Are you on drugs or is it me? Because I have no idea what you are saying here...
It's simple. If you, your dog and your bird want to start a household together you can. You just share the bills and insurance.
exactly.
No, I honestly think it's stupid for the government to care what kind of relationship two people have. I just think they should make the benefits that come from being married and make them available to any people willing to take the risks associated with it.
Quibbling over whether someone who IS struggling with the fight daily on a personal level, for her entire life, is fighting hard enough or the way YOU would fight, or the way you think someone else would or should fight, is detrimental to that person and their efforts.
Is it helping the cause? Do you think that some people have limited interaction with gay people and hear something like that and just kind of blanket gay folks with 'Well, I heard this one gal say...'
And, really, I can't with you. I know can't stand me, so... no.
Honestly she's helping more than you are at least where I live. a large part of the reason people I now oppose gay marriage is because they don't want churches being forced to perform them. if they were sure churches could opt out and Gay couples would be OK with getting married in non-religious marriage ceremonies they'd be a lot more open to making it legal.
oh, okay. so there's soozy and binzy here on ML. and that's why mommymonster's personal perspective of the life she is leading is harming the cause you think she doesn't care enough about. because soozy and binzy might read it and think, perhaps, that being more strongly in favor of legal than religious marriage is an "out" for haters to be all "look, teh gayz don't care none!"
I think she cares. I just don't think that the minority involved in movement for change can afford people saying that they don't mind either way. That's all.
i see.
were i the mommymonster, this dismissal of how i feel about my own life would make me enormously upset. i am again impressed with her grace.
I know gay Catholics who would love to marry in their church. And cannot. And, it really freaks me out when gay people speak like this, because it actually doesn't help the cause.
I haven't read the thread but I really have to agree with this. I mean, your opinion is great, but it is not representative of all gay people. Just because you don't mind doesn't mean everyone shouldn't.
Is it helping the cause? Do you think that some people have limited interaction with gay people and hear something like that and just kind of blanket gay folks with 'Well, I heard this one gal say...'
And, really, I can't with you. I know can't stand me, so... no.
Honestly she's helping more than you are at least where I live. a large part of the reason people I now oppose gay marriage is because they don't want churches being forced to perform them. if they were sure churches could opt out and Gay couples would be OK with getting married in non-religious marriage ceremonies they'd be a lot more open to making it legal.
This makes no sense. Why would churches be forced to perform a marriage? How is it different from them saying "You can only get married here if you are a baptized christian" (what my church says)?
Honestly she's helping more than you are at least where I live. a large part of the reason people I now oppose gay marriage is because they don't want churches being forced to perform them. if they were sure churches could opt out and Gay couples would be OK with getting married in non-religious marriage ceremonies they'd be a lot more open to making it legal.
This makes no sense. Why would churches be forced to perform a marriage? How is it different from them saying "You can only get married here if you are a baptized christian" (what my church says)?
I think it's a load of BS but try convincing some of the people I know of that.
Honestly she's helping more than you are at least where I live. a large part of the reason people I now oppose gay marriage is because they don't want churches being forced to perform them. if they were sure churches could opt out and Gay couples would be OK with getting married in non-religious marriage ceremonies they'd be a lot more open to making it legal.
This makes no sense. Why would churches be forced to perform a marriage? How is it different from them saying "You can only get married here if you are a baptized christian" (what my church says)?
It makes perfect sense to me.
People are protective of their church and ideals and the guberment changing that.
Perfect sense as in I get what Hope is saying. Not that I agree with the ideal.
I know gay Catholics who would love to marry in their church. And cannot. And, it really freaks me out when gay people speak like this, because it actually doesn't help the cause.
I haven't read the thread but I really have to agree with this. I mean, your opinion is great, but it is not representative of all gay people. Just because you don't mind doesn't mean everyone shouldn't.
But that's what mommymonster said. That some gay people care, but she doesn't, she just really wants legal marriage rights.
I haven't read the thread but I really have to agree with this. I mean, your opinion is great, but it is not representative of all gay people. Just because you don't mind doesn't mean everyone shouldn't.
What the fuck? So is it invalid? Mommymonster has to do a poll of all of her "kind" before she can voice an opinion on her own goddamn life?
Not at all. Of course it's valid. But, so is a gay Catholic's, who yearns to be married in the Church. I would liken this to a black person saying they don't mind when someone uses the N word, or that they use it themselves for a different meaning. That doesn't mean it's ok (or not ok). It's just their opinion. She can of course voice her opinion.
This makes no sense. Why would churches be forced to perform a marriage? How is it different from them saying "You can only get married here if you are a baptized christian" (what my church says)?
It's a false argument, papie, made by people who, first of all, cannot FATHOM a marriage not being blessed by a religious body, and, second of all, are grasping at straws to defend their bullshit position.
I guess I just live in a very liberal area, because I have never heard that argument...
were i the mommymonster, this dismissal of how i feel about my own life would make me enormously upset. i am again impressed with her grace.
Hm, I'm more impressed by the fact that you, and others, are overlooking the fact that her voice could be used in the argument that Catholicism should consider allowing gay marriage. I wouldn't appreciate someone disagreeing with me, at all, but I could see that fact.
we're not "overlooking" anything. we disagree. you are falling into a trap you have created for yourself, whereby only those who see things exactly as you do are getting it. i fully get your perspective. i grok it, if you want to go old-school sci fi style. i disagree the the voice of A woman talking about HER life in a closed-ish internet community will undermine the cause of gay rights as a whole, and i disagree with the perspective that to do gay rights "right" you have to care as deeply about a church's position as you do about a government's. i, again, point to the example of argentina, a country where the government's view of gay marriage appears to run in direct contravention of the view of the church of the majority of its population.
FWIW, I am from non-liberal town. As Republican, there-are-so-many-white-people-where-are-the-black-people as you can get. If you are fortunate enough to live in a liberal area, I could see how you'd view this as a non-issue.
Someone like mommymonster would be THE gay person where I live now, and where I'm from. Sorry.
So, one opinion is like the token gay person has spoken. It's sad. But, those places exist. There are so many, do not underestimate how many. It's... depressing, actually.
I live in an area like this, so I get you there. But, I don't think it really matters to those people what the "token gay person" says. They are going to believe what they believe whether or not they have a gay person's opinion to back them up. It sucks, and it's unfair, but that doesn't mean that one gay person is obligated to take up the fight alone.
If you were gay where I grew up you were a freakshow. I'm just saying. There are places.
And, you're forgetting binzy. Hello.
oh, okay. so there's soozy and binzy here on ML. and that's why mommymonster's personal perspective of the life she is leading is harming the cause you think she doesn't care enough about. because soozy and binzy might read it and think, perhaps, that being more strongly in favor of legal than religious marriage is an "out" for haters to be all "look, teh gayz don't care none!"
Guys - listen - I just want to say thanks for thinking of me. Nice to know I've had an impact.
I live in an area like this, so I get you there. But, I don't think it really matters to those people what the "token gay person" says. They are going to believe what they believe whether or not they have a gay person's opinion to back them up. It sucks, and it's unfair, but that doesn't mean that one gay person is obligated to take up the fight alone.
So, you're stating that they are impossible to change. I hope not, as the topic du jour is changing an ages-old church's viewpoint on gay marriage. I always have hope.
For some, yes, they will probably never change. Like you, I have hope that some people will over time, but I sadly expect it will take a long time to get there.
But, I don't have any gay friends so maybe my opinion isn't valid.
It is the Catholic church's right to not allow same sex marriage. But it is also my right as someone who was raised Catholic to disagree enough with them that I have left the church because of this & other issues. Do I expect the Catholic church to start officiating SSM? No. But around here @ least, in liberal New England, they are very vocally campaigning against SSM. It wouldn't bother me so much if they just left well enough alone & said "we're against this, but won't harp on it incessantly."
... All I want as a gay woman is to be able marry the person I love and have the same legal rights as married straight couples. I just want me son to know that his family is as normal as other families.
All I want as a straight woman is for you to have the rights and responsibilities I already have by default, too. I wish the "no gayz allowed in my club" group would understand that a couple, any couple, in a solid, stable relationship will only benefit society as a whole.
My mom and her partner of then 26 years got married in 2010 in a former Church of Christ in VT. It was so funny to me because a modern CoC in my area (LA) would have probably crumbled at the foundation if this had even been suggested. The people in VT acted as if it's NBD to them though. In my church (United Methodist), gays are allowed to be preachers, so taking it a step further and allowing marriages there (of course under state law) wouldn't be that big of a deal culturally within that denomination but the outside world here in Louisiana would never allow that. Still, I agree that it really doesn't matter if it's in a church, it's just that it can happen period under the law. We spent gobs of money flying the whole family from LA to VT to be there and that is abhorrent to me.
FWIW, I am from non-liberal town. As Republican, there-are-so-many-white-people-where-are-the-black-people as you can get. If you are fortunate enough to live in a liberal area, I could see how you'd view this as a non-issue.
Someone like mommymonster would be THE gay person where I live now, and where I'm from. Sorry. Meaning, I feel that every voice counts. Doesn't make her a bad person. And, any implication otherwise isn't true.
So, one opinion is like the token gay person has spoken. It's sad. But, those places exist. There are so many, do not underestimate how many. It's... depressing, actually.
woah. that's a lot of pressure to put on one person/minority to be the VOICE for a certain issue.
woah. that's a lot of pressure to put on one person/minority to be the VOICE for a certain issue.
I'm doing that, AT ALL.. I was making the point that opinions in numbers matter. Everyone, they add up. I wasn't asking her to be the spokesperson, that job is already filled by me, obviously. tianftloveyourkitchenbtw
yes but you telling her that her opinion hurts the cause put pressure on her. mommymonster, like everyone else, wants to live her life. I think it's unfair that because she's gay her voicing her opinion on a certain topic "is hurting the cause"
I have all the books I could need, and what more could I need than books? I shall only engage in commerce if books are the coin. -- Catherynne M. Valente
I feel like I could be looked at to spread many messages, and told I'm not helping many causes. But in the real world, I'm only going to fight for the ones I feel like fighting for. it's really that simple. who fucking cares?
Post by sparkythelawyer on Mar 14, 2013 15:00:48 GMT -5
Scotty, I love how you love and fight for every creature. It is the best tool in your whole toolbox. You have a giant heart, and it shows.
And passion is great. But it is also important to not get so caught up in your passion that your tool becomes a weapon and that weapon hurts what you were trying to help.