Oh yeah, I understand when people say that. I still think its odd though. I mean - I can convert to Catholicism, right? You cant "convert" from Irish to Polish (well, you can change it legally but it doesn't make you "no longer born in Ireland to Irish parents). Therefore its not really an ethnicity at all. Not in the blood sense. And if we are talking in the social sense, then it can be left as easy as it can be joined.
Anyway, we have been around on these boards long enough to know these discussions get nowhere really lol. I will maintain that its strange to associate yourself with a group that you don't agree with, even if you were born into it. I mean, I was born into an evangelist Christian family of conservatives. Therefore my ethnicity is church going republican. You may have noticed that I am not one lol. And I would never associate with organizations that represent values that are abhorrent to me, even if that's what I was born into - but I do understand it can be hard to leave a group when everyone you know is in that group.
I disagree with the us on many issues (ie drones) but I remain here. I'm not leaving because it is part of me (well, not yet and even if I leave, I still would be American)
Thats a little bit disingenuous. How hard is it to leave a church? Just don't go there anymore. How hard is it to leave a country and move somewhere else? Let me count the ways lol!
But most don't join it. Most are born into it and it's often part of their local/community/family culture. did you read the thread?
ETA- upon re-reading it's primarily ESF's response that already covered your question.
This but also (and probably most importantly) they believe in the theology of the religion. Why should they leave the religion they were born with and continue to believe in because a bunch of old men in Rome are stuck in the dark ages? I think for many Catholics it makes more sense to continue to be active in their parishes, push for change where they can (look at the increasing number of women lay leaders for example), and hope that change will occur within their lifetimes.
But again, as was already mentioned in the thread, we're not exclusively talking about people who still attend services. We're simply talking about people who self-identify as Catholics. I'm sure many don't go to church any longer. that doesn't mean they stop self-identifying as Catholics. Just like if you do move you usually don't stop self-ientifying as *home country/city/state.*
This has been my experience, too. While Catholicism has a lot of specific rules and gets a lot of publicity, the (American) people who practice it tend to be a lot less soozyesque than a lot of other forms of Christianity.
I think it is probably the Christian religion that is most like Judaism, in that, more so than most Christian denominations, it's a religion that comes hand in hand with cultural/ethnic identities. So you've got these huge Irish, Italian, Polish, etc families, and many people identify as Catholic because baptisms and Catholic weddings are as much of a family tradition as they are a religious observance, much in the same way someone who doesn't keep Kosher or follow all tenants of Judiasm still celebrates Yom Kippur or would have a bar mitzvah. Other than Greek Orthodox (which for the one friend I have who identifies as that, it's more about being Greek than it is about believing what the Bible says), I am hard pressed to think of another Christian denomination that is as closely tied with an ethnicity or nationality. I think that's why there are so many more flavors of adherence to Catholic and Jewish teachings than there are in any other religion.
Just nitpicking here - you don't celebrate Yom Kippur. You observe it. It's not supposed to be a joyful holy day. It's pretty solemn. However, you are right about secular Jews not really doing anything Jewish (i.e. keeping Kosher, being Torah observant, etc.) and still finding meaning and value in their family's and the community's Jewish traditions.
A very close friend of mine (he's pretty much the older brother I never had) is a rabbi. When he was doing his studies in Jerusalem, he said that it was so great to him that regardless of the secular nature of so many of the Israelis, they were fervent about Passover. It's such a really fabulous celebration and every family has their own ways of celebrating and have seders. I've found that to be the case here among my secular Jewish friends - they are never more so Jewish than when Passover hits. It's something about connecting to your family, community, and culture in this one holiday that makes you just feel Jewish.
Anyway...I'm getting off topic, but I did want to say that I generally agree with what you're saying, ESF.
I disagree with the us on many issues (ie drones) but I remain here. I'm not leaving because it is part of me (well, not yet and even if I leave, I still would be American)
Thats a little bit disingenuous. How hard is it to leave a church? Just don't go there anymore. How hard is it to leave a country and move somewhere else? Let me count the ways lol!
Difficult but not impossible. My faith is as much a part of me as my nationality-something I was born into and take the good with the bad. Where there's a will, there (in most instances) is a way.
Reeve. It's easy to stop going to church. I have. But that doesn't, in my mind, make me non catholic. I'm still catholic, even if I do not follow the religion. There are many like me. Heck, i wouldnt be surprised if 1/3 of American Catholics are Christmas/Easter Catholics who go on those two days just because its family tradition.
Reeve. It's easy to stop going to church. I have. But that doesn't, in my mind, make me non catholic. I'm still catholic, even if I do not follow the religion. There are many like me. Heck, i wouldnt be surprised if 1/3 of American Catholics are Christmas/Easter Catholics who go on those two days just because its family tradition.
Huh...I never thought that was a thing - being a catholic and not following the religion. Thank you. That makes a lot of things make more sense
I wonder how many generations the "Ethnic Catholic who doesn't practice" can actually hold up. I quit going to church in HS, but I still had a Catholic wedding out of a sense of identity, and I definitely feel a solidarity with other Catholics.
Now I have 3 daughters whom DH and I've agreed to baptize Catholic, and we've had the 9-year-old and 5-year-old in CCD for the last 5 months in order to get then baptized. But then I wonder why the heck I'm doing this, given that I don't agree with the vast majority of what they're taught (beyond the modeling of progressivism and social justice that the stories surrounding Jesus convey).
That said, if you're an agnostic, how do you pass on the Catholic identity on to your children without the doctrine?
I don't know blue. If she doesn't feel the same way I do, that's fine with me.
But she will also grow up going to church on Christmas Eve with her huge family as part of tradition, and watching people have weddings in Churches, so she might view those as part other heritage too.
I went to mass in elementary school, but by the time I was around 12 we stopped going except for Christmas and Easter as well. Now, I did go to a Catholic college, but I did not practice there either. I was obviously surrounded by it though.
Oh goody, another "why don't you just quit being Catholic" thread.
FWIW, I was raised C&E Catholic, never went through catechism. I was married in the Church and it's still a very important part of my faith and my heritage. I know it's not a common thing, but I think it's possible for future generations to retain it.