Post by snipsnsnails on Feb 26, 2013 10:34:28 GMT -5
That thread turned into a mess as all good ML threads do, but it did make me think. Do you think we'd be better served if the application of masculine and feminine didn't come with such burdensome connotation? Someone said it's insulting to refer to a man's shape as feminine and several people indicated calling a woman's shape masculine is insulting.
I guess I never thought of this as insulting or detracting from someone's essence as a man or woman. A woman's body can be masculine. Something perhaps typical of a man, but certainly not unique to a man, as evidenced by the awesomeness of Pink and her dedication. And a man can be feminine in his physique. I dated a particularly hot man who could only be described as feminine in his build and he made me swoon on the daily. Do you find these things insulting on the outset? Or only when presented in a jerky way?
Post by snipsnsnails on Feb 26, 2013 10:38:08 GMT -5
Some people seemed to indicate that they would never like to refer to a woman as masculine, so it led me to believe that maybe they thought it to be insulting from the outset, regardless of presentation. Of course, it's hard to tell with the jabs that the OP threw in about no straight man finding that attractive (a particularly insulting thought).
Post by snipsnsnails on Feb 26, 2013 10:40:02 GMT -5
Oh, I definitely told him his build was feminine and he had a lot of characteristics that might be thought typical of a woman, as well, which I was attracted to and told him about. He also had things that were particularly masculine about him.
I guess I see people more as a composite of things that can be both masculine or feminine and this is a good thing, in my mind.
i think there is something inherently offensive in describing a person in terms of their natural opposite. it pretty clearly denotes that something is wrong.
This.
Frankly, that would have been a non-thread if OP had said, "wow, she's in shape" and left it at that.
of course we are all aware that there are things that are thought of as "masculine" (square jaw, say) and "feminine" (long eyelashes, say), even though reality doesn't bear that out as 100% true all of the time. i do not think masculine/feminine are inherently insulting descriptors by any stretch.
i think the problem with, for example, saying that a muscular woman is "manly" is twofold. first, it indicates that there are certain characteristics that are "natural" for only one sex to have, rather than acknowledging the full range of possibilities for what it means to be female or male. second, it attempts to define that woman as an "other" and put her outside the group to which she belongs because of whatever discomfort that the definer (like W's decider!) has with the notion of cross-gender characteristics. used as the way it was used in that post, it was exclusionary and insulting and implied that pink is not a "natural" woman.
It's sad that as women we can't just celebrate all body types, regardless of muscle definition, shape, whatever. Instead we judge them. And honestly, don't we get enough of that from men? Why must we do it to each other too?
This, too. If I had a nickle for every time a dude made a rude comment to myself or my CrossFit girls like "what's HIS name", I'd have a sock full of nickles to beat the asshole with. It's fucking infuriating.
Post by snipsnsnails on Feb 26, 2013 10:47:17 GMT -5
See, though, the categories are why I think I like to see people as a composite of lots of different characteristics. Some of them might be what our culture deems as masculine and some might be feminine, but neither are inherently better or worse than the other. At this point, maybe we need to use them as identifying because our culture is still holding so closely to them? Or do they have real physiological (or whatever) significance?
I haven't had quite enough coffee yet to answer this in the way I'd like to, but I'm gonna try.
I think context is a huge part of it, and I also think there are other ways to word things that don't use gender as a descriptor. For example, my jaw could well be described as masculine. I prefer to call it strong, and it feels like less of a dig. As a society, we're pretty caught up in gender identities and stereotypes -- and even though that's all becoming more fluid, it does feel like an insult when someone refers to you as the opposite of what you identify as.
That probably made very little sense. Time for more coffee.
ETA: Yeah, I took way too long to plod through my thoughts on this, and everyone else already said it better. Oh well! lol.
Post by melindafelinda on Feb 26, 2013 10:50:29 GMT -5
I'm just pissed that I didn't bring more attention to my conclusion that chipsandsalsa was the next crazy yesterday when she said she could tell Betty was from Texas by how she did her hair and makeup. (After Betty said she was in Houston no less.)
I haven't had quite enough coffee yet to answer this in the way I'd like to, but I'm gonna try.
I think context is a huge part of it, and I also think there are other ways to word things that don't use gender as a descriptor. For example, my jaw could well be described as masculine. I prefer to call it strong, and it feels like less of a dig. As a society, we're pretty caught up in gender identities and stereotypes -- and even though that's all becoming more fluid, it does feel like an insult when someone refers to you as the opposite of what you identify as.
That probably made very little sense. Time for more coffee.
ETA: Yeah, I took way too long to plod through my thoughts on this, and everyone else already said it better. Oh well! lol.
Made perfect sense to me, gozf! Especially the idea of gender identities becoming more fluid and what we can do to facilitate that while not being insulting.
Post by snipsnsnails on Feb 26, 2013 10:57:49 GMT -5
Understood, LHC. That's when I suppose we weigh out the risk of the uncomfortableness of the dialogue with the possible benefit of any "enlightenment" that might come with it.
Post by snipsnsnails on Feb 26, 2013 11:04:23 GMT -5
Yes, I think that's what I was trying to ask (clumsily) above. Is it beneficial to even move beyond this, knowing their are physiological stakes that can't be removed, nor should they be, while also acknowledging that perhaps some of the things we use and say are just classification holdovers from a time gone by, you know?
Yes, I think that's what I was trying to ask (clumsily) above. Is it beneficial to even move beyond this, knowing their are physiological stakes that can't be removed, nor should they be, while also acknowledging that perhaps some of the things we use and say are just classification holdovers from a time gone by, you know?
Are they, though? If you're talking about "a woman's place is in the kitchen," then sure. But some characteristics are inherently male or female. Like curves on a woman, which sadly I am lacking. But I never see that association changing.
Yes, I think that's what I was trying to ask (clumsily) above. Is it beneficial to even move beyond this, knowing their are physiological stakes that can't be removed, nor should they be, while also acknowledging that perhaps some of the things we use and say are just classification holdovers from a time gone by, you know?
Are they, though? If you're talking about "a woman's place is in the kitchen," then sure. But some characteristics are inherently male or female. Like curves on a woman, which sadly I am lacking. But I never see that association changing.
I think some, yes. And I think I'm also thinking beyond just things that are purely physical characteristics. There was a time when society seemed to stigmatize a man for portraying delicateness, perhaps, but now this is a characteristic we still seem to associate with women, but are learning to celebrate men who also posses it. I'm thinking particularly of some of my artist friends who use this in the context of their creativity all the time.
I also haven't had coffee so I can't get to the intelligent level of some. I found the "but" insulting in your statement. And the idea that strong = manly, like a woman can't be strong, strength isn't a female attribute. The way it was worded it sounds like the only way to be feminine and pretty is to be thin without muscle tone. That if you are a physically strong woman it's a male characteristic and not a strong and powerful attractive woman just seems wrong to me.
It goes right back to the boardroom argument that if a man is confident and assertive he makes a good leader and if a woman acts exactly the same she's a bitch.
Some people seemed to indicate that they would never like to refer to a woman as masculine, so it led me to believe that maybe they thought it to be insulting from the outset, regardless of presentation. Of course, it's hard to tell with the jabs that the OP threw in about no straight man finding that attractive (a particularly insulting thought).
I didn't say that a straight man would'nt find that attractive. I think that was the chips and salsa person? Sorry if anyone took offense to me calling pink's body manly looking. I have always had a hangup about women that are ripped like this:
I guess it is just not my cup of tea. I would definitely say I have been brainwashed to think that barbie doll figure is womanly and these strong women's bodies look manly. I see this photo a lot on pinterest:
You don't see many women in real life or on tv like this very often, and I wonder with all the crossfit type activities becoming mainstream if this image will someday not be as weird in my mind.
OK, I think that Obliques have long been muscles you see typically well defined on men. I would say in the past 15 years or so I see more women getting better definition there. So, i think when some people see those muscles, they think of them as being more "masculine". I personally don't love the look on women, but I wouldn't say the person is manly or unattractive, this is just my personal preference. Pink has an amazing body, man or woman.
Now, I have always had larger, more muscular arms and great upper body strength. Like, I could more chin ups than some guys I knew and was thus pretty self conscious of my arms. I've longed for dainty, sleek arms though I know they will never be in my future. lol
Post by Wrath0fKuus on Feb 26, 2013 17:23:12 GMT -5
I'm trying to figure out how to phrase what I think of this, something circular about misogyny and pressure for women to have one shape leading to anger and more misogyny and pressure for women to have a different shape.