oops" 17-year-old girl he got his then gf pregnant with when he was 15. Cousin wants kids, and he said he could imagine having up to 3 with her. They got engaged before he was officially divorced, but that was just (so said Cousin) b/c XW was dragging her feet and making things difficult even though she was the one who originally wanted the divorce.

So when she skyped me, she told me that when her DH was at his son's grade school graduation this past weekend, he saw his 1st gf again (the one he has the 17-year-old with who, btw, is pregnant herself now) and decided that he wants to give it another go with her. WTH? He told this to Cousin while she's in Europe on business. Cousin had just accepted a job in the Midwest so they could move to be closer to his kids even though she loves where they are now. Thankfully they hadn't moved yet, and both her mom and I advised her to stay where she is, keep her current job, stay with her support system, and turn down the other job.

She then told me that her DH left her standing out in the cold (literally) in front of their hotel at Thanksgiving, saying he wanted a separation. It took several phone calls before he even picked up and she talked him into coming down and letting her into the hotel so she could get out of the cold. He has told her he doesn't want her going to the gym and made her quit her bike-riding group because he didn't want anyone coming on to her. She says when he drinks he calls her a whore (she has a rather promiscuous past but has never cheated on a boyfriend), and now says he doesn't want kids with her anymore. He wants to go back to his 1st gf and settle down with her to "raise their new grandchild together" (he's 34). She tried to talk him into going to therapy with her, which he first refused because he tried it with his XW and it didn't work, but now has agreed to go both alone and with her.

Oh, almost forgot - sometime in the past year (she didn't specify when), when they had been out having a few drinks, she caught him making out with some girl in the bathroom. They agreed that was his one allowed "oops" and they would forget about it.

Again, sorry this was so long, but she doesn't want anyone to know and I don't know who to ask for advice. :-(

[vela]

I think he needs some help to get over some things from his past. After that, maybe he know how to move on.
For the first meet with them , I would be polite and nice and make some easy conversation.
And I would avoid every tricky subject .

[wise_rita]

Wait, am I reading this right? Your cousin is in Europe on business and her husband - who has said he wants to leave her for someone else - is there with her?

I must have low reading comprehension because why would anybody agree that it's a good idea for him to be there?

[Deleted]

To me it sounds like this guy is hopeless and frankly she must be even worse if she's willing to give him a shot at couple's therapy after what I read. I had to read the part where he came across an old GF, and subsequently told his wife that he wants to leave her for her, three times. I didn't think I read it right and honestly it sounds so bad I find it hard to believe it's true! (in the sense that it's too bad, not that you're lying of course).

I don't know, I would stay out of it. There's nothing you could possibly say or no way you could act that would help your cousin advance in her journey towards relationship health, she needs years of therapy.

I would treat him the same way you would treat anyone else you met for the first time, without letting yourself be influenced by what you know. It's ultimately her (theirs) decision what to do with her marriage.

Countless times I've seen people being honest for the love of another only to be judged as the BAD one in the end (WTH?); it's not worth it and you sound sensitive enough to end up really hurt if that were to happen. Hence my suggestion to stay out of it.

If your relationship with your cousin is such that in an intimate situation you feel it would be ok to give her your honest opinion, then go ahead, but otherwise I wouldn't display any of the feelings you have for this guy for all to see.

edited to add paragraphs

[crimsonandclover]

May 26, 2012 9:23:30 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

Wait, am I reading this right? Your cousin is in Europe on business and her husband - who has said he wants to leave her for someone else - is there with her?

I must have low reading comprehension because why would anybody agree that it's a good idea for him to be there?

Sorry, I know it's a complicated story that I was trying to make short and therefore probably made it more confusing. He is not with her in Europe. While she went on business, he went to his son's grade school graduation, where he ran into his ex-GF.

And Stellina, you're right that I'll be hurt if I'm turned into the bad one, but we are pretty close and have never pulled punches to try to save each other's feelings. On the other hand, neither of us has ever been in a situation like this before. I think you may be right that I'll just need to play nice even though I get pretty protective of people I'm close to and would like to tell him to GTFO of her life.

[clickerish]

Here is my advice, and it comes from having once been in an abusive relationship with the man who is now my XH. It will be hard for you to tolerate the man, but if you love your cousin, the absolute best thing you can do is to try to be polite, be extremely supportive of her and affirm her without confronting him. If she says something about the situation in private, reassure her that her instincts are right without slamming him. This will help her build her confidence in herself, in what she knows deep down inside is wrong about him, but not make her feel like an idiot for still caring about him. If she asks you about your relationship, emphasize that your husband always treats you with respect, that this is not because you are special but because every woman deserves that. Don't question why she loves him (because most of us do love the man who beats us up even though it makes no sense), just affirm her if she suggests that maybe loving him doesn't mean being with him. If she suggests therapy, let her know that it can be supportive for HER (not marriage counselling, which is a bad idea).

The people who were most helpful to me supported me every step of the way, always affirmed my decisions and my feelings even if they might not have agreed, and eventually I realised that I deserved to be treated with respect and dignity. That is when I decided to leave. When that happened, they didn't make me feel like a moron for waiting so long, but made me feel like I had resources to leave and rebuild.

[crimsonandclover]

Thank you, clickerish. That is great advice. When I first heard, I told her to imagine she was watching a movie of her life - what would she be telling the woman? She said the answer was obvious, but it's much harder when you're in it and love the man, so your advice really sounds like you hit the nail on the head for what she's feeling.

I told her that the goal of therapy shouldn't be to fix the marriage at any cost, but to figure out whether it will be good for them both to continue it. Is that what you would have wanted/needed to hear? Or should I not say that anymore and if she says she wants to save the marriage then just support her in that? She told me she's scared that if her marriage fails, then she's SOL for ever having kids, so I reminded her that my mom was older than her when she met my dad, and she still ended up with 2 kids. I don't know, on the one hand I don't want to give her any reason at all to stay in what I feel will always be an abusive marriage, and on the other hand I don't want her to feel like she's all alone - then she might cling on to the marriage even more.

I will definitely try to keep your advice in mind. Thank you so much for speaking from your experience.

[clickerish]

May 26, 2012 10:01:41 GMT -5 crimsonandclover said:

I told her that the goal of therapy shouldn't be to fix the marriage at any cost, but to figure out whether it will be good for them both to continue it. Is that what you would have wanted/needed to hear? Or should I not say that anymore and if she says she wants to save the marriage then just support her in that?

As far as therapy goes, pretty much across the board the advice is to advocate for individual therapy rather than marital. The tools that work in a "normal" couple with issues can actually come back hard on the abused person. Most abusers are pretty manipulative, and not only do they manipulate in the therapy, but it can make the home situation worse. If she is associated with a church, even more so since the tools that are meant to cement the relationship make it seem like God wants her to keep banging her head against the wall.

It's good that you planted the seed that maybe a marriage shouldn't continue if it's not good for both parties. If it comes up again, my suggestion would be to again reinforce the good of both idea, and to also suggest she focus on herself. That way she feels like she's doing something positive for her relationship but is actually getting help to be herself. Just supporting her decisions, making her feel like she is validated for who she is, that she can definitely survive without him and be worth something without him is huge. It's great that you mentioned that she could still have kids at her age--that sort of positive reminder that all is not lost without him is a HUGE support.

[crimsonandclover]

Thank you again, clickerish. Do you think I could PM you if I have specific questions after seeing them the next few days?

[clickerish]

Feel free. On this particular subject, as painful as it is, I try to be as open as possible. Hopefully, it can be of some help to her!

[violetsmommy]

I'm sorry that your cousin (and you stuck in the middle/somewhat) are going through this! On the outside looking in it always looks easy, but being on the other side isn't easy at all, even if you know what's "right" to be done. Clickerish did give some good advice.

[ninjatofu]

I'd be civil and polite and that's it. Or I'd try to arrange to see her without him.

He sounds awful and she sounds like a desperate idiot for being with him.

Sorry you have to deal with this, it will be hard not to deck him or at least give it to him verbally for having treated your cousin so badly.

[aMrsin09]

I didn't read the PPs, but after reading that my only real questions is if he plans on leaving her, why in the hell is going on family visits with her? When I told my ex live-in BF that I wanted out, I certainly didn't go to Sunday dinner with him the next week!

[crimsonandclover]

May 26, 2012 18:01:25 GMT -5 aMrsin09 said:

I didn't read the PPs, but after reading that my only real questions is if he plans on leaving her, why in the hell is going on family visits with her? When I told my ex live-in BF that I wanted out, I certainly didn't go to Sunday dinner with him the next week!

I KNOW, right? I have no clue what he's thinking, especially since they'll be staying with Cousin's parents, and her mom is not one to hold her tongue. He has agreed to counseling now, though, so maybe he's trying to have his cake and eat it too by having ex-GF on the side and Cousin as a wife who keeps forgiving? I don't know...

[CakeLover]

Wow! That sounds like a sticky situation. You've received some great advice. I have a situation similar to yours involving SIL and I would post about it but it would really seem like my life is all drama llama and its really not.

I have a hard time holding my tongue with family and friends but I always do. It sounds like you and your cousin have the type of relationship that you can tell her what you feel like and she'll realize you are there for support not judgement.

If you have to interact with him, be civil but if an opportunity presents itself have a civil conversation. Something to the effect of 'I'm not happy or pleased with the way you are treating my cousin, she deserves more and you are not providing that'. End the conversation with a swift kick to the balls. (joking) I'm civil with SIL's abuser but I don't go out of my way to make him feel welcomed. Mostly because I know she'll never leave him and when/ if she finally does he'll flip any discussion we ever had as the reason they never had a chance to work. Ugh, I don't understand these women. I know its scary to venture out from an old relationship but don't they realize they deserve better? Why be second fiddle when there are other people willing to put you first?

[lolo]

It's actually kind of amazing for an abuser to 'allow' her family time. Many abusers try to cut family out because this is the abused person's support network, and the abuser does not want that. This being said, I would not give the abuser an overt reason to avoid the family in the future. He may actually be looking for that opportunity; try to give him none. Be civil to him and, as clickerish has said, affirm and validate her feelings.

She is extremely unlikely to leave without a support network, so it's important that you preserve that support net for her if it is in your power.

Gblake, it's clear from the last part of your post that you don't understand these women or the relationships they are in. They are complex and difficult to get from the outside. Of course we all want women to wake up one day and leave their abuser. Sometimes the abuser makes the women feel like they DON'T deserve better--so, no, they don't 'realize' they deserve better. They are also often scared that they won't find someone else. The abuser plays on all of these fears.

My aunt has been in an abusive relationship for years. She often talks of him abusing her in these terms: 'It was my fault--I shouldn't have done x.' or 'I knew it was going to happen because I did y and he doesn't like that.' Many of these women believe it is their fault or that they deserve to be treated poorly. It isn't simply a matter of 'oh my gosh, my husband beats me! Well, I don't deserve that shit.'

There are some pretty amazing books out there on this, from fiction to non-fiction, that go some way toward understanding how it works that this beautiful, vibrant person ends up being held hostage by the whims of an abuser.

[popcorn]

May 27, 2012 3:24:43 GMT -5 lolo said:

. She often talks of him abusing her in these terms: 'It was my fault--I shouldn't have done x.' or 'I knew it was going to happen because I did y and he doesn't like that.' Many of these women believe it is their fault or that they deserve to be treated poorly. It isn't simply a matter of 'oh my gosh, my husband beats me! Well, I don't deserve that shit.'

I'm guessing gblake "understands" this aspect of it, but it it still hard to really understand never having lived it which I have not. However, my mom was in an abusive marriage for years before she finally got out, and that was mostly for her children (my 2 oldest siblings). Every woman in an abusive situation thinks whatever the abuser has done is their fault AND that when he comes back and apologizes that it really isn't going to happen again as long as she does nothing to provoke it. It's a very vicious cycle.

Crimson&Clover I think you're being a great cousin for coming on here and asking for advice. I hope the visit goes as well as can go and that your cousin comes to the realization soon that it is truly time to leave -- and that she has the support network to reach out to when that time comes.

[lolo]

Popcorn, yes it is hard to understand until you're in it, and even then, it can be hard to understand. I think it was the 'ugh' that threw me in gblake's response.

[CakeLover]

May 27, 2012 4:49:14 GMT -5 lolo said:

Popcorn, yes it is hard to understand until you're in it, and even then, it can be hard to understand. I think it was the 'ugh' that threw me in gblake's response.

I wasn't saying 'ugh' she's a bad person for allowing this to happen to herself. I'm sure that's how it came across. And yes, I know an abuser manipulates a person to believing they don't deserve anyone else and there is no future without them. I have seen this first hand with my SIL for 5 years. I've known her before she met her abuser and I know the spirit he has single-handedly crushed. Its painful for me to see on a regular basis. I have so many emotions tied to emotional and physical abusers. I'm just so sad that women in these situations are made to believe they can't get out of this situation.

LoLo is right I understand as an outsider but not as person who has lived through this. Those are two vastly separate things.

ETA: I think as much as I'm always trying to be someone's cheerleader on here I find I'm not that person in real life. I know its because I want to be the person who is shouting 'you are better than this person and better than the life they are giving you' but in reality as PPs have said it maybe turned on you as not being supportive. I let my SIL unload on me and the most I have to say is if he doesn't realize what he has in you then I don't know what you can do to change his thoughts. I would like to have a longer and greater conversation with her but I can't due to his controls. I liked Crimson and Clovers first response to her cousin 'if you were watching a movie, what would you tell her'. A brilliant way to make your cousin come to the conclusion herself!

[clickerish]

May 26, 2012 19:25:25 GMT -5 CakeLover said:

If you have to interact with him, be civil but if an opportunity presents itself have a civil conversation. Something to the effect of 'I'm not happy or pleased with the way you are treating my cousin, she deserves more and you are not providing that'. End the conversation with a swift kick to the balls. (joking)

Uf, no, I would NOT advocate for that. Because he will cut her off from her family, and it will be HER fault that C&C said anything. He will inform the cousin that since she is too stupid to keep private issues between them, this is why he has to look for others for support and she, in desperation, will stop talking to C&C. She will also beat herself up for not being a good enough wife. Confronting an abuser is never the answer unless the two are separated and not planning on reconciliation.

[mrspurdy]

This is a very tough situation. This guy is all about having power over your cousin. He degrades her and pushes her. Threatens to leave so that she can beg for him back. Total abusive power trip. I have an Aunt who has lived with her abuser. My dad and his siblings have offered help and tried to get her out of it. There is now one brother she doesn't talk to at all now. Be civil let him think that you like him and he will not feel threatened by your or your DH and will "allow" her to have time with you.
I know you are in a hard situation. When my sister's husband cheated on her and she left him. I was there and let her vent and of course not knowing better called him some names. She ended up going back to him and I was the evil mean one for not supporting her marriage and trying to break them up (she is now divorced and on her second marriage). So take the advise of the people and don't say what you truly think of him to her.

[crimsonandclover]

I'm so sorry so many of us have known people or even been the people in these kinds of abusive relationships. It honestly didn't even cross my mind that he could be telling her he wanted to leave her for the power trip of having her beg him to come back, but now that a few of you have suggested it, it sounds totally plausible.

I think I will take the advise of some of you BTDTs and be nice. It would kill me if he tried to cut her off from her family since she's across the country from us (well, across the ocean from me), so it would be pretty easy for him to do it.