Post by wrathofkuus on May 30, 2012 12:06:18 GMT -5
It's not held to a higher moral standard. It's being held to a moral standard, period. Bringing up how the US treats its immigrants is akin to bringing up abused children when someone talks about animal cruelty - it's a largely irrelevant distraction used in pretty much the same way kids ask why they can't do something if their friends can.
So what do you propose Israel should do? This is a genuine question. I'm curious about possible solutions on this specific issue.
I'm also curious about what non-Jews think regarding the safety of Jews now and in the future, in both the middle east and in the diaspora, especially if you believe that a Jewish state is unnecessary.
Post by wrathofkuus on May 30, 2012 12:15:40 GMT -5
I think that if Israel can't support the influx of people, then they should say that, just that, and with tact. Same as we should. An "I'm sorry, we feel for you, but we simply don't have the resources at this time to support so many new people coming in," without any comments on religion, ethnicity, race, or snooty comments on how they should stay in Egypt (despite what a crappy situation Egypt is in). And ffs, its people should behave with some tact and dignity, just like ours should.
As far as the safety of the Jews goes, it's hard to say. I don't think anyone who is fighting over the same land based on religious reasons has much of a leg to stand on or much of a stake in their own safety, but do I think another Holocaust is brewing? Probably not. There are too many countries who would welcome the Jews, ours included.
So what do you propose Israel should do? This is a genuine question. I'm curious about possible solutions on this specific issue.
I'm also curious about what non-Jews think regarding the safety of Jews now and in the future, in both the middle east and in the diaspora, especially if you believe that a Jewish state is unnecessary.
On this specific issue, I think they should do what other developed countries do - formulate a fair and logical immigration policy. Allow some refugees, as the economy and social safety net can bear, and don't use their religion as the sole basis of whether to let them in or not.
As far as the safety of Jews, I don't see why it's necessary to have an exclusively Jewish country to guarantee the safety of Jews around the world. Why are Jews not safe in the United States, for example? Must every ethnic group or religion have a nation where they are the majority and in power in order to be safe?
So what do you propose Israel should do? This is a genuine question. I'm curious about possible solutions on this specific issue.
I'm also curious about what non-Jews think regarding the safety of Jews now and in the future, in both the middle east and in the diaspora, especially if you believe that a Jewish state is unnecessary.
I agree that there are many many places that allow immigrants and people seeking asylum. I don't how how a temporary asylum couldn't be made basically anywhere at any time when the need arises.
And I agree that Israel most likely has plenty of logical, logistical reasons to not be taking in more people - no mention of ethnicity or religion needed - and save a lot of face and judgement.
I have a question for the supporters of Zionism: Do you think that every sort of person should have a designated sanctuary on the planet for them? Every ethnicity? Every religion? You know, just in case? Historically there are plenty of populations that have been persecuted as often as Jews.
I think the state of Israel is in a real bind. Its one thing to make a designated "safe space" for only specific people in the first place and its another to legitimize keep it that way throughout all time regardless of circumstance.
The bottomline is that right, Israel is NOT a safe space for very many of the people who live there, so again I don't get sticking to a policy that is just not working for the safety and peace of its citizens.
Personally, I feel that if Israel wants to limit permanent legal citizenship to people of Jewish descent, big whoo, I don't care. In fact, I'd argue that was the entire purpose of creating Israel so that Jews always have somewhere to go.
But that doesn't excuse their attitudes towards other races/ethnicities. The idea that African folks are more violent, more prone to rape is abhorrent and should be condemned by people who have historically been painted in a negative, subhuman light of their own.
I've never understood how Americans can argue Israel should just give it back without looking like big ass hypocrites themselves.
I don't think giving it back is feasible now. It'd be the same problem of displaced people who have lived there for their whole lives, perhaps some two generations of whole lives, being evicted. That doesn't become okay just because it's Jews rather than Palestinians.
I don't think there's much of a good solution. In a lot of ways, it's the location that's the problem. Several factions fight over the same chunk of land, mostly with wildly irrational justifications, and for some reason the rest of the world alternates between backing away slowly (reasonable) and trying to sort out who has the best true irrational justification (unreasonable).
And how many countries did the Jews live in and peacefully at that before shit got real? And how many of those countries protected them as their own when it all went downhill?
The numbers alone scare me and it wasn't long enough ago, not when compared to how long the Jews lived in those countries before and how quickly that was undone.
Is this (illegal immigration, or just immigration into Israel of non-Jews overall) a recent development? It sounds like it is but it's hard to fathom considering how much better off Israel is compared to its neighbors and how close it is to very poor countries.
I keep thinking about the end of Schindler's List when the Russians liberate the camp and the people ask where they should go now. West? "There's nothing left for you there." East? "They don't want you either."
Black folks have historically had places to go, places that would take them. I'm not aware of a a boat full of South Africans sailing from country to country only to be rejected by each and having to return.
This isn't to say I think Israel has been right in all or even the vast majority of its dealings because I don't think that at all. I'm only saying I can certainly understand wanting to be prepared as it were.
I'm sorry, I'm confused by what you're asking. Are you asking what boats full of Jews were denied entry at every port and eventually returned to the third reich? Or are you asking where boatloads of Haitians went?
I'm sorry, I'm confused by what you're asking. Are you asking what boats full of Jews were denied entry at every port and eventually returned to the third reich? Or are you asking where boatloads of Haitians went?
Where boatloads of Haitians went.
Back to Haiti. Well unless they were 45 weeks pregnant. In that case their young children were sent back to Haiti, they were allowed to have the kid here, and then I believe the women who had just given birth is sent back as well.
I'm sorry, I'm confused by what you're asking. Are you asking what boats full of Jews were denied entry at every port and eventually returned to the third reich? Or are you asking where boatloads of Haitians went?
Where boatloads of Haitians went.
I was under the impression that many were able to emigrate to other countries, including the US. I also wasn't aware the goal in Haiti was genocide.
If the US were to suddenly become anti-Semitic and turn Nazi Germany, then Israel is toast too, so that kind of defeats the purpose.
No one is saying they aren't safe in the US. What Israel is saying is that they don't trust other nations, including the US to take Jews should issues of genocide resurface given the fact that they took so few before claiming they had no room.
And given the fact that we still think we have no room for immigrants, I'm not sure they're wrong.
Back to Haiti. Well unless they were 45 weeks pregnant. In that case their young children were sent back to Haiti, they were allowed to have the kid here, and then I believe the women who had just given birth is sent back as well.
It was a rhetorical question.
I know, the mention of the subject gets me all riled up though........
Also, while the results can often be the same, I do think there is a difference between bad shit going down in your home country and making it a godawful place to live and your home country just up and revoking your citizenship because of your background and leaving you with no place to go and no protection.
Thing is no country has figured out immigration so I'm not surprised Israel hasn't either. I was surprised that they hadn't really started. That according to one of the men being interviewed, they were just now coming up with a policy.
What I'm sickened by in the meantime is the way they talk about these immigrants: monkey noises, politicians screaming "I'll 'deal' with them!", vandalism, assaulting innocent people because of their race, ...that kind of thing. That's the part that is really getting me.