:$140k+ to start sounds like a lot of money, until you break it down. Currently, most large corporate firms—where you will find these six-figure starting salaries—require somewhere between 1900-2000 billable hours from their associates. This is not the total number of hours you have to be in the office, this is the total number of hours of actual work you can bill directly to a client. For a smart attorney with a solid work ethic, it typically takes about 10 hours in the office to accrue 7 billable hours; tracked most often in 6 minute or 1/10th of an hour segments. If we take the lower end of the billable requirement threshold (1900 hours), that means a typical attorney has to work about ~2700 real hours in a year to meet their minimum billables. To put that in perspective, 2700 hours is equal to working 7.5 hours a day EVERY SINGLE DAY OF THE YEAR. Using a $140,000 base salary, that’s equivalent to making ~$50/hour [FYI--here’s a short list of other careers that pay $50/hour or more and do not require a) 3 years of post-graduate schooling and $150k in debt or b) you to work 365 days a year to get it].
Meh. First of all, Tucker Max is an idiot. Also, you absolutely don't have to work every day of the year to reach 2000 hours. Also, it is kind of Law Firm 101 to know that 2000 hours a year = 167 hours a month = 8.35 hours each normal work day and that you have to make up for your days off and unproductive days by billing more on another day. If you're decently efficient, that isn't bad at all, assuming that your firm has plenty of work to go around and you don't take excessive amounts of vacation.
I find the times when things are crazy busy and all of a sudden you aren't getting home at a decent hour ever and have to work every weekend and such much more difficult -- but then again, the 250 hour months make up for my 130 hour months so that's a plus.
Really, unless you're working with sadists (which is a whole 'nother issue), are at a firm/in a group with major work distribution issues, or are billing a whole lot more than 1900-2000 hours a year, I don't think biglawyers have much to complain about salary-wise. And if you went to law school with law firm dreams without doing enough research to realize that law firms have billable hour requirements that mean that you have to work way more than 9-5 for your $160,000+ salary, you deserve what's coming to you anyway. I don't think anyone goes into biglaw thinking it is going to be a picnic.
But another part of the article is that very few people even earn that kind of money if one can find a job at all. And its pretty on point that I probably would need to work 2700 hours to actually make my 2000 billables--I neither work that much nor make my billables, nor do I earn 6 figures. So its depressing all around for me.
I sat next to someone on a plane who was reading his book. She was laughing so hard the entire flight that I couldn't help but buy the book, even though I knew nothing about its subject matter. Total waste of time and money.
But another part of the article is that very few people even earn that kind of money if one can find a job at all.
I like that in 2013, he thinks that Skadden lawyers start at $140,000. That says something about his data.
I started law school in 2001, when the economy was good, and even back then it was abundantly clear if you did any research about law schools that very few students who didn't go to top 14 schools could count on making $125,000 (that's what it the NY market salary was back then) to start. That always was the case. Things are of course worse now, but people who ever thought that a lot of lawyers get biglaw jobs probably didn't do his/her research.
I think it depends on why you want to go to law school right? If you just want to make a lot of money and don't know what else to do with your BA, then yeah it makes more sense to seek out another field such as finance. But if you actually want to be a lawyer and find the practice of law interesting...you kind of need the degree right?
Meh. First of all, Tucker Max is an idiot. Also, you absolutely don't have to work every day of the year to reach 2000 hours. Also, it is kind of Law Firm 101 to know that 2000 hours a year = 167 hours a month = 8.35 hours each normal work day and that you have to make up for your days off and unproductive days by billing more on another day. If you're decently efficient, that isn't bad at all, assuming that your firm has plenty of work to go around and you don't take excessive amounts of vacation.
I find the times when things are crazy busy and all of a sudden you aren't getting home at a decent hour ever and have to work every weekend and such much more difficult -- but then again, the 250 hour months make up for my 130 hour months so that's a plus.
Really, unless you're working with sadists (which is a whole 'nother issue), are at a firm/in a group with major work distribution issues, or are billing a whole lot more than 1900-2000 hours a year, I don't think biglawyers have much to complain about salary-wise. And if you went to law school with law firm dreams without doing enough research to realize that law firms have billable hour requirements that mean that you have to work way more than 9-5 for your $160,000+ salary, you deserve what's coming to you anyway. I don't think anyone goes into biglaw thinking it is going to be a picnic.
:Y: It's really not that hard to reach 2000 hours in a year. The people I know in BigLaw, where they can find as much work as they want, who think it's impossible are people who underbill themselves, don't keep track of what they do all day very well, and/or (rarely, but it happens) occassionally get screwed by partners who pressure them to underbill their work.
I think people who think making 2000 hours a year is easy live in another world. sorry.
Maybe I fuck around too much on here, but I still work hard, and long hours, and I can't hit 2000.
And maybe I have less motivation because of my crappy salary, but I really side eye the comment that its not that hard. It is. sorry. Add on a few hours a day in a car, and a kid, and its REALLY hard.
I think it's a well written article because it does a nice job of debunking myths. I agree that big law associates are paid very well, but I wouldn't call his analysis there dumb or wrong, but perhaps just slightly hyperbolic but not more so than anything else in the piece. I doesn't take me anywhere close to 10 hours to bill 7.5, but it probably would have when I was first starting out and learning the ropes, or worked for dicks, so I don't find that an insane statement. I do wish he spent more time talking about wages or non- big law people, but all and all, a decent article.
I like my job, but I did what people should do before law school -- I worked as a paralegal (and worked for several years in a field unrelated to law) so I knew exactly what I was getting myself into, and what I was giving up.
Billing often does not reflect hours actually worked.
It *should* though. It won't reflect time fucking around on GBCN or getting a lunchtime manicure or planning your next vacation at your desk or whatever, but it will reflect the time you were sitting at your desk actually working on things for clients.
If, as a lawyer, you are not billing to reflect the hours you are actually working on your cases, you are doing something wrong.
$50/hr is still a lot of money. More than most people with post-grad degrees earn.
Agreed. I don't earn anywhere near $50/hr for hours worked.
People are missing the point of why i posted this, I apparently pulled the wrong damn excerpt.
This should definitely be from the perspective of, like, @angryharpy's old position. Earning a completely average salary with insane billing requirements.
When I was in consulting I think I maintained a utilization rate of about 85-90% and billed about 2,100 hours per year. I worked a lot less hours than most of the attorneys I know.
Billing often does not reflect hours actually worked.
It *should* though. It won't reflect time fucking around on GBCN or getting a lunchtime manicure or planning your next vacation at your desk or whatever, but it will reflect the time you were sitting at your desk actually working on things for clients.
If, as a lawyer, you are not billing to reflect the hours you are actually working on your cases, you are doing something wrong.
But, thats not necessarily true. I can't bill for going to get a file from the filing cabinet, or talking to my assistant about which mail service to send a letter, etc etc. There are a lot of non-billable events during the day.
You can make a lot of money (at least compared to the average person who makes between maybe 30k and 90k?) if you have a law degree. I didn't go to a top school or work for a top firm, I went to a state school, had a less expensive education, work in house at a large global company and make 200k with 8 hour work days and a wonderful quality of life. ALL my friends from law school are making over 150k, and in my book, that's pretty good. Especially in light of the recent threads about how normal people make 45k or whatever it is. Chances are, if you go to law school, you will make more money than you would have if you didn't. Not everyone has to deal with billable hours. The law school bashing makes no sense to me.
you live in a bubble.
I went to a T2 law school and I can count on one hand my friends who earn over 150K. My experience is the norm, not you, if you've paid attention at all to the legal market in the past 10 years.
Post by runblondie26 on Feb 19, 2013 10:51:13 GMT -5
Well, I take that whole list with a huge grain of salt. Some of the figures are cetainly inflated.
#15 is funny.
15. Co-pilot
What they do: A co-pilot serves as one part of the two-part team that makes up an airplane cockpit crew. In-flight duties are usually shared between the more experienced pilot, also called the captain, and the less experienced co-pilot, also referred to as the first officer.
Education: High school diploma, pilot's license.
Average hourly earnings: $52.45
They fail to mention that obtaining pilot's license and required experience will run you about 80-100k in training costs. Most major airlines require at least a bachelors degree to even apply, so you need that too.
By law, you can only have 100 "billable hours" per month as a pilot. That means main cabin door is closed and the plane is backed away from the gate. You're not getting paid for the rest of the time you are away, which is well over 100 hours a month. Only senior pilots can get that many extra hours, as they are coveted. Average is about 75.
Also most importantly, that's the starting hourly for a co-pilot at Delta or Southwest, which is basically akin to a pitcher making it to the starting line-up of the yankees after years in the minors.
I went to a T2 law school and I can count on one hand my friends who earn over 150K. My experience is the norm, not you, if you've paid attention at all to the legal market in the past 10 years.
Maybe. I'm in an east coast city with lots of people with jobs like mine making money like me, so it's a bubble with a lot of people in it. Around here, it is not out of the ordinary to have in house lawyers at big companies making decent money and working decent hours. Where do you live?
It *should* though. It won't reflect time fucking around on GBCN or getting a lunchtime manicure or planning your next vacation at your desk or whatever, but it will reflect the time you were sitting at your desk actually working on things for clients.
If, as a lawyer, you are not billing to reflect the hours you are actually working on your cases, you are doing something wrong.
But, thats not necessarily true. I can't bill for going to get a file from the filing cabinet, or talking to my assistant about which mail service to send a letter, etc etc. There are a lot of non-billable events during the day.
These are 15 second to 2 minute events where you are still serving clients. You wrap that time into other related billable entries.
You can make a lot of money (at least compared to the average person who makes between maybe 30k and 90k?) if you have a law degree. I didn't go to a top school or work for a top firm, I went to a state school, had a less expensive education, work in house at a large global company and make 200k with 8 hour work days and a wonderful quality of life. ALL my friends from law school are making over 150k, and in my book, that's pretty good. Especially in light of the recent threads about how normal people make 45k or whatever it is. Chances are, if you go to law school, you will make more money than you would have if you didn't. Not everyone has to deal with billable hours. The law school bashing makes no sense to me.
I'm curious how long you have been out of law school. My H is a lawyer and so are all of his friends, he went to a top 30 school and has been out for 5 years and I can think of one of his friends that even makes 6 figures, much less 150K and this is a friend from college who went to a top 14 school. So they haven't been practicing very long, but there is no way in hell they will all be making 150k in ten, or even 20 years. Almost all of them regret law school.
But, thats not necessarily true. I can't bill for going to get a file from the filing cabinet, or talking to my assistant about which mail service to send a letter, etc etc. There are a lot of non-billable events during the day.
These are 15 second to 2 minute events where you are still serving clients. You wrap that time into other related billable entries.
Yup! You certainly don't put that into your diary entries, but talking to your secretary about mailing something is part of "editing, finalizing, and serving" something.
These are 15 second to 2 minute events where you are still serving clients. You wrap that time into other related billable entries.
Yup! You certainly don't put that into your diary entries, but talking to your secretary about mailing something is part of "editing, finalizing, and serving" something.
Or my favorite..."Attending to...." blah blah blah!!!
I also have a hard time feeling sorry for people with student loans.
Oh give me a fucking break.
I was talking to H about this yesterday. I feel like we are being punished for doing the "right" thing. Banks are making money hand over fist on my federal student loans, with their 6.32% interest rate. ON A VIRTUALLY RISK-FREE INVESTMENT! Meanwhile, people are getting mortgages at 3% AND get to write that interest off on their taxes. I get to write off a measly $2500 of my student loan interest. But I can't afford to get a damn mortgage because of said student loans. And last I checked, it wasn't the student loan crisis that sent the economy into a downard spiral. Had I graduated a year earlier and been able to consolidate my loans then, they would be multiple percentage points lower. I did what I was "supposed" to do - I went to a good professional school, I worked hard, I didn't buy a house I couldn't afford, and I pay more in both loan interest and taxes than someone doing the exact same job as me who happened to have been born 2 years earlier. Forgive me if I think people in this situation deserve a little sympathy from time to time.
As for the article, I think it has a lot of good points. Whether billing 2,000 hours is hard can depend on so many factors - the type of work you have, the amount of work you have, what kind of support system you have to take care of your non-work responsibilities. I made such crap money for such pathetic pay at my firm. If I had only had to work the hours I billed, I would have been grossing $30/hour. And honestly, while the article may talk in the context of BigLaw, knowing that the majority of people don't make that kind of money DOES make it really depressing.
I was talking to H about this yesterday. I feel like we are being punished for doing the "right" thing. Banks are making money hand over fist on my federal student loans, with their 6.32% interest rate. ON A VIRTUALLY RISK-FREE INVESTMENT! Meanwhile, people are getting mortgages at 3% AND get to write that interest off on their taxes. I get to write off a measly $2500 of my student loan interest. But I can't afford to get a damn mortgage because of said student loans. And last I checked, it wasn't the student loan crisis that sent the economy into a downard spiral. Had I graduated a year earlier and been able to consolidate my loans then, they would be multiple percentage points lower. I did what I was "supposed" to do - I went to a good professional school, I worked hard, I didn't buy a house I couldn't afford, and I pay more in both loan interest and taxes than someone doing the exact same job as me who happened to have been born 2 years earlier. Forgive me if I think people in this situation deserve a little sympathy from time to time.
I would just like to give you a standing ovation for this. (high5)
I just get really angry at the implication that it's somehow my fault that the cost of education has skyrocketed, that the government sets student loan rates absurdly high, and that my loans were then a burden after the Baby Boomers and Gen Xers fucked the economy while my generation was still in school.
I also have a hard time feeling sorry for people with student loans.
Oh give me a fucking break.
I was talking to H about this yesterday. I feel like we are being punished for doing the "right" thing. Banks are making money hand over fist on my federal student loans, with their 6.32% interest rate. ON A VIRTUALLY RISK-FREE INVESTMENT! Meanwhile, people are getting mortgages at 3% AND get to write that interest off on their taxes. I get to write off a measly $2500 of my student loan interest. But I can't afford to get a damn mortgage because of said student loans. And last I checked, it wasn't the student loan crisis that sent the economy into a downard spiral. Had I graduated a year earlier and been able to consolidate my loans then, they would be multiple percentage points lower. I did what I was "supposed" to do - I went to a good professional school, I worked hard, I didn't buy a house I couldn't afford, and I pay more in both loan interest and taxes than someone doing the exact same job as me who happened to have been born 2 years earlier. Forgive me if I think people in this situation deserve a little sympathy from time to time.
As for the article, I think it has a lot of good points. Whether billing 2,000 hours is hard can depend on so many factors - the type of work you have, the amount of work you have, what kind of support system you have to take care of your non-work responsibilities. I made such crap money for such pathetic pay at my firm. If I had only had to work the hours I billed, I would have been grossing $30/hour. And honestly, while the article may talk in the context of BigLaw, knowing that the majority of people don't make that kind of money DOES make it really depressing.
Nah, no fucking break.
Of course it sucks. Lots of things in life suck. You still made the choice to take out the student loans.
I'm not saying you didn't work hard, or you did everything wrong, or that you never ever deserve any sympathy, I'm saying I'm not going to cry anyone a river over the choice they made.