Pete is 11 and puberty is right around the corner so I'm trying to get a start on combating the unrealistic images of women and girls that surrounds him, fucking photoshop. I was showing him just the other day Buzzfeed's comparison between edited and unedited images, and trying to get through the point that the unedited versions are not ugly. They are real and that you can't expect women to look like supermodels.
gah, that was a lot more wording than I was trying to get across.
So talk to me. What kind of things do you think is important to instill in boys? I feel like we (as a society) spend a lot of time anticipating, counteracting, dealing with raising girls but we sort of let boys fend for themselves.
I don't know how I would teach it but I feel like boys need to understand that girls think differently than boys. When I boy tells a girl he loves her or that she is beautiful, stuff like that, it means something really specific to her. I think boys figure out quickly (older than 11 mind you) that they can manipulate girls with that.
Just teach him to treat girls the way he would want other boys to treat his sisters.
Just teach him to treat girls the way he would want other boys to treat his sisters.
I don't think it's enough just as it's not enough to tell girls to date men who have the same qualities as their fathers.
I don't mean to be contrary here but as I've said, we invest a lot in our girls, telling them to shape themselves to prepare for the world. Well, our boys are the world and perhaps if we spent as much time investing in their development, we wouldn't have to make our girls watch their step so carefully.
I don't mean to pick on you. It's just something I find grating in general about our society.
How do we teach boys to unlearn the entitlement their gender has granted them? How not to participate in the climate that treats girls as secondary or something they are entitled to?
Also, girls are in a world of hurt if pete starts treating them as condescendingly and dismissively as he does his sister. We're working on that, trust.
that's my approach. I pick books for DS that are about strong women especially when he reads biographies/autobiographies (Helen Keller, Amelia Earhart, Clara Barton, Sacagewea, Susan B Anthony, Hilary Clinton, etc).
My brothers always treat the girls they dated much better than they treat me :-)
I worry about this too Habs. It's one of the reasons having a boy scares me. I am terrified that he will become an asshole, or maybe not even that strong a word - I will just be very disappointed if he treats anyone like they matter less, but especially females. I know that no one wants their kid to treat other people like shit, but like you said, I think our society does tend to ingrain a sense of entitlement in boys, and its an odd sense of entitlement. Like boys know they have this free ticket in some ways - if you are good at sports, lots of bad things can be swept under the rug (and certainly professional sports does not do anything to dispute that);if you are nicer than people expect, lots of things are overlooked, and so on. I think SOME of those things are true for girls but not in the same way. I can't really put my finger on it.
Anyway, I start with how my husband treats me. We have a good marriage and my husband does treat me really well, but I am cautioning him to watch some of his offhand comments or some of his jokes. Like we have a standing joke about this one time, we got a new vacuum,and I couldn't figure out where the switch was (it was my first upright vacuum, growing up always had the one with the hose). Anyway, so it has become a standing joke that I can't turn on the vacuum. (I can now, lol.) But I told him I didnt want him making jokes like that in front of DS, even now. I don't want DS to think it is funny to laugh at what other people don't know because his father has done it regarding his mother. Basically I think if you demonstrate respect and kindness, your kids will mirror that.
My brothers do not have a sense of entitlement, not really. They can be assholes in their own way but they are pretty good guys overall. I think this is because my parents didn't let them get away with much. "You got a bad grade because you didn't study on the ski trip? Oh well, too bad so sad, no ski trip next year" or whatever (I dont think they went on ski trips, ha. just as an example.) they both worked their butts off in HS and got good grades, were active, played sports, and so on. They didn't get any breaks and I think made a big difference. I contrast this with my aunt, who acted like her oldest was a gift from the gods because he could play lacrosse reasonably well for their area (but not good enough to get the free ride for it that she had been saying he would get, so his grades didnt matter because it was all about lacrosse.) And she (my aunt) is a big fan of the phrase "boys will be boys" which I have NEVER once heard my mother say. It's a free pass for bad behavior and it's stupid.
Post by PinkSquirrel on Mar 11, 2013 11:45:04 GMT -5
Since Petey likes his books, I would look into some anti-oppression books and some books that talk about privilege. Have him start thinking about those things. I think anything you find will also draw in race as well. I don't want this to come out wrong, but as a young black man he probably does have a better chance of not being an asshole when he grows up because while in some ways he has the ability to be the oppressor and exercise his privileged, it's also likely that he has and will experience the opposite end of things because of his race. I have zero recommendations for books for an 11 year old, but I can ask around.
I may not have worded my posts well because I'm not only referring to the beauty myth and such. I'm talking about life lessons and things that you put effort into with girls, such as self esteem, healthy relationships, personal integrity, and such that we don't necessarily talk to boys about as much.
We teach girls to look out for smarmy douches. But I'm not sure if we spend an adequate amount of time watching out for smarmy douche tendencies in boys. We tell girls to watch out for boys who don't value them but are we direct enough with boys on how to value girls, how to value themselves?
I don't think I'm articulating myself well. To bring Taylor Swift into it, I don't want my daughter to grow up to view the world the way Swifty seems to but I don't want my boys to grow up to be the guys she's singing about either, kwim? I wonder if anyone else is thinking about these things too, wondering if you're teaching your boys enough, talking about enough of these things with them.
I knew what you meant....and I think the only way to do it is really the same way you do it with girls. Similar conversations, similar values. etc. AND honestly, I know this sounds kind of lame but I think also treating pinky and pete as similar as possible will go a long way. My brother got a C? He was in trouble. I got a C? I was in trouble. It wasn't ironclad bc my parents knew we had different strengths (so when I got a B+ in honors calc my parents were happy, had my brother gotten a B in AP Calc they would have been furious.) But everyone had to clean the kitchen, everyone had to mow the lawn, and so forth.
I think the boys who tend to treat girls well ARE the ones with self esteem, a sense of healthy relationships, personal integrity, etc. It's hard to separate the things.
I want my son to be a good person and to be happy. I think helping him find his strengths and encouraging him to pursue his interests while at the same time not letting him think the world revolves around those interests will go a long way towards that.
Also I think my brothers learned a LOT of positive things from an all-boys school. this isn't true across the board for all boys obviously and sometimes that environment breeds huge assholes. My mom always said that my one brother would have succeeded anywhere, but their HS saved my bother brother. He found strengths that differentiated him from his much smarter, more outgoing, and more social younger brother. He found teachers who encouraged his interests in a way that changed his life, I think. For HIM, the all-boys environment let his self-esteem grow in a way that was really instrumental in who he is today.
Of course then I see the total tools who come from some of the other all-boys schools and I'm not surprised. But I think they were tools before, ha.
How about we go in a different direction then because I agree that you and I are thinking similarly. I guess I'm wondering about specific topics anyone is thinking about when talking to/dealing with boys.
For one, I'd like him to be able to identify when he's dealing with a Taylor Swift or an Amber from Teen Moms.
I'd like him to understand about consent and not sleeping with drunk girls and not befriending girls in the hopes that they will come cry to you about their jerk boyfriend and you can then try to get in their pants.
I'd like to warn him off from the pseudo nice guy syndrome, where dude thinks it's unfair that hot girls don't like him because he's not the ideal douche but doesn't see the inherent hypocrisy in overlooking less than hot girls for the same reasons.
Well, mine's only 2, so not a whole lot of talking about much of anything other than trains yet. But I understand what you're talking about. I agree with @mrsbecky07 about watching his father's interaction. It's something I pointed out to DH early in our dating that I don't like a behavior that his father models towards his mom (and that DH has copied). And I'm worried about DS picking it up when we visit them. DH doesn't do it on our house to me though. Those little behaviors and how they are responded to early I think spill into everything else.
You demonstrate respect to your mom, your siblings, your teachers, your boss, your coworkers, etc. We don't have different rules for home vs public. For example, a lot of boys (and girls) are perfect angels for their teachers, but get away with a ton at home. So then what do they do when it's just peers; which kid do you get, the good one or the not so good?
I think the biggest skill that can be taught is to think about the long term implications of their decisions. Teens/YAs aren't known for their decision making skills. In any decision you get to be a part of or hear about, make them question what the longer term outcomes of this decision might be. Without even judging those outcomes, just make them go through that process so that it becomes second nature.
I am a bit bothered by the thought process that males are "entitled". I think starting out with that mindset about raising boys sets us back. Why are you starting them out on a different playing field that your girls if you want them to be raised with the same standards for themselves? I know I am not wording that right. Just don't assume from the start that they are going to turn out a certain negative way unless you do something to change it if you wouldn't do the same for your girl.
I am a bit bothered by the thought process that males are "entitled". I think starting out with that mindset about raising boys sets us back. Why are you starting them out on a different playing field that your girls if you want them to be raised with the same standards for themselves? I know I am not wording that right. Just don't assume from the start that they are going to turn out a certain negative way unless you do something to change it if you wouldn't do the same for your girl.
So you don't think society tells boys they are entitled? That life will happen to them if they are good enough, that getting a hot girlfriend, a decent job, and a nice car are a given?
Anyway, I start with how my husband treats me. We have a good marriage and my husband does treat me really well, but I am cautioning him to watch some of his offhand comments or some of his jokes. Like we have a standing joke about this one time, we got a new vacuum,and I couldn't figure out where the switch was (it was my first upright vacuum, growing up always had the one with the hose). Anyway, so it has become a standing joke that I can't turn on the vacuum. (I can now, lol.) But I told him I didnt want him making jokes like that in front of DS, even now. I don't want DS to think it is funny to laugh at what other people don't know because his father has done it regarding his mother. Basically I think if you demonstrate respect and kindness, your kids will mirror that.
Not that I know much about raising boys yet but this is very important for me too. I feel like it's more important to show my kids how to act than tell them what to do in XYZ circumstance, although that's also important. It's something I have to constantly keep in mind, even when I'm alone with the kids b/c I have a tendency to think "oh they're still so little, they won't notice." And this goes beyond teaching them about male-female relationships. I don't think I have a lot of credibility when I tell my kids to treat strangers respectfully while I'm screaming "MOVE IT ASSHOLE" at the car in front of me that takes a thousand years to turn out of my lane. I can't really articulate well what or how specifically I want my kids to learn b/c we're just not there yet.
I am a bit bothered by the thought process that males are "entitled". I think starting out with that mindset about raising boys sets us back. Why are you starting them out on a different playing field that your girls if you want them to be raised with the same standards for themselves? I know I am not wording that right. Just don't assume from the start that they are going to turn out a certain negative way unless you do something to change it if you wouldn't do the same for your girl.
So you don't think society tells boys they are entitled? That life will happen to them if they are good enough, that getting a hot girlfriend, a decent job, and a nice car are a given?
Okay then.
I don't think any more than girls have a correlating list of things if they are pretty enough. It's not particular to boys.
I don't think any more than girls have a correlating list of things if they are pretty enough. It's not particular to boys.
Yeah, I'm going to disagree particularly as the list of boy entitlements isn't contingent on anything more than having a penis. Kevin James is entitled to Leah Remini. Most girls aren't entitled to anything but an apartment full of cats unless they are skinny and pretty and the right kind of skinny obviously.
I don't think any more than girls have a correlating list of things if they are pretty enough. It's not particular to boys.
Yeah, I'm going to disagree particularly as the list of boy entitlements isn't contingent on anything more than having a penis. Kevin James is entitled to Leah Remini. Most girls aren't entitled to anything but an apartment full of cats unless they are skinny and pretty and the right kind of skinny obviously.
I do not understand this. You're saying fat, ugly boys/men think they can just get a supermodel because they have a functioning penis?
Yeah, I'm going to disagree particularly as the list of boy entitlements isn't contingent on anything more than having a penis. Kevin James is entitled to Leah Remini. Most girls aren't entitled to anything but an apartment full of cats unless they are skinny and pretty and the right kind of skinny obviously.
I do not understand this. You're saying fat, ugly boys/men think they can just get a supermodel because they have a functioning penis?
Yeah, I think many do. Or they think that personality doesnt matter as long as they are good looking (why was Joey considered the ladies man on Friends when he seemed like such a dullard.) I mean heck, we have another thread going on this board about boys who thought they got a pass on rape because they played football. And they very nearly did.
i dont think this is every guy, but I think our society definitely gives men the impression that they can be with the hot, sexy smart successful woman and they dont have to do a whole lot, because he will make her laugh and that will be enough.
I feel like we are making men out to be assholes but I think this is more about society as a whole than individual males.
I do not understand this. You're saying fat, ugly boys/men think they can just get a supermodel because they have a functioning penis?
You didn't know this?
Not my experience with any of the boys/men in my life. They all seemed to fully comprehend that not everyone gets the supermodel. Sure, they could dream, but I don't think any of them actually thought they were entitled to that.
Maybe we have a different definition of entitled, because I see it as the same as most upper middle class kids think they are entitled to their parents paying for them to go to college wherever they want. And it's a huge upset in their world when they figure out that's not going to happen because they never imagined life could go on any other way.
I do think it's important to model behaviors for your children but I think it's equally important, if not more so to talk to your children about why you live that way and what other things they might encounter out there.
For instance, my childhood bff's parents have a great marriage, a great family life and she grew up with some very good examples in her life. I think all of their family comes from strong marriages, good family lives etc. So when she grew up and started dating, she assumed that if you got married, had babies, it would be the same. But for one, she dated a dude who didn't have good behaviors modeled for him. He came from an abusive family, had no relationship with much of his extended family and none of them had healthy family lives. So it was bewildering to her when after they got married, things didn't settle in neatly.
Now I'm blathering LOL.
I guess I worry that they will see things only through the view of how we lived, kwim?
How about we go in a different direction then because I agree that you and I are thinking similarly. I guess I'm wondering about specific topics anyone is thinking about when talking to/dealing with boys.
For one, I'd like him to be able to identify when he's dealing with a Taylor Swift or an Amber from Teen Moms.
I'd like him to understand about consent and not sleeping with drunk girls and not befriending girls in the hopes that they will come cry to you about their jerk boyfriend and you can then try to get in their pants.
I'd like to warn him off from the pseudo nice guy syndrome, where dude thinks it's unfair that hot girls don't like him because he's not the ideal douche but doesn't see the inherent hypocrisy in overlooking less than hot girls for the same reasons.
I think the bolded is obviously an important part about raising boys and I think it kind of belongs in a separate category because it is more important in a way. Not that you want your kid to be taken advantage of by a crazycakes or to be part of the pseudo nice guy syndrome (BTW, can we talk about that, bc I keep hearing about it but all the nice guys I knew in college always had girlfriends. It was the assholes who were always single. I find it more true that the bitchy girls were never single or without potential dates and the nice girls were left behind. anyway, I digress.)
I think the part about consent and not sleeping with drunk girls is something you can only convey through a talk. You have to make it crystal clear to him - if you aren't sure if she is consenting, stop. If you aren't sure if she is coherent enough to consent, stop. I just think there's no beating around the bush on that one. I think much like you might tell a daughter that she can ALWAYS say no, no matter what he's bought or whatever, you convey the same thing to a son. she can ALWAYS say no (and so can the son.)
Now that said, I'll say H kind of had the pseudo nice guy syndrome. he was very melodramatic in HS and college and everything became this huge monumental ORDEAL that MEANT SOMETHING and it was a SIGN that nice guys got SCREWED. (not literally.) he would write 5 page poems about a girl. LOL. But he only wanted to date hot girls. They had to be hot first, then he dealt with their personalities. And he wondered why his dating life was such a trainwreck, lol.
Anyway, I know I'm kind of rambling here because my thoughts are rambling here. I think these types of things just really involve open communication. Your DS comes to you because his new GF wants a ring on her finger and its been one date? Talk to him about Swifty. My brothers both talk to my mom regularly, maybe more than I do. She has a fair idea of what is going on in their lives, and always has, and I think it's because the lines of communication are so open. My mom does a really good job of supporting them but not enabling them. And she never has.
Again, compare to my aunt, whose sons also call her regularly, she knows their GFs, etc. But when my cousin wrecked his girlfriend's car (which he was driving because he had wrecked his, and oh his license was suspended), my aunt said "oh sweetie dont worry, I'll drive an hour to take you the 10 blocks to your job, wait around for your shift to finish, and then drive you back to your apartment." Or if a girl dumps him she says "well I never liked her anyway," even if the reason she dumped him was because he had cheated on her regularly and she was tired of getting STDs. (True story.)
Yeah, I think many do. Or they think that personality doesnt matter as long as they are good looking (why was Joey considered the ladies man on Friends when he seemed like such a dullard.) I mean heck, we have another thread going on this board about boys who thought they got a pass on rape because they played football. And they very nearly did.
i dont think this is every guy, but I think our society definitely gives men the impression that they can be with the hot, sexy smart successful woman and they dont have to do a whole lot, because he will make her laugh and that will be enough.
I feel like we are making men out to be assholes but I think this is more about society as a whole than individual males.
Or that a superficial definition of nice is reason enough for the hot girls to like you and pay attention to you. However, it's not enough to make you pay attention to the nice girls at school who may not be the stereotypical definition of hot.
The King of Queen type dude expects the cheerleaders to appreciate that he's not a complete douchebag creep but he doesn't give the same deference to the Rebel Wilsons of this world.
I do think it's important to model behaviors for your children but I think it's equally important, if not more so to talk to your children about why you live that way and what other things they might encounter out there.
For instance, my childhood bff's parents have a great marriage, a great family life and she grew up with some very good examples in her life. I think all of their family comes from strong marriages, good family lives etc. So when she grew up and started dating, she assumed that if you got married, had babies, it would be the same. But for one, she dated a dude who didn't have good behaviors modeled for him. He came from an abusive family, had no relationship with much of his extended family and none of them had healthy family lives. So it was bewildering to her when after they got married, things didn't settle in neatly.
Now I'm blathering LOL.
I guess I worry that they will see things only through the view of how we lived, kwim?
That's a really good point. I think this may have happened to my sister. Not that he didn't have good models, because his parents seem just find, don't know how he is so f-ed up. But that she wasn't strong enough to accept early that the situation wasn't really right. She assumed everything would work out right. Sure, he thought she should clean his dorm room, but when it came to a shared house, it would be okay (as an extremely benign example).
Once they start dating that wrong person it seems to be too late though because then you are just judging their choices and alienate them. How do you start that conversation in advance though so that they will listen?
Yeah, I'm going to disagree particularly as the list of boy entitlements isn't contingent on anything more than having a penis. Kevin James is entitled to Leah Remini. Most girls aren't entitled to anything but an apartment full of cats unless they are skinny and pretty and the right kind of skinny obviously.
I do not understand this. You're saying fat, ugly boys/men think they can just get a supermodel because they have a functioning penis?
Why do you think they got to vote before us? Lol. Male privilege, especially white male privilege, is our society's standard. Think about it like this: A straight white protestant guy between the ages of 18 and 45 ish has the most privilege, the playing field is most tilted his direction. From there, every difference in those descriptors (straight, white, protestant, male, young) is a societal strike against the person in question. A black straight white protestant young male has it less easy than our standard white guy, by default. A gay hispanic older male has it much harder. Etc, etc.
This isn't based on socioeconomic standing or anything else. It's just straight up how many opportunities you get based on race, gender, age, sexuality, religious preference, and body abledness. It just is.
Not my experience with any of the boys/men in my life. They all seemed to fully comprehend that not everyone gets the supermodel. Sure, they could dream, but I don't think any of them actually thought they were entitled to that.
Maybe we have a different definition of entitled, because I see it as the same as most upper middle class kids think they are entitled to their parents paying for them to go to college wherever they want. And it's a huge upset in their world when they figure out that's not going to happen because they never imagined life could go on any other way.
Maybe not supermodels but typical idealized beauty, yes.
I was just discussing this w/ H regarding "cheerleaders" in hockey - because they actually just have really hot chicks in tight clothes come out and shovel the ice between periods and I was SUPER ANNOYED. H was arguing that it lends to "entertainment value" in hockey, kind of like football and other big sports. Then my head exploded. When I explained that I am a woman sports fan, and the idea that half naked women = entertainment for sports fans is super insulting and obnoxious and what if we were watching hockey and they had shirtless beefcake dudes come out in the name of entertainment how would he feel about it.... he finally got it. Also our little boys are already learning that this is done for them by watching sports. Why aren't the sports enough?
I hate that even super liberated men are just programmed from childhood that it's their right to see half naked skanks everywhere they go. Sigh.
I do not understand this. You're saying fat, ugly boys/men think they can just get a supermodel because they have a functioning penis?
Why do you think they got to vote before us? Lol. Male privilege, especially white male privilege, is our society's standard. Think about it like this: A straight white protestant guy between the ages of 18 and 45 ish has the most privilege, the playing field is most tilted his direction. From there, every difference in those descriptors (straight, white, protestant, male, young) is a societal strike against the person in question. A black straight white protestant young male has it less easy than our standard white guy, by default. A gay hispanic older male has it much harder. Etc, etc.
This isn't based on socioeconomic standing or anything else. It's just straight up how many opportunities you get based on race, gender, age, sexuality, religious preference, and body abledness. It just is.
I'm not talking about all those other categories. Strictly men vs women. What do MEN think they are entitled to because they are a man, not a woman?
Post by Anne Blythe on Mar 11, 2013 13:05:55 GMT -5
Also, Habs... I wish I knew. Jack is 3, so ya know, I have some time to figure it out. But we already talk about respecting your body, and others' bodies, and personal space. As a toddler, it's tough for him to understand that, but I think mutual body respect is really important, and something we'll continue to discuss. It's important for him to know that we value all of his talents, and that we also value the talents of others, and that even though he is very special to us, he is not more important than anyone else. Once we move into more "don't be a bully / nice guy / rapist / criminal / jerk" territory, I don't know. I hope we'll figure it out as we go along. I just want to raise a man that respects other living beings, respects himself, understands that his life is charmed in many ways, and uses his opportunities to help others.
Once they start dating that wrong person it seems to be too late though because then you are just judging their choices and alienate them. How do you start that conversation in advance though so that they will listen?
And that's exactly what I'm trying to figure out. He's 11 but he's in the church youth group now and his favorite person in the world is a codependent 14 year old with a girlfriend who he gets back together with by crying whenever she breaks up with him. It's funny and sad at the same time. They are good kids, sweet kids.
I guess we've entered the phase of life where everything is a teaching moment. It's also important to me to deal with this with bird because of the age difference between him and pudding. We have a lot of say in parenting the baby, obviously but he's going to be looking to his big brother (hopefully lol.) Pete will likely be looking as seriously dating for the long term when pudding is hitting those teen dating years. So I'm pretty much raising one of pudding's future influences.