Firefly: Our Mrs. Reynolds

[Wrath0fKuus]

Let me just start out with asking you, how did you like this episode?

[smock]

Shit I haven't watched it yet!

[Wrath0fKuus]

I REMINDED YOU!

[mala]

(popping over from April 2012 for this discussion because I love Firefly and I actually watched this one this week)

This is actually one of my least favorite episodes. I'm not sure why but I just don't find it as interesting. That said, I think in this episode you learn more about the characters on the ship than any other episode. I don't mean facts about their lives, but more about their nature as people. Like, we learn that Mal has a very deep sense of right and wrong, & equality between men and women. We learn that Wash is completely loyal to Zoe, etc. And of course, Inara being totally bad-ass and how she feels about Mal.

I have to say, as I rewatch the series, that I am completely in awe of how much attention to detail there is. I am amazed at how the syntax and accents all play into the show, and how they are so consistent episode to episode. I think it is very commendable that Whedon and his writers were able to keep it this way through the entire series and the movie. It emphases the disparity between those on the outer plants and those in the core.

[Muddled]

Kuus, i was erying to reposnf, but i am too drunk. Later, ok?
We can also test out that fb theory if you like.

[smock]

Okay I'm like 75% through the episode! I promise to watch the last 13 minutes this afternoon!

But WOWZA I'm ready to talk about this episode!

[Muddled]

Mala, I am not sure about you. This is the first episode that has held my attention all the way through.

[smock]

Okay I finally finished the episode.

I liked it a lot and I can't wait to hear Kuus' thoughts on the gender dynamics. I really liked watching how uncomfortable Mal was at Saffron's submissiveness. And the scene with Inara and Saffron was kick-ass.

But why does Mal let her get away with it?

[Wrath0fKuus]

Yes, let's talk about why Mal lets her get away with it!

How much of his encouragement of her to be independent, and his umbrage on Inara's behalf in Shindig, is due to truly thinking that women are equals, and how much is due to a sort of paternalistic sexism?

[smock]

I suppose one interpretation of Mal letting her get away was that he was in some sense proud of her. I mean, he's not really the best example of following the rules, right, so in some sense when he learns that Saffron played him, he was impressed. Apparently she didn't need his lesson about how women should be just as allowed to kill people as men.

On the other hand . . . it just doesn't make a lot of sense, because it's not like she just robbed them or something. She nearly killed everyone on the ship. As much as Mal looks out for himself and his crew first, I have a hard time believing he wouldn't do more to prevent future cons like that.

[Wrath0fKuus]

Do you think he'd have done something else if it were a man who'd almost deliberately gotten them all killed?

[smock]

I'm trying to think if there were men like that in earlier episodes. Well, how about the guy he threw into the engine? And they killed the guys with the net.

But I can't think of anything quite comparable to this, because in some sense she's a lot like Mal: a for-hire middle man who isn't doing the super bad stuff, just facilitating it. Which makes me think he let her go because he respected her.

[smock]

And maybe we can also talk about how all the guys on the ship seemed to be drooling over the submissive wife?

[Wrath0fKuus]

I like your interpretation of this, about it being a genuine respect.

Yes, let's talk about the men (except, curiously, Simon) drooling over the submissive wife.

[smock]

Simon just didn't show up much at all, though, so who knows if he was drooling? I mean, I get it: Christina Hendricks is super hot. But I was grossed out by Jayne, in particular, wanting to trade a gun for a person? And Wash getting goo goo over her bao. *wink wink*

Also, I kept thinking River might do something interesting, and yet again I was disappointed.

[Wrath0fKuus]

I took the absence of Simon more as an indication that he didn't find Saffron to be interesting enough to bother hanging around, but maybe I'm wrong.

I liked the range of male reactions to the submission. You have the very base, Jayne, who is unequivocal about seeing women as stuff, and women who see themselves as stuff and want to be the best stuff possible as the most valuable items a person can have. Then you have Wash, who is clearly attracted to all that obsequiousness possibly because it is such a contrast to his wife; his primary desires being for a strong woman who is at least his equal but even that becoming commonplace as a steady diet. Or maybe it's representative of that small part of him that still keeps cultural indoctrinations, that never does get enlightened no matter how much wisdom he gains.

And then there's Mal, who seems to be equal parts seduced and repulsed by her submissiveness. It was interesting to me that revulsion seemed to win out everywhere except in the bedroom, literally and metaphorically.

[smock]

Well, I mean . . . Christina Hendricks took her top off . . . So . . . no wonder Mal was speechless.

I really hope Saffron comes back! Does she come back?

[Muddled]

I think this episode really said more about the weakness of men than anything else. It played on that men can't control their sexuality bullshit which is incredibly cliche and, unfortunately, fairly entertaining. Yanno, boys will be boys.

[mala]

Part of the appeal of Saffron is her submissiveness, and I think that is why she is fascinating to the male crew. They are so used to women who can hold their own with them that the submissive female is unique. I think it is why I don't like this episode much. I can't stand the sumbissive female archetype.

And Saffron does return, and I love the character when she isn't pretending to be the helpless woman.

[mala]

Feb 20, 2013 11:58:54 GMT -5 smock said:

I'm trying to think if there were men like that in earlier episodes. Well, how about the guy he threw into the engine? And they killed the guys with the net.

But I can't think of anything quite comparable to this, because in some sense she's a lot like Mal: a for-hire middle man who isn't doing the super bad stuff, just facilitating it. Which makes me think he let her go because he respected her.

I think Mal definitely recognizes and respects the player/con artist that is Saffron. If she had permanently injured the crew or ship I don't think he would have let her go.

[alexis]

Feb 20, 2013 17:20:42 GMT -5 mala said:

Feb 20, 2013 11:58:54 GMT -5 smock said:

I'm trying to think if there were men like that in earlier episodes. Well, how about the guy he threw into the engine? And they killed the guys with the net.

But I can't think of anything quite comparable to this, because in some sense she's a lot like Mal: a for-hire middle man who isn't doing the super bad stuff, just facilitating it. Which makes me think he let her go because he respected her.

I think Mal definitely recognizes and respects the player/con artist that is Saffron. If she had permanently injured the crew or ship I don't think he would have let her go.

I think Mal will kill someone without hesitation if they are an immediate threat to him or his crew, but won't otherwise.  Saffron was no longer a threat when he tracked her down.  Similar to how he didn't kill Atherton in Shindig even though Atherton wouldn't have hesitated to kill Mal.  He doesn't have a particular interest in killing people, but doesn't have a problem with it if necessary.  However in tracking her down he wanted her to know that he knew who she was and wouldn't hesitate to kill her if needed.

I though Wash was more enamored with the food than necessarily the submissive attitude.  I imagine being on a spaceship eating their version of MREs, it's probably pretty easy to get enamored with good food.

[Muddled]

Alexis has a good point. The immediate threat was gone by the time Mal and crew caught up to her. I can't think of an example where he has killed when it wasn't self (or ship) defense.

I don't think the writers gave as much thought to the motives of these characters as we are.