Why do you think they got to vote before us? Lol. Male privilege, especially white male privilege, is our society's standard. Think about it like this: A straight white protestant guy between the ages of 18 and 45 ish has the most privilege, the playing field is most tilted his direction. From there, every difference in those descriptors (straight, white, protestant, male, young) is a societal strike against the person in question. A black straight white protestant young male has it less easy than our standard white guy, by default. A gay hispanic older male has it much harder. Etc, etc.
This isn't based on socioeconomic standing or anything else. It's just straight up how many opportunities you get based on race, gender, age, sexuality, religious preference, and body abledness. It just is.
I'm not talking about all those other categories. Strictly men vs women. What do MEN think they are entitled to because they are a man, not a woman?
Religious control, being the "head of the household", being the breadwinner / getting more pay than women, not being the primary childcare provider, the attention of women, especially attractive women, sex, power, etc. And it's not like men think this. Even very enlightened feminist men find it difficult to realize their own privilege in our society, because it makes them feel a) helpless, b) like they didn't earn what they got (which is not true; they just, as a group, didn't have to work as hard to get their opportunities), and c) bitter at the receding power that is the white male demographic. Entitlement isn't really a conscious thing in this situation.
I think men think they are entitled to behave differently. And I think it starts at a young age. I got in trouble in school because I wasn't "ladylike." (I didnt always raise my hand, I was loud, etc). Do you think any boy got in trouble for being un-gentlemanly? No. The only reason the boy who called girls "sluts" got in trouble (in 8th grade) was because my mom called the head nun and pointed out the double standard. Even then, I think he was just told to stop, whereas I got a detention for saying someone was hot because it wasn't proper for a girl to use such language (yes, that was said.)
So I think even from a young age, men start to think that different rules apply to them. It's not always this huge blatant thing. Most of the times it is subtle. The idea of the boys club isn't that far gone from our society, I'd say in many ways its not gone at all.
but like habs pointed out - boys thinking they "deserve" the hot girl because the pretty but not hot girl is beneath them, regardless of how nice she is, and regardless of how hot they are, because hey, they're nicer than that jerk QB,right?
If you add in class and money you get a whole different kind of entitled douche.
And they usually aren't even that nice. They're just not dicks and you can totally be not a dick and yet not a good guy either.
Ugh, right? By very virtue of being a "nice guy," they aren't nice. They are conditionally-not-a-dick. As soon as you don't sleep with them, they will reveal their unconditionally-a-dick forms, and you will kick yourself for thinking dudes make good BFF material. Again.
I'm nowhere near this age/struggle yet, but I think part of the reality too is your kids will make mistakes and be douchey at times no matter how much we use teaching moments, talk to them, offer positive role models and whatever other tricks we have up our sleeves to make them good, productive members of society. Do your best; the fact that your asking this question is probably a great sign. But we've all dated the guy who treated us badly, worried about if something 'makes us look fat,' and possibly hid how smart we were to make a good impression on someone knowing it was wrong. DH is a great husband and father now, but he had some bullying tendencies in high school because football players could get away with it, slept around a bit and tossed some girls to the side, and focused a lot on material goods and superficial tendencies thinking it made him happier. We all do things we're not proud of as teenagers and in our 20's, and in doing so define what we want to be so we're in a better place as we get older. It's uncomfortable and awkward and painful. And I'm sure as a parent it's going to be very difficult to see my child go through difficult phases. But I know I won't know everything that he's up to at some point, he may experiment with different behaviors/personality traits and push boundaries, and I know he's going to have to screw up and probably hurt others along the way to a degree as part of becoming a well-rounded adult. Make sure rape is unacceptable-check. Teach them drugs are bad and get a DD if you're drunk--check. Hit on the major points, but they're just not going to be perfect.
Someone needs to repost the list of male privlege that are not highly visible for the non-believers. Including items such as men pay less for better clothes for no particular reason, etc.
Someone needs to repost the list of male privlege that are not highly visible for the non-believers. Including items such as men pay less for better clothes for no particular reason, etc.
Oh, gosh, right? Bun and I each got jeans and a shirt from the same store last week. Roughly the same style shirt: a tissue t-shirt, mine with a v-neck, his with a crew.
@historychick79 - I don't think anyone here expects their children to be perfect. But I want those mistakes to be phases or just one-time incidents, I don't want them to become part of his character, which is what I think @habbsies is talking about. I can't prevent my kid from mistakes nor do I want to,because that is how they learn. But I can help him to learn from those mistakes.
Post by mrsukyankee on Mar 11, 2013 14:33:23 GMT -5
Talk to your sons about porn. At this point, if he's been on the internet on his own, he's already seen a ton of it. It's everywhere and it is skewing the views of boys on what is appropriate for sex and sexuality. Talk to him about images and how they should and shouldn't be used (as in sexing). Talk about respecting girls and not asking them to send naked pics, and to not send theirs. This is a huge problem in middle schools and high schools (I'm a counsellor).
@historychick79 - I don't think anyone here expects their children to be perfect. But I want those mistakes to be phases or just one-time incidents, I don't want them to become part of his character, which is what I think @habbsies is talking about. I can't prevent my kid from mistakes nor do I want to,because that is how they learn. But I can help him to learn from those mistakes.
Exactly. I want them to be "I caught up but I knew and now I know more. Also, some mistakes are not worth making. And I also don't want them to get the notion that making mistakes is okay, ala bliss or that all fuck ups can be classified as a mistake.
If you knew better and did it anyway, that's not a mistake, that's deliberate and I want my kids regardless of gender to take responsibility for their decisions. I also don't want them to try to brush off the consequences or dismiss criticism because they think it is their right to fuck up because they are young.
At the risk of beetlejuicing her, bliss does this and it infuriates me. You are not entitled to screw up because you are young.
You are not entitled to screw up because you are young.
Eh, this is tricky. There is plenty of proof that the human brain is still developing and cannot make entirely accurate judgement calls and fully understand long-term repercussions; some studies say this can last until you're about 25. So there for error on the basic grounds of biology and in-the-moment peer pressure where you are just going to be an idiot; that barrier just isn't there. Hopefully solid family support and moral grounding and conversations and yada yada yada minimizes this, and your screw ups don't have long term consequences like incurable diseases and jail time. But there's a reason why we've all been 'young and stupid,' because to some degree you simply are. Biology doesn't entirely excuse behavior, but it plays a role.
Okay, let me try this again. It is normal and expected to fuck up when you're young. You lack experience, your brain isn't developed, all that jazz. But none of that means you get to look at a shitty situation and repeatedly make the shitty choice because well "I'm 22 and that's what we do at this age."
You are young and stupid when you are under 25. This doesn't mean you get to deliberately be young and stupid, kwim? Fuck up because you didn't know better, because you didn't think it through, because you had good intentions, not because it's what you think young people should do.
parenting is such a mindfuck. that's my eloquent contribution.
well, i know one thing my parents did with my brother was talk pretty frankly about the people around us (actually around us and "around us" in the media). my uncle got divorced when my brother was in middle school and they didn't talk about her as "that bitch who broke his heart", but as someone who my uncle had grown apart from. and when my crazy-ass aunt got divorced from my ex-crazy-ass uncle, they talked about how the confluence of crazy magnified their independent, inherent issues. clearly, the point of family isn't a handy source for object lessons, but i remember being surprised that they had such mature conversations with him about relationship dynamics (i'm 5.5 years older, so i'd sort of thought they'd shelter him more).
and whenever my dad would spout his occasional old-ass stupid ideas about male/female dynamics (one such lovely notion was "men are only as faithful as their options") my mother and i would debate the hell out of it for ages, in front of my brother. and by "debate the hell out of it" i mean rail on with 3-pronged arguments about why that's insulting to men, women, and the human race as a whole.
I was just discussing this w/ H regarding "cheerleaders" in hockey - because they actually just have really hot chicks in tight clothes come out and shovel the ice between periods and I was SUPER ANNOYED. H was arguing that it lends to "entertainment value" in hockey, kind of like football and other big sports. Then my head exploded. When I explained that I am a woman sports fan, and the idea that half naked women = entertainment for sports fans is super insulting and obnoxious and what if we were watching hockey and they had shirtless beefcake dudes come out in the name of entertainment how would he feel about it.... he finally got it. Also our little boys are already learning that this is done for them by watching sports. Why aren't the sports enough?
I hate that even super liberated men are just programmed from childhood that it's their right to see half naked skanks everywhere they go. Sigh.
I was JUST at a hockey game last night and this annoys me so much. Los Angeles did it a few years ago, but I wasn't aware that most of the teams are doing it now. :/ (And I've seen the ads for recruiting the ice girls - it's shit pay, it's pretty hard work, you have to have all sorts of random availability, you have to have the right kind of hair, face and body... and knowing how to skate isn't a prerequisite. They'll teach you! I mean, maybe some women think it's fun, but I have no idea what kind of skills and experience this type of job will lead to, since it sure as hell isn't an end in its own right.) This reminds me that the 8 year old-ish boy sitting next to me last night was also being a douche (mostly heckling my goaltender and shouting how my team sucked) and his parents didn't make any comments about how unsportsmanlike that was, which was disappointing.
Anyway, I feel like I should ask my MIL about raising feminists sons. I assume it's partially my in-laws' influence, but my husband is ridiculously feminist and has no concept of gender norms, really. In an amazing way. Like, I totally caught him wearing my pink bathrobe one day because he couldn't find his, and to him, being embarassed about doing that wouldn't even cross his mind. He has no knowledge that "girl things" are seen as "less than." Not, like, he knows and rejects it. Just, like, it's never occurred to him. It's awesome.
Post by heightsyankee on Mar 11, 2013 17:05:30 GMT -5
My boys are too young for me to offer much advice but I am enjoying reading the conversation. Side note: Is porn star #3's name pronounced like "idea?"
From my non-parent perspective, and from your recent requests for sex-ed books, I'd really stress the concept of affirmative consent. We aim so many messages to girls: don't get drunk, don't be manipulated, don't wear short skirts. Where are the lessons for boys? They should learn that drunk, passive consent isn't consent at all.
Also, watch for how he talks about women/girls. I'm sure you can get some cues as to whether he's all BOOBS! and slut shaming. I remember referring to a girl as a slut. I didn't even know what it meant, but I knew it was an insult. Which led my mom to ask, first, if I knew what it meant, and then to lead into a discussion of the further implications of that word.
ETA: I would think you've already been doing a good job all along. You have him cook and clean. That alone sets him apart, to not see that as women's work.
Honestly I think the fact that you are actually thinking about this is at least half the battle. That's my non-parent perspective but I really don't get the impression that this is something most parents of boys worry about too much. And it shows in how they speak in front of their kids and describe their kids. Exhibit A: H's cousin who dressed his 5 year old son as a "terrorist" and his 7 year old daughter as a "sexy devil" for Halloween.
Really? a 7 yr old as a sexy devil? of the hundreds of costume options that's what they let her go with?