Should sellers have to disclose murder/suicides?

[vanillacourage]

news.yahoo.com/pa-homeowner-sues-seller-over-homes-bloody-past-210734556--abc-news-money.html

Basically - woman is suing in Philadelphia because a murder-suicide took place in her home and was not disclosed. 

WDYT, should sellers have to disclose when "disturbing" things happen in the homes they are trying to sell?  If so, will mortgage companies start requiring insurance against such acts, to guard against the home suddenly losing half its value?

[jerseyjaybird]

How on earth would/could a "troubling event" be defined in any kind of universal way?

[CloudBee]

Nope. I think such a mandatory requirement would be terrible.

[CloudBee]

Jan 28, 2013 16:43:04 GMT -5 milsaroo said:

While I would like to know if a death happened, it's not like you get to know about every single event that happened in the home.

People die in homes all the time.  

[anna7602]

I think the onus should be on the potential owner to find out something like that. I googled the heck out of the addresses where we've owned and rented just to find out if the buildings/units were known for anything strange.

[madisen]

Deaths are still a disclosurable event in some states. In CA, deaths that occurred on the property within the last 3 years must be disclosed.

[kwynn]

I'm torn on this. My husband passed of suicide. He was not at home, but I think often about what if he was and how I would feel about that.

People pass in homes all the time, whether it's illness, suicide, murder, and even horrific accidents. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a home where something sad hasn't happened.

[onetruething]

I would like to know, but I probably wouldnt buy a home that had a violent act like that in it. Don't know how you could require it, though.

Maybe she should have googled the address?

[Deleted]

I could see there being a problem if there was an infamous crime there, because you might be annoyed if you bought the house and later found out that people drove by all the time to scope out/take pictures of *that* house. But that could also apply if someone who was famous/infamous had lived there, something had been filmed there, etc. And while it is info I'd want to have in a perfect world, I don't know what kind of law/reg you could draw to address it, or whether it would be fair. And I'd think googling the address could get you a lot of this info anyway.

[Deleted]

I thought you did have to disclose in PA, but maybe it's something determined on a municipal level or maybe I'm just delusional? I seem to remember a murder in a home in Central PA when I was in law school where it was going to have to be disclosed to future purchasers, but my memory could be failing me.

[MrsE]

I think the seller should be required to answer truthfully if a buyer specifically asks about whether or not a death occurred in the house. Or perhaps sign a disclosure stating they do not know about any deaths that occurred in the home. In my ideal world it would be similar to the lead paint disclosure form. If you don't know about it and it hasn't been tested then you simply do not know either way. (Yes, I realize a home cannot be tested per se, but YKWIM). If you ask and the seller does know about it, they should have to inform the buyer.




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[chessie]

I know in my own state there is a set amount of time you have to disclose that information, after which you don't. We actually saw a few houses, someone was either murdered or died in.

[mfluder]

Eh. There are states with laws on this. I don't think it's hard to draft one for deaths not ruled natural. But really, unless someone lied or somehow blocked information I don't really see why someone should be able to sue. Plus, states seem to often have year limits, which make sense. (Say 3 years; though I'm not sure any requirement is necessary....)

[CloudBee]

I think that if the owner were concerned about a famous crime having taken place in the home, it's up to them to Google and research the address on their own. I can't imagine how terrible it would be to try and sell your home after a loved one had commited suicide, and you were unable because there was basically the equivalent a red flag on your listing.

[mbcdefg]

No, I don't think they should be forced to disclose it. Something like that won't hurt a new occupant if they don't know about it. It's not like a structural issue.

Plus, it just places yet another burden on the poor people who might be trying to sell their perfectly good house because of a bad memory.

[Deleted]

Here I believe the law is that if a potential buyer asks and the agent knows it has to be revealed.

[Susie]

I remember reading a case in property in law school that sellers in NY aren't required to disclose that a house is haunted.

[gmail]

My friend rented an apt in the DC metro area, and at the time, we wondered why the rent was SO affordable compared to all the other places.
Turns out she rented the "dead strippers apartment" - but being from another state, she had no idea, until neighbors started talking. She was freaked out, but not enough to move.

[CloudBee]

Jan 28, 2013 16:56:36 GMT -5 Susie said:

I remember reading a case in property in law school that sellers in NY aren't required to disclose that a house is haunted.

That's probably because a haunted house is something someone has belief in vs. a fact. 

ETA:  I am not trying to be snarky.  I just find that law funny, lol.

[Susie]

Jan 28, 2013 17:07:23 GMT -5 CloudBee said:

Jan 28, 2013 16:56:36 GMT -5 Susie said:

I remember reading a case in property in law school that sellers in NY aren't required to disclose that a house is haunted.

That's probably because a haunted house is something someone has belief in vs. a fact. 

ETA:  I am not trying to be snarky.  I just find that law funny, lol.

The house was deemed haunted as a matter of law, based on the seller's efforts to promote interest in it, etc., as being a haunted house.  So for purposes of the decision, it wasn't just a belief.

[drloretta]

No. And I wouldn't have a clue in most of the homes I lived in anyway.

[CloudBee]

Jan 28, 2013 17:10:28 GMT -5 Susie said:

Jan 28, 2013 17:07:23 GMT -5 CloudBee said:

The house was deemed haunted as a matter of law, based on the seller's efforts to promote interest in it, etc., as being a haunted house.  So for purposes of the decision, it wasn't just a belief.

That is crazy.  I can't believe a house can be legally deemed as haunted.  Thanks for sharing.

[mollybrown]

For murders and suicides, I think so. I think people dying of natural causes is completely different. In a major city, I doubt that googling the address would bring up a suicide most of the time. I might still by the house, but I would certainly have some questions about clean up if we're talking about something violent.

[niq]

Jan 28, 2013 16:43:04 GMT -5 milsaroo said:

While I would like to know if a death happened, it's not like you get to know about every single event that happened in the home.

This.

In our state, the disclosure form says in big bold letters that you are strongly advised to walk around the neighborhood, maybe talk to people, etc.

I think someone on this board was trying to buy a house on the cheap where the previous owner was a sex offender. I think as long as you put your stamp on it and make the place "yours", it shouldn't be a problem.

[Velvetshady]

Nope. I can't think of any valid reason the new owner should require to know.

And I think "curiosity" isn't enough of a reason to place an additional burden on the seller. I can't image being the survivor in either situation and having this requirement make it harder to dispose of the place.

And if you believe it should absolutely be required, why not natural deaths? Or accidental deaths that there just wasn't enough evidence to deem it a suicide? Or how about previous rapes? Or domestic abuse? Or even drug use by previous owners? Why just confirmed murders and suicides?

[Deleted]

No, I don't think it should have to be disclosed and I think the woman suing in that article is way over the top. I don't get the big deal. Bad things happen everywhere. 

[madringal]

She bought in June of 2007, my guess is that she is underwater and this is her best chance of getting back what she paid for it!

[jerseyjaybird]

Jan 28, 2013 17:24:13 GMT -5 Velvetshady said:

And if you believe it should absolutely be required, why not natural deaths? Or accidental deaths that there just wasn't enough evidence to deem it a suicide? Or how about previous rapes? Or domestic abuse? Or even drug use by previous owners? Why just confirmed murders and suicides?

This exactly. 

[mlvmd]

There is a house in my county where two separate owners were murdered. I believe after the second there was a petition to change the address (it was a corner lot or something) that would make googling difficult and it's a generic colonial so it wouldn't be recognizable from news clippings necessarily. I would feel badly for an buyer who bought the house without knowing.

[moolarkey]

My dad died at home, my mom died in a hospital just short of 3 years later. My brother bought me out of my share of the house and lived there about 5 years before he sold it.

I don't think you have to disclose in Ohio.

We bought our current home 10 years ago. The realtor told us the guy selling it had bought it after a fire damaged the front and he rebuilt it. He got it really cheap.

We'd wanted to build this model, bought a 32' power boat instead. Severals later this one came on the market and we looked at it but just decided we needed to wait a little longer. Several months later I drove by and it was coming up for auction.

At the auction, where we ended up buying the house, the next door neighbor introduced herself and asked if we were serious about the house. I said yes, very much. She then asked if I knew the story and I said I know it was damaged in a fire. She proceeded to tell me the original owner had tried to murder his pregnant wife. He threw gasoline and a lit candle down on her from the second floor landing as she came in the front door. She was burned but not badly. He was found guilty of 4 charges of attempted to murder - his wife, 2 little kids and the baby she was carrying. He was deported (doctor from China). She left the kids with friends, went back to China and divorced him. I think she was there maybe 2 years or so. She came back and is raising her kids in a suburb NE of us.

We have full basement with 8 foot ceilings for most of the house. The family room is over a crawl space. The floor of the crawl space is about 5' above the floor of the rest of the basement. It has lights and bi-fold shutter like doors. When we moved in H crawled in there because we could tell some crap was in there. We found a bunch of shot up telephone books. It looks like he had used it as a target range. All our neighbors were very surprised to learn that had been going on.

But I am pretty sure the realtor never told us. He told us about the fire but not the attempted murder.