Crying a river, feeling sorry for someone, they're really not all that different. I won't be doing either.
Student loans are a gamble. They always have been and they always will be. At no point in history was it wise to say "hey, I'll take out $100k and keep my fingers crossed that I actually obtain a job to pay these suckers off." You could have a life altering event and never graduate, you could completely not make the cut for the job, there are a lot of factors that could make it very difficult to pay off $100k in loans.
People choose to take the gamble and they have to deal with the outcome.
I'm not saying the system isn't fucked up, because it certainly is, but lots of things are fucked up in this country. That doesn't negate the fact that you jumped on the bandwagon and did it anyway.
Are you not the poster that dropped out of high school? I have a hard time listening to anything you have to say related to education.
Yeah, don't worry, I have a hard time listening to anything you say about relationships or birth control.
(I like how you assume that because I dropped out of high school I don't care about education though, that's nice.)
Bringing this back to the OP: does anyone really take issue with the ultimate premise of the piece, though? That when you break it down hourly, for most people, going to law school in this day and age is probably not the wisest financial move? So he's using flawed BigLaw numbers. And his understanding of pilot pay is off. But most people don't work in BigLaw, and I don't think that many potential lawyers are going to be looking to a career in aviation. Still, at the end of the day, isn't his point that the hourly wage of lawyers is no better than a whole bunch of other careers? It just also comes with a heaping dose of debt and stress, plus the risk that you'll actually make LESS than those careers.
Can we make some kind of correlation between people who take out student loans, what's in their grocery cart and whether they handmake their kids' Halloween costumes or not and make this the one-upping/pissing-match MM post of all time?
Anyway... Law school was definitely the default option for a lot of my friends when I graduated college and I now know a hell of a lot of disgruntled lawyers as a result. When I was in grade school and HS, there was this notion that if you're smart and good with words but maybe not into math and science, then law was the obvious career choice for you. I certainly hope that has changed.
I know a lot of disgruntled architects and college professors as well, but at least the professors got most of their graduate schooling funded.
This is an interesting suggestion. Didn't BrideEmily make like $70k 5 years ago as a legal secretary?
she is a paralegal, not a secretary.
I don't recall her earning that much, but the paralegals in my firm do not.
paralegal chiming in .... paralegals make decent money - certainly not attorney money, but its entirely dependant on where you are geographically, the type of law you do (litigation pays the least, IP pays the MOST !!) and the size of the law firm. i've been doing this for 10 years and my base is $65K (this is billing 1650 hrs/yr) for a small to mid size firm just north of SF (Marin - VHCOL) doing litigation. Sure paralegals in SF proper make more but i also know that paralegals outside of SF/Silicon Valley make far less than i do.
I don't recall her earning that much, but the paralegals in my firm do not.
paralegal chiming in .... paralegals make decent money - certainly not attorney money, but its entirely dependant on where you are geographically, the type of law you do (litigation pays the least, IP pays the MOST !!) and the size of the law firm. i've been doing this for 10 years and my base is $65K (this is billing 1650 hrs/yr) for a small to mid size firm just north of SF (Marin - VHCOL) doing litigation. Sure paralegals in SF proper make more but i also know that paralegals outside of SF/Silicon Valley make far less than i do.
I was definitely saying legal secretary while meaning paralegal.
I am sorry. That was a stupid and insensitive thing for me to say. That said, I don't run around giving advice on birth control. I admit that I suck at it.
There are MANY things that people seem to think it is fine to have an opinion on even though they have absolutely no experience with them. I am not sure how student loans are any different. I was afforded the luxury to not have any but that doesn't mean that I don't think that they are a necessary, and in a lot of cases, excellent option for others. It just seems ridiculous to act as though they are purely a gamble.
Yeah, my profession sucks too & but pays significantly less. I just looked at the cost of my grad school now & it makes me want to throw up. It's a top public university & their estimate is $66k per year (out of state which I was). So that's $134k IF you have an undergrad in the field. If not then its3-yrs so almost $200k. There is no way to have any kind of real job while in school either. All to come out making $40k if you are lucky. Feeling super lucky I came out with $35k in loans (thanks to scholarships). My life would be totally different if I graduated nor vs. 10yrs ago.
Actually, I'd be surprised if cosmos could get a paralegal job (and that wouldn't eliminate billables anyway). @septimus can speak more to this, but few places want to hire a J.D. as a paralegal because they assume you'll leave for greener pastures as soon as you find something else.
I sat next to someone on a plane who was reading his book. She was laughing so hard the entire flight that I couldn't help but buy the book, even though I knew nothing about its subject matter. Total waste of time and money.
He is an idiot. And a slimy idiot at that. But he has a great talent for telling "drunk stories". Listening to his books on tape is better. I found myself laughing so hard I had to pull my car over sot hat I wouldn't wreck.
Actually, I'd be surprised if cosmos could get a paralegal job (and that wouldn't eliminate billables anyway). @septimus can speak more to this, but few places want to hire a J.D. as a paralegal because they assume you'll leave for greener pastures as soon as you find something else.
She almost wouldn't be able to get a paralegal job. Attorneys make crappy paralegals
I work in the legal department of a corporation. I'm pretty sure the attorneys I work with make well into the 6 figures, don't have billables, and work manageable hours (9-6 to 7). Maybe something like that should be the goal of those who want to move beyond a world of billables.
I can't think of a career I'd want to do less than being a legal secretary, other than being any other kind of secretary, or a teacher, or a garbage man.
Requires a completely different skill set. There are thousands of careers that don't require billables, why would I jump to this one?
And again, not to be offensive, but I didn't go into 140K of SL debt to earn $30K a year.
It sounds like you find the idea kind of disgusting, sorry.
It was just a suggestion. I was thinking of LHC or the paralegal route like BrideEm because you are knowledgeable of the field. (So, unlike a garbage man.)
The paralegal I know in Denver makes $75k and we are MCOL, unlike your area.
I am sure they require different skill sets, but they are in the area of law, and you wouldn't have billables, etc.
If it's ridiculous, it's ridiculous, sorry. I have heard of people in this positions decide to transition to law school, so I didn't think it was nuts that you might try to do the reverse for less stress.
paralegals have their own kinds of stress ... like attorneys they have billables to meet (1650/yr for me), their main job is to keep attorneys organized and be the information hunters/gathers/summarizers.
Oh man, Redbellpeppers is going to be pleasantly surprised at the turn this thread took when she gets back...girl fight! lol.
And if we're playing the who has it worse card, I'll contribute!
I'm pretty sure medical residents make the lowest hourly wage lol. I'm too lazy to try and google, but working 80+ hours for about 45k when you have $200,000 in student loans might win this who has it worse competition
Okay, yeah, I think med. residents do win.
Other random thoughts about the topics at hand...
Tucker Max is a douche, but he owns it at least.
The student loan industry is FUBAR. DH graduated 4 years before me and has interest rates of 1.25%, I have interest rates of 6.8%...WTF, interest rates are at historic lows, but SL's are immune! Also, the whole fight over interest rates in congress last year only addressed subsidized loans...unsubsidized loans can suck it. No one cares to discuss the loans that borrowers are on the hook for accrued interest.
Also, I think it is silly to suggest that if you can't afford college without loans, you just shouldn't go. It is well documented that education is the key to upper mobility, to say people who can't afford it should just forget it is only going to increase the great wage divide. Yes, there are jobs that pay well enough with only a HS diploma, but they are often physical jobs which means they will only be able to be done for a short time. If you want to include trade jobs (which you still need $$$ to attend trade programs) then that opens more options, but you now have the potential of student loans.
I work in the legal department of a corporation. I'm pretty sure the attorneys I work with make well into the 6 figures, don't have billables, and work manageable hours (9-6 to 7). Maybe something like that should be the goal of those who want to move beyond a world of billables.
Us litigators refer to that environment as "Mecca." Lol.
BTW, I am an attorney in a small firm (aka, not earning a big law salary) with a high billing goal. I work hard. Do I feel like I could make more money? Sure, but I am sure there are plenty of others who work harder for less. This situation is not unique to lawyers.
I was going to bring this up...hours worked does not equal billable hours in a lot of professions. MH works a hell of a lot harder than I do, and yeah, his current hourly wage rate is something like $32/hour, but he only gets paid for flight hours. So all that time sitting at the airport, not getting paid. Flight is delayed, not getting paid. Land and set the parking break, payment stops, but not the work since the airplane has to be shut down. After taking in all of that, his wage is less than what I make, and that isn't even considering the time he spends constantly studying to maintain his licenses/employment and updating manuals that he is required to have. And all of that wouldn't even be so bad if it weren't for the student loans he has to enable him to get his licenses. And he was a lucky one, he got free tuition, so he only paid for actual flying. Many of his classmates have over 100k in debt and make the same as him Last year, he made $27,500...and probably worked/was away from home as many hours as a lot of attorneys too. So meh...
The only reason I clicked on the link was to see if it was one of the listed professions. I knew it would be, just knew it. So misleading.
I can't speak for Chloe77, but I think her point was just that not all lawyers are in this position. I fully acknowledge that I've been very fortunate, but I am one of them. I don't love my job everyday, but I'm doing alright and probably better than a lot of people in my city and circle of friends.
I don't make $150k and I am not sure if I will stay around long enough to ever hit that mark. But, the upside of my personal situation, is that I don't have to. I have been practicing for 5 years. I went to a state school and graduated with manageable loans. I work for a small firm in a low to MCOL area. I typically bill between 1700-1800 hours per year. I usually work 9-10 hour days in the office when I'm not traveling, another hour or so at home, a few hours on weekends, and I take several weeks of vacation each year. I made almost exactly $100k last year. My quality of life is pretty good. I don't think I would trade this for BigLaw hours or money at this point in my career.
But this actually kind of PROVES his point that law school is not some amazing financial move.
Based on your description, you work about 55 hours per week. Assuming 3 weeks of vacation, that is 2695 hours per year. With a salary of $100,000, that comes out to a little over $37 per hour.
Now, if you enjoy your job and you think you're fairly compensated, then great.
But the fact is that you could probably have done something else that would have eventually earned you $37 per hour for 55 hours per week. When you break it down, your hourly wage simply isn't all that fantastic. And that's what he's getting at - people go to law school with a misguided notion - largely perpetuated by the law schools, of course - that they're going to make GREAT money. In reality, I think a situation like yours in which they make $37/hour and don't hate their lives is probably one of the best case scenarios.
And sorry for the excessive quoting, but every time I try to cut it down, it gets all messed up.
Sorry if the quotes make this really long...
I don't necessarily disagree with the premise that it is a lot of hours for potentially not the best hourly rate. But (and I HATE to do this, lol), for my own personal situation, I have to consider where I live. I live in a poor city that has been economically depressed for some time. There are not a lot of jobs here that pay $37 hour. And there are not a lot of jobs that are hourly, period. Most everyone I know is salaried and works more than 40 hours per week. I am not particularly confident that I'd be able to find a job that I could walk out the door at 5:00 every day that pays what I make. My husband has been out of school for 10 years and just last year cracked the $40k mark. He routinely puts in hours at night and on weekends. Given something like that as my alternative, I would rather work a few more hours for more than double his pay. There are a lot of areas of the country where people without professional or graduate degrees will never make $37/hour and I happen to choose to live in one. Does it suck sometimes? Sure. But I am way better off than a lot of the lawyers posting in this thread and I am way, way, way better off than most of the people in my area.
I'm not trying to say that my life is so amazing and I owe it all to law school, but the reality is that I am mostly on the opposite end of the spectrum from what is usually posted in these threads. I'm 5 years into practicing, I have $30k in loans left to pay and I don't hate my job. Since graduation, I have been able to save a 20% down payment on a nice house, buy and pay off a new car, and take a nice vacation every year, whilst simultaneously saving for retirement and supporting another family member during a rough time. I am very confident that I would not be in this position had I not gone to law school. That's all.
Listen, none of this would be an issue if companies would stop treating the bachelor's degree as the new high school diploma. You used to get a BA when you were on a management or leadership track, or in a highly specialized field. Now? You need a fucking BA to be an admin assistant. And I know this, because when I was looking for work after I got laid off in 2010 80% of the admin positions I looked at required a BA AND 3+ years of experience. Not for an executive admin, not for a paralegal. Just for a regular admin. YOU DO NOT NEED A BACHELOR'S DEGREE TO BE A DAMN ADMINISTRATIVE ASSISTANT.
Yep. They need to find a way to delay the age people are entering the workforce, since people are living longer & retiring later, creating fewer openings at the bottom. Unfortunately, keeping people in school for many years beyond HS has become the standard way to accomplish this. It's a very expensive method.
I don't have any other suggestions, though. Keep kids in high school til they're 25?
Bringing this back to the OP: does anyone really take issue with the ultimate premise of the piece, though? That when you break it down hourly, for most people, going to law school in this day and age is probably not the wisest financial move? So he's using flawed BigLaw numbers. And his understanding of pilot pay is off. But most people don't work in BigLaw, and I don't think that many potential lawyers are going to be looking to a career in aviation. Still, at the end of the day, isn't his point that the hourly wage of lawyers is no better than a whole bunch of other careers? It just also comes with a heaping dose of debt and stress, plus the risk that you'll actually make LESS than those careers.
I mean, sure. That's great information for anyone who was born yesterday or has never heard much about this whole lawyering thing. But the fact that most lawyers -- and certainly a vast majority of those who didn't go to top 14 schools -- work very hard for anywhere near biglaw dollars was certainly readily available when I was applying to law school (in a good economy). So I don't see how any of that is groundbreaking?
And once you adjust to actually realistic numbers for biglaw, with first years making closer to $200,000 when you adjust to today's salary and add in a bonus, and working way less than 2700 hours to bill 2000, it sounds like a good salary to me!
Listen, none of this would be an issue if companies would stop treating the bachelor's degree as the new high school diploma. You used to get a BA when you were on a management or leadership track, or in a highly specialized field. Now? You need a fucking BA to be an admin assistant. And I know this, because when I was looking for work after I got laid off in 2010 80% of the admin positions I looked at required a BA AND 3+ years of experience. Not for an executive admin, not for a paralegal. Just for a regular admin. YOU DO NOT NEED A BACHELOR'S DEGREE TO BE A DAMN ADMINISTRATIVE ASSISTANT.
Yep. They need to find a way to delay the age people are entering the workforce, since people are living longer & retiring later, creating fewer openings at the bottom. Unfortunately, keeping people in school for many years beyond HS has become the standard way to accomplish this. It's a very expensive method.
I don't have any other suggestions, though. Keep kids in high school til they're 25?
Idea brought to you by my West Wing Marathon - The U.S. govt should provide college funding for anyone who completes a stint in the military or a equal length service stint. This would delay people entering school for three-ish years, meaning if someone does the usual 4 year education, they are now 25. Plus, they are more rounded and have real world experience and all that jazz and no student loans! Yeah!
People going to college need to get their heads out of their asses and realize shit is different now. They need to understand that taking on loans means you'll have to pay them back. They need to understand the economy is crap and jobs are hard to come by and you're not going to make $400k a year right out of college. Who is ultimately responsible for making the decision to go to undergrad + law school/med school/etc -- the person going.
Not to say it doesn't suck, but it's not like this is only known to a select few people.
Listen, none of this would be an issue if companies would stop treating the bachelor's degree as the new high school diploma. You used to get a BA when you were on a management or leadership track, or in a highly specialized field. Now? You need a fucking BA to be an admin assistant. And I know this, because when I was looking for work after I got laid off in 2010 80% of the admin positions I looked at required a BA AND 3+ years of experience. Not for an executive admin, not for a paralegal. Just for a regular admin. YOU DO NOT NEED A BACHELOR'S DEGREE TO BE A DAMN ADMINISTRATIVE ASSISTANT.
Yep. They need to find a way to delay the age people are entering the workforce, since people are living longer & retiring later, creating fewer openings at the bottom. Unfortunately, keeping people in school for many years beyond HS has become the standard way to accomplish this. It's a very expensive method.
I don't have any other suggestions, though. Keep kids in high school til they're 25?
While we're all bitching, can I add the ridiculousness of expecting undergrads to take unpaid internships as a way to get experience? This is wrong on so many levels. Not only are you taking out a bunch of loans for your undergrad education, then you're doubly screwed because the job you get in the summers to pay for things like rent and food counts against you if it's not related to your field. I oversaw a non-profit internship program and most of the kids, unsurprisingly, who could afford to be in a HCOL city for a summer with zero salary were not the kids who were already taking out a ton of loans to go to college.
So now it's you won't cry a river? The original post was that you won't feel sorry for anyone with student loans.
I'm not asking anyone to cry me a river. Hell, I'm doing pretty OK. Doesn't mean the situation doesn't still piss me off.
I feel a TON of sympathy for people who graduated recently and who are struggling to get by because the cost of education hasn't kept up with starting wages. I can't even imagine what it was like to start college in 2006, 2007, 2008, and then graduate into the shithole that was the economy 4 years later.
It sucked. Hard.
Even just a few years later, little punks are graduating now and making almost what I did after working for 3 years. I'm just glad I didn't go to law or grad school. My best friend went to grad school right after we graduated in 2009. With her masters completed, her loans are to the tune of $1,500/month.
Bringing this back to the OP: does anyone really take issue with the ultimate premise of the piece, though? That when you break it down hourly, for most people, going to law school in this day and age is probably not the wisest financial move? So he's using flawed BigLaw numbers. And his understanding of pilot pay is off. But most people don't work in BigLaw, and I don't think that many potential lawyers are going to be looking to a career in aviation. Still, at the end of the day, isn't his point that the hourly wage of lawyers is no better than a whole bunch of other careers? It just also comes with a heaping dose of debt and stress, plus the risk that you'll actually make LESS than those careers.
Are there people who genuinely like working in BigLaw? Like the challenge/pressure/cases, etc.? Or is it really all about the money? It seems like V enjoys her job...
Bringing this back to the OP: does anyone really take issue with the ultimate premise of the piece, though? That when you break it down hourly, for most people, going to law school in this day and age is probably not the wisest financial move? So he's using flawed BigLaw numbers. And his understanding of pilot pay is off. But most people don't work in BigLaw, and I don't think that many potential lawyers are going to be looking to a career in aviation. Still, at the end of the day, isn't his point that the hourly wage of lawyers is no better than a whole bunch of other careers? It just also comes with a heaping dose of debt and stress, plus the risk that you'll actually make LESS than those careers.
Are there people who like working in BigLaw? Like the challenge/pressure/cases, etc.? It seems like V enjoys her job...
I'll be one of the people that answers for their DH/SO/cat sitter/best friend's neighbor's uncle. Boyfriend really enjoys his job. He says he loves being surrounded by smart people in a challenging environment. He knew what he was getting into with the hours and workload and I think he manages it pretty well. The compensation is great, too. If the baby were not on the way I don't think he would be so eager to look for an in-house position.
Yep. They need to find a way to delay the age people are entering the workforce, since people are living longer & retiring later, creating fewer openings at the bottom. Unfortunately, keeping people in school for many years beyond HS has become the standard way to accomplish this. It's a very expensive method.
I don't have any other suggestions, though. Keep kids in high school til they're 25?
Just don't require a BA degree. Hell, there are jobs out there that don't even care what degree you have just as long as you have a BA. Why? What does it prove?
Oh, I completely agree with you. I went off on a tangent not completely related to your specific point. I think the degree requirement came about as a new standard to keep people from entering the workforce at 18, since there aren't enough jobs.
I'm pretty sure medical residents make the lowest hourly wage lol. I'm too lazy to try and google, but working 80+ hours for about 45k when you have $200,000 in student loans might win this who has it worse competition
Sounds about right. SIL is starting her residency in June and her SLs will take up pretty much her whole salary.
Are there people who genuinely like working in BigLaw? Like the challenge/pressure/cases, etc.? Or is it really all about the money? It seems like V enjoys her job...
Well, let's not get crazy here I do generally like the idea of practicing law (though really, it is mostly just an office job in many ways and on many days the tasks I'm doing are pretty mind-numbing), and the cost/benefit analysis of my job (salary vs. hours and people I'm dealing with) is favorable enough for me. I do dream of the in-house job though... sigh...