US criticizes Israel on African immigrants

[summer]

Can we please please discuss this situation. I know TTT will come in, anyone else?

In the video: "as [reporter and immigrant] talk, a car drives by shouting monkey noises." That's what this is turning into. The video is where you really see how passionate people are about this. People are angry about the African immigrants. I totally get feeling like your country can't absorb a certain level of immigration and taking the steps to curb it, but these and this amount of anger and violent speech is absolutely shocking to me, especially coming from a persecuted people. I simply don't know what to make of this. It's crazy.



www.aljazeera.com/programmes/insidestory/2012/05/20125291044273790.html

The US State Department has criticised Israel's treatment of thousands of African asylum-seekers who it said are being denied basic social services.

"So many Jews not many years ago infiltrated other countries illegally and were saved and were denied and I would expect Israel to remember this. The main problem of Israel is that there is no immigration policy..."

- Gideon Levy, a columnist for Haaretz

The US' annual report on human rights issued this week cited statistics from the UN showing the plight of thousands of African immigrants in Israel.

Rights groups said most asylum-seekers have escaped conflicts in Eritrea and Sudan, and entered Israel through Egypt, but no official process is in place to recognise them as refugees.

According to the report, asylum-seekers without refugee status are not allowed to work in Israel and have no access to public social benefits such as healthcare.

The report also mentioned that Israeli government officials often negatively refer to asylum-seekers as "infiltrators" and periodically characterised them as "directly associated with a rise in crime, disease, and terrorism".

Thousands of Sudanese have migrated through Egypt to Israel - many smuggled in via the Sinai - but entering illegally means they are denied work permits.

The US report revealed that Sudanese and Eritrean asylum-seekers are not allowed access to asylum procedures.

"These people are not fleeing directly [from] a war zone. They have come from Eritrea or Sudan into Egypt and in Egypt their lives are not in danger. They are not being persecuted in Egypt and therefore after they have fled to Egypt they have chosen to illegally come to Israel and that makes their situation completely different..."

- Yigal Palmor, an Israeli foreign ministry spokesman

Instead they are given what is known as "renewable conditional release" documents which defer deportation and have to be renewed every few months.

Citing figures from the UN refugee agency the report said out of more than 4,000 asylum applications this year alone, only one was approved.

The report also showed that more than 6,000 cases are still pending.

According to the Israel Association for Ethiopian Jews, there are about 85,000 Ethiopian Jews in Israel now; and of those about 20,000 were born in Israel.

In addition, Israel has so far integrated about 350,000 non-Jewish immigrants from the former Soviet Union.

So, why is Israel's handling of the situation being criticised? And with racial tensions and violent attacks against African asylum-seekers on the rise, who is legally responsible for their wellbeing?

Inside Story with presenter Dareen Abughaida discusses these issues with guests: Yigal Palmor, a spokesman for the Israeli foreign ministry; Asaf Weitzen, a legal advisor for asylum-seekers; and Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Israeli newspaper Haaretz.

Jewish immigrants from Africa specifically Ethiopia came to Israel in two major movements.

The first, called "Operation Moses", was the covert removal of 8,000 Ethiopian Jews who had fled to Sudan during a famine in 1984.

In 1991, a second and larger wave of Ethiopian Jews arrived via "Operation Solomon". Days after the Ethiopian government fell, a 36-hour airlift carried more than 14,000 Jews to Israel.

[ttt]

May 30, 2012 3:05:07 GMT -5 summer said:

Can we please please discuss this situation. I know TTT will come in, anyone else?

In the video: "as [reporter and immigrant] talk, a car drives by shouting monkey noises." That's what this is turning into. The video is where you really see how passionate people are about this. People are angry about the African immigrants. I totally get feeling like your country can't absorb a certain level of immigration and taking the steps to curb it, but these and this amount of anger and violent speech is absolutely shocking to me, especially coming from a persecuted people. I simply don't know what to make of this. It's crazy.

But it's not just about absorbing immigration - Israel will absorb twice its size without a second thought if those immigrants are Jewish. It's about non-Jews coming into their country.

Look at the fears of Americans with reports that non-white births are outpacing white births. "We're losing our country!" and "They're taking over and outnumbering us *real* Americans!" It's the same thing, except in Israel, it's official - you have an entire nation founded on the (racist, IMO) principle that only a certain group is allowed to be the majority and in power and that the country exists for the sole benefit of a particular ethnic group. Naturally, allowing immigration of people of a different ethnic group beyond a small number is going to pose a major problem.

[iammalcolmx]

Citing figures from the UN refugee agency the report said out of more than 4,000 asylum applications this year alone, only one was approved.

Geez............

Summer, they are having the exact same issue in Turkey. Previously when I would visit Istanbul I wouldn't see any black people making it painfully obvious I was a tourist. Istanbul was the only place I travel in Europe where people automatically know I am a tourist. During my last visit however I saw some Africans. I am wondering when I am going to visit Istanbul and am mistaken for an East African immigrant as opposed to an American tourist. Since I hardly ever walk around Istanbul alone I may not have that issue. I have told you guys before when visiting the South of France I am given the ultimate side-eye initially because they believe I am North African, however people start smiling after I start speaking English.

[summer]

May 30, 2012 7:38:33 GMT -5 iammalcolmx said:

Citing figures from the UN refugee agency the report said out of more than 4,000 asylum applications this year alone, only one was approved.

Geez............

Summer, they are having the exact same issue in Turkey. Previously when I would visit Istanbul I wouldn't see any black people making it painfully obvious I was a tourist. Istanbul was the only place I travel in Europe where people automatically know I am a tourist. During my last visit however I saw some Africans. I am wondering when I am going to visit Istanbul and am mistaken for an East African immigrant as opposed to an American tourist. Since I hardly ever walk around Istanbul alone I may not have that issue. I have told you guys before when visiting the South of France I am given the ultimate side-eye initially because they believe I am North African, however people start smiling after I start speaking English.

I thought about this, too.

Also, according to the video there seem to be no procedures for most people to be recognized as asylum seekers, so they are just caught in this limbo.

And, I agree with TTT, there is a crystal clear racial element where "these" people aren't supposed to be here. It's obvious in the tone of the people when you hear them speak about immigration.

[chichimi]

God told them to act this way in Exodus 22:21 and Leviticus 19:33.

[iammalcolmx]

May 30, 2012 7:37:22 GMT -5 ttt said:

But it's not just about absorbing immigration - Israel will absorb twice its size without a second thought if those immigrants are Jewish. It's about non-Jews coming into their country.

If this is true then it's a damn shame. I would think Israel would understand the needs of people who have to flee countries which have simply become unsafe for certain people to live in.

[summer]

May 30, 2012 7:57:17 GMT -5 iammalcolmx said:

May 30, 2012 7:37:22 GMT -5 ttt said:

But it's not just about absorbing immigration - Israel will absorb twice its size without a second thought if those immigrants are Jewish. It's about non-Jews coming into their country.

If this is true then it's a damn shame. I would think Israel would understand the needs of people who have to flee countries which have simply become unsafe for certain people to live in.

According to some of the men interviewed in the video, that is true. They absorbed thousands of Ethiopians (I think it was Ethiopians) who were Jewish
with open arms.

But what do we think about the guy who says if they escaped their country through Egypt and then continued on to Israel for a better life, then they are just illegal immigrants, not asylum seekers. Egypt wasn't persecuting them so technically, they should have stayed in Egypt.

[ttt]

May 30, 2012 7:57:17 GMT -5 iammalcolmx said:

May 30, 2012 7:37:22 GMT -5 ttt said:

But it's not just about absorbing immigration - Israel will absorb twice its size without a second thought if those immigrants are Jewish. It's about non-Jews coming into their country.

If this is true then it's a damn shame. I would think Israel would understand the needs of people who have to flee countries which have simply become unsafe for certain people to live in.

You would think, but unfortunately I don't think it usually works that way. Persecuted people don't necessarily become more understanding of other persecuted people, and sometimes they just become *less* understanding (just look at how recent immigrants can be some of the most racist people around towards other immigrants). The whole "never again" thing about the Holocaust generally means "never again to us".

[ttt]

May 30, 2012 8:08:01 GMT -5 @mrdobalina said:

wait, a Jewish homeland is racist? Are we forgetting that Jews were thrown out of just about everywhere else they tried to settle? And then they were murdered en masse? Yeah, a Jewish homeland happened because there was no where else to go and now it's racist? That's rich. And yeah, a Jewish homeland that is open to all Jews is a good thing. Keeps those pesky Jews from getting killed.

How is a nation that exists for the sole and exclusive benefit of a single ethnic group not racist?

[iammalcolmx]

Here we go!!!

[ttt]

May 30, 2012 8:10:56 GMT -5 @mrdobalina said:

May 30, 2012 8:09:31 GMT -5 ttt said:

How is a nation that exists for the sole and exclusive benefit of a single ethnic group not racist?

Because Jewish isn't a race?

You're welcome.

You can't be racist against an ethnic group?

So anti-Semitism isn't racism?

[iammalcolmx]

I was hoping someone would chime in and confirm/deny Israel is leaving these people in limbo because they aren't Jewish. Is this true? If it is true then its messed up regardless of if it's called racism or bigotry. If the US is criticizing however I have to LOL since it's pretty similar to the way the US does things to brown people trying to flee awful circumstances. Where is MX?

[ttt]

May 30, 2012 8:15:54 GMT -5 @mrdobalina said:

May 30, 2012 8:13:13 GMT -5 ttt said:

You can't be racist against an ethnic group?

So anti-Semitism isn't racism?

sigh

no it's bigotry, not racism but that's just semantics now



Israel exists because people were murdering Jews. Jews said "anybody gonna help us?" and nobody did. Then nations felt bad and decided Jews needed their own state.

Israel exists so Jewish people don't get killed. How is that racist?

OK so I'm sorry, the principle of Israel isn't racist, it's bigoted.

Bigotry is OK a long as it's for a good reason, is what you're saying.

[summer]

May 30, 2012 8:24:17 GMT -5 @mrdobalina said:

May 30, 2012 8:22:08 GMT -5 iammalcolmx said:

I was hoping someone would chime in and confirm/deny Israel is leaving these people in limbo because they aren't Jewish. Is this true? If it is true then its messed up regardless of if it's called racism or bigotry. If the US is criticizing however I have to LOL since it's pretty similar to the way the US does things to brown people trying to flee awful circumstances. Where is MX?

I don't know enough about this story. But, yeah, the dilweeds in Israel have done shit like that before.

See, I can think Israel should exist AND think that the racist bullcrap is wrong. Imagine that!

I would love to discuss and understand this issue more as everytime it comes up, it's the same 3 people you see here throwing questions into the abyss. So I really appreciate all sides.

But you sound super angry about even the topic. No one brought up Israel's right to exist. And absolutely I thought it was heinous when other countries historically denied Jewish
people entry based on ethnicity, just as its heinous to use the kind of demonization I heard here about Africans. And there is some irony there.

But no one said all Israelis were racist. There are a lot of Israelis speaking out against this behavior in the video.

Side-eyeing something Israel does doesn't mean we don't see why it's there.

[chichimi]

Im not sure how flameful this is but I think when Israel treats people this way, and acts are done in retaliation, it can be hard to tell what is dont in response to their policy or what is additional bigoted acts against Jews. I have no doubt that Jews have to fear antisemitism but they are also facing hate based on the politics that Israel has been involved in. The victim card doesnt garner as much sympathy.

[iammalcolmx]

Yeah but many other countries behave the exact same way and they don't have nearly the amount of retaliatory acts Israel seems to be on the frequent receiving end of.

[Deleted]

Aren't there a lot of principles of Judiasm that promote segregating themselves from others? I'm not really surprised they are trying to keep out a whole bunch of non-Jews.

[chichimi]

May 30, 2012 9:02:15 GMT -5 @mrdobalina said:

May 30, 2012 8:59:34 GMT -5 @chichimi said:

Im not sure how flameful this is but I think when Israel treats people this way, and acts are done in retaliation, it can be hard to tell what is dont in response to their policy or what is additional bigoted acts against Jews. I have no doubt that Jews have to fear antisemitism but they are also facing hate based on the politics that Israel has been involved in. The victim card doesnt garner as much sympathy.

what acts are you referring to?

I was thinking of some of the retaliatory acts after the violent anti immigration rallies and protests in Tel Aviv. I was not referring to the sexual assaults by Sudanese migrants but I think spreading a meme that the Sudanese migrants are responsible for rapes and crime is going to make this situation worse.

[ringstrue]

Dob: Are you defending Israel's stance to deny non-Jews their civil rights and safety if they are seeking asylum in Israel? Are there any situations where it's ok for Israel to take in others who aren't Jewish? I'm sincerely curious.

Is this just about maintaining Israel as a safe place for Jews or is this in some way tied to the Jewish faith as part of being the chosen people?

[AJL]

***Warning - I am not confident on my comments here. I'm fully prepared to wrong about this.***

I think you have to separate out the religious elements of Judaism and the Zionist intentions of creating Israel in the first place. I don't necessarily think that being the chosen people and God having granted this land to the children of Israel really comes in to play unless it's convenient.

They have a nation built on fear and the need for protection. I'm not surprised at the racist tones of the people in the video. We have that here. I'm not surprised that Israel does not have an immigration policy. I'm bothered that they pick and choose by giving preference to Jews first. I think Israel needs to evolve a bit in that way.

I'm conflicted on the situation. I'm not ever going to say that something like the Holocaust won't happen again, but I think Israel and the Jews who live there as well as in the diaspora could use some reassurance from other powerful nations that if shit goes down, they won't be left holding the bag.

As for the whole "never again" idea, I personally believe Jews have a moral imperative to stop genocide and ethnic/racial/religious killings because of our history and denying asylum because of race and ethnicity is immoral.

[AJL]

May 30, 2012 10:50:11 GMT -5 @mrdobalina said:

But these Africans entered Israel illegally, like the problems on the US border. I don't know what the answer is, but a lot of it is economic immigration. But while these Africans have human rights that Israel must safe guard while they are there, they don't automatically get the same civic rights that Israel grants to citizens.

I'm curious: do you feel the same way with re: to illegal immigrants coming in to the United States?

[dylanite]

Just another template, but I'm anti-Israel (Zionism) as much as I am with Vatican City and Mecca. The world would be a beautiful place without those parasites. Well, just Jerusalem. Not so much Israel as a whole.

[ttt]

I want to clarify that I'm not saying Israel shouldn't exist. I think everyone in Israel should be able to live in safety and in peace. But I'm against the very idea of a nation whose primary principle is "just for us" and that only welcomes a single ethnic group or religion.

[ttt]

But yeah the US has some balls to criticize another country for being hostile to immigrants who aren't of the right ethnic group.

[wrathofkuus]

ALL of Israel, its very existence, is an invasion into someone else's gaadamn country.

Ugh. I really fucking hate Israel.

[ttt]

May 30, 2012 11:55:37 GMT -5 wrathofkuus said:

ALL of Israel, its very existence, is an invasion into someone else's gaadamn country.

Well this is true. But so is the United States. And while in a perfect world, the Palestinians would get their land back, the reality is that Israel isn't going anywhere. So it's pointless to just wish 1948 never happened.

[iammalcolmx]

[iammalcolmx]

I thought Israel belong to the British before the settlements and there were already Jews and Muslims living there?

[wrathofkuus]

May 30, 2012 11:59:39 GMT -5 ttt said:

May 30, 2012 11:55:37 GMT -5 wrathofkuus said:

ALL of Israel, its very existence, is an invasion into someone else's gaadamn country.

Well this is true. But so is the United States. And while in a perfect world, the Palestinians would get their land back, the reality is that Israel isn't going anywhere. So it's pointless to just wish 1948 never happened.

It's less a comment on whether 1948 should have happened, and more a comment on Israel's outrageous flagrant hypocrisy.

[AJL]

May 30, 2012 12:01:10 GMT -5 wrathofkuus said:

It's less a comment on whether 1948 should have happened, and more a comment on Israel's outrageous flagrant hypocrisy.

Please. Really? Israel isn't any more hypocritical than the US. Why should Israel be held to some higher moral standard? Because it's founded by a persecuted people? Meh. Humans will be humans.