This is my thing. I do't actually think that the Catholic Church will allow gay marriage, and honestly, I don't really care if they do.
But for me the problem lies with the outspokenness of it's evils. If you don't want to marry gay people in your church, then don't, but maybe just stop talking about how no one should let them be married.
And I didn't want to poo on the other thread, but given the pope's compassion toward those suffering with AIDS, maybe the church should take a firmer stance on the necessities of birth control.
ETA: When I say I don't care, what I mean is that the legal aspect, to me, admittedly as a non-gay person, is what matters. There are other churches to get married in, there is no other law.
This is my thing. I do't actually think that the Catholic Church will allow gay marriage, and honestly, I don't really care if they do.
But for me the problem lies with the outspokenness of it's evils. If you don't want to marry gay people in your church, then don't, but maybe just stop talking about how no one should let them be married.
This is where I'm at. I was raised RCC but am an atheist, so I don't care about what religions allow inside their walls.
Obviously, I think everyone is legally entitled to be married.
I know gay Catholics who would love to marry in their church. And cannot. And, it really freaks me out when gay people speak like this, because it actually doesn't help the cause.
I think it's wholly unfair to place an entire movement like changing religion's POV (which I agree w LHC on) onto one person's opinion and feelings.
Post by mrlittlejeans on Mar 14, 2013 12:09:13 GMT -5
I'm not Catholic anymore, but even when I was, I would not have been able to get married in a Catholic Church. So, I'm not sure it's just gay people that they are excluding. What are your thoughts on civil unions?
I know gay Catholics who would love to marry in their church. And cannot. And, it really freaks me out when gay people speak like this, because it actually doesn't help the cause.
I do not understand this either. How can you belong to a church/religous organization that condemns who you are?
I grew up with 2 moms but we belonged to a liberal episocopal church.
The misogynistic stance that our particular diocese had, including my family members that were priests and nuns, always made me feel like a 2nd class citizens. This was my main, but not only, reason for leaving.
While I agree with you that religious marriage isn't necessary, for some people it is an important part of their family/culture and it sucks that churches won't allow that. For instance, my mom doesn't believe your marriage is real until it happens in a church. So if I was gay, she wouldn't see my marriage as real. Who am I kidding? My mom agrees with the church about gay marriage...ugh.
I don't know. I am talking out of my ass. I think it is wonderful that some churches are more open. I don't expect too much from the other ones (like mine).
Post by mrlittlejeans on Mar 14, 2013 12:13:10 GMT -5
So, it's a language thing or are there differences in the rights associated with each? Sorry if I sound like an idiot I have three small boys who have stolen my brain cells.
I think it's wholly unfair to place an entire movement like changing religion's POV (which I agree w LHC on) onto one person's opinion and feelings.
I think if you're a minority group, you need to be speaking for your group. That is just me. Otherwise, you really aren't helping others who struggle with inequality within their church. Seriously, is that opinion helping? No, it's easing people's minds. 'She's fine with it..' Because not everyone knows gay people.
Listen, when it comes down to it, mommy monster can tell me to kiss her ass and she can think/feel what she wants. I know that. But, I feel like it's a responsibility to those who struggle.
Same goes for women. If women are having issues with something, and it is unfair, I will speak out to help them, even if I'm not dealing with that particular issue at the time.
But just because you are a part of a minority group doesn't mean you want to fight all the fights. She wants marriage rights. She isn't giving up and saying "oh well, it sucks to be gay".
So, it's a language thing or are there differences in the rights associated with each? Sorry if I sound like an idiot I have three small boys who have stolen my brain cells.
I think it's wholly unfair to place an entire movement like changing religion's POV (which I agree w LHC on) onto one person's opinion and feelings.
I think if you're a minority group, you need to be speaking for your group. That is just me. Otherwise, you really aren't helping others who struggle with inequality within their church. Seriously, is that opinion helping? No, it's easing people's minds. 'She's fine with it..' Because not everyone knows gay people.
Listen, when it comes down to it, mommy monster can tell me to kiss her ass and she can think/feel what she wants. I know that. But, I feel like it's a responsibility to those who struggle.
Same goes for women. If women are having issues with something, and it is unfair, I will speak out to help them, even if I'm not dealing with that particular issue at the time.
I am like that too, but some women aren't and that is ok. As long as they aren't HURTING the cause, I don't care. Obviously, if, as a woman, you are all "I think women can't be the POTUS because of their PMS issues" then I'l flame you. But if you are just sitting there quietly doing your own thing and not getting involved, it is your right.
I think the people who want one big sweeping gesture, globally, are just as hurtful to the cause, though.
It takes steps to change a society and to change mindsets. Just look at the "youths'" mindsets on this topic versus what it was for us growing up. GSAs in high schools are the norm -- it wasn't so even 10 years ago when I was in high school.
I think poo-poo'ing on gradual progress is shitty. And I think that's what you're doing by conflating marriage RIGHTS and religious ceremonies.
I'm comparing you to how you're viewing Mommy Monster in this.
ETA and that isn't to say I wouldn't jump with glee and sob at a grand sweeping gesture. Heck yes I would!!! But I just try to be more realistic about change like this.
mommymonster, you are handling this discussion with grace. i see your point of view very clearly--there are 2 aspects to the marriage fight, one legal and one religious, and of those two it's the legal fight that you are prioritizing.
fwiw, i, personally, don't think that in any way damages the "cause" of having your rights recognized and respected.
I actually think that change will not happen for this reason alone. I always speak out on behalf of people who want change in that church. Somehow I become the problem because I see an *obvious* problem. Obvious. If you are willing to accept and support the status quo, I understand to a degree, because you have enjoyment in the church. But, don't you dare peg me as ridiculous, when I am one of the only ones on this board with the guts to speak out for a minority group who is largely ignored. Don't you dare.
well, despite the now-pope speaking against it strongly and an majority catholic constituency, argentina legalized gay marriage.
i don't think the one requires the other in any form or fashion. assists? sure. but requires? probably not.
Post by flamingeaux on Mar 14, 2013 12:34:57 GMT -5
honestly, I think the government shouldn't care about marriage I think everyone should have civil unions, and it shouldn't be only if you're romantically involved. I think if two siblings would rather share a household, health insurance and bills and such, they should be able to.
honestly, I think the government shouldn't care about marriage I think everyone should have civil unions, and it shouldn't be only if you're romantically involved. I think if two siblings would rather share a household, health insurance and bills and such, they should be able to.
Are you on drugs or is it me? Because I have no idea what you are saying here...
when I am one of the only ones on this board with the guts to speak out for a minority group who is largely ignored. Don't you dare.
Fuck you. There are any number of amazing women on this board from all walks of life who believe in and speak out for minority groups of all kinds. I get that you're all het up about this topic, and I get that this is your fucking crazy bailiwick, but you need to step back and re-evaluate yourself before you start proclaiming yourself the goddamn savior of ML.
how did i miss that? i should read more than half of a post.
I actually think that change will not happen for this reason alone. I always speak out on behalf of people who want change in that church. Somehow I become the problem because I see an *obvious* problem. Obvious. If you are willing to accept and support the status quo, I understand to a degree, because you have enjoyment in the church. But, don't you dare peg me as ridiculous, when I am one of the only ones on this board with the guts to speak out for a minority group who is largely ignored. Don't you dare.
Scotty, you are taking this way too personally. You are arguing with a gay woman about how you care more about gay rights than she does. Take a step back. Seriously.
honestly, I think the government shouldn't care about marriage I think everyone should have civil unions, and it shouldn't be only if you're romantically involved. I think if two siblings would rather share a household, health insurance and bills and such, they should be able to.
Are you on drugs or is it me? Because I have no idea what you are saying here...
LOL Papie.
I think OP thinks siblings should have civil unions?
I think that's not going to be high on the priority "To Do" list.
Scotty, you are taking this way too personally. You are arguing with a gay woman about how you care more about gay rights than she does. Take a step back. Seriously.
I am absolutely taking this personally. Always will. This affects my friends/family. Just because she is gay and I'm only half-way, doesn't mean she's right and I'm not. Doesn't mean she's wrong. But, I'm not cooling out on my passion on this issue. LOL. It's not happening.
You have twenty-thirty years before I bring this up again. Promise. ?
who are all these mythical MLs who have limited contact with gay people and think anti-gay thoughts? soozy doesn't count.
If you were gay where I grew up you were a freakshow. I'm just saying. There are places.
And, you're forgetting binzy. Hello.
oh, okay. so there's soozy and binzy here on ML. and that's why mommymonster's personal perspective of the life she is leading is harming the cause you think she doesn't care enough about. because soozy and binzy might read it and think, perhaps, that being more strongly in favor of legal than religious marriage is an "out" for haters to be all "look, teh gayz don't care none!"