Um, holy hell.

[Deleted]

Gross.

[Deleted]

Apr 3, 2013 13:47:42 GMT -5 Lucy Honeychurch said:

I can almost unequivocally state that these boys were likely not a product of society, but a product of unspeakable parenting.

i agree with you entirely.

i think what society is "responsible" for w/r/t this incident and ones like it is the promotion of the notion as rape as "just another" thing that happens, and the general notion of male sexuality as important and female sexuality and selfhood as expendable.  they were evil/evilly raised, but the form of the outlet they chose for that evil is shaped in part by what society has promoted.  like, in 1150 they'd have gone out and gutted some nonbelievers instead.

[pinkeggs]

Apr 3, 2013 14:07:29 GMT -5 Lucy Honeychurch said:

Apr 3, 2013 14:06:45 GMT -5 pinkeggs said:

I do agree with this, but it doesn't make me feel any better. There will ALWAYS be shitty parents, and my daughters will be out there with their kids.

So will peoples' sons.  ALL kids are vulnerable here, not just girls.

I was actually thinking that the worst is girls on girls. That's why I said my daughters will be out there with their 'KIDS', not 'SONS'. I am not demonizing little boys here.

[pinkeggs]

Yeah, boys get a bad rap, but how often do you hear of a girl and her friends beating the shit out of (or killing) another girl for sleeping with/dating the wrong guy? Relatively often. Having kids is scary, period.

[snipsnsnails]

Apr 3, 2013 14:17:14 GMT -5 cville said:

Apr 3, 2013 13:47:42 GMT -5 Lucy Honeychurch said:

I can almost unequivocally state that these boys were likely not a product of society, but a product of unspeakable parenting.

i agree with you entirely.

i think what society is "responsible" for w/r/t this incident and ones like it is the promotion of the notion as rape as "just another" thing that happens, and the general notion of male sexuality as important and female sexuality and selfhood as expendable.  they were evil/evilly raised, but the form of the outlet they chose for that evil is shaped in part by what society has promoted.  like, in 1150 they'd have gone out and gutted some nonbelievers instead.

Agreed, it's everything working in tandem, like the atrocious monstrosity of a machine that it is. Blame can't be pinned on any one thing - that just serves to try and help us sleep better at night.

[papie]

I wish I could unread that. 

[snipsnsnails]

Apr 3, 2013 14:22:40 GMT -5 Lucy Honeychurch said:

Apr 3, 2013 14:20:30 GMT -5 snipsnsnails said:

Agreed, it's everything working in tandem, like the atrocious monstrosity of a machine that it is. Blame can't be pinned on any one thing - that just serves to try and help us sleep better at night.

I strongly disagree.  Society as a whole only shapes the method of the madness, not the madness itself.

As cville said, there has always been an outlet of sorts for crazy -- burning nonbelievers, raping the neighbors' goats, whatever.

Ah. I see, then yes, we'll have to disagree. Inasmuch as our culture has always been misogynistic, I do think that our current culture itself is far too pervasive in its ability to have people exposed to a far greater magnitude of cruelty through sexual violence and degradation. It existed before, but we're exposed to it even more, imo, in more insidious ways.

[poppyseed]

I don't think it's a boys vs. girls thing, and I didn't mean to imply that if I did.

[Deleted]

I think you're both talking about the rape culture.

But I'm with Cville. If it wasn't rape culture, for the "right" (wrong) minds, it would be something else. That is what their minds stuck to.

I do agree there are societal things that need to change. But I think it's damning to continually blame society for things like this. To me, that's more a direct link to when people take videos of violence instead of trying to stop it -- or even just walking away. That is a more societal thing.

It also leaves too much wiggle room for those parents to walk off.

[Deleted]

Also I am focusing more on the little boy who told his teacher about the knife (a relatively brave thing to do!). I always focus on those aspects of the story when I can. Can't deal with a doom and gloom view of the world

[poppyseed]

Apr 3, 2013 14:29:45 GMT -5 ninjabridemom said:

I think you're both talking about the rape culture.

But I'm with Cville. If it wasn't rape culture, for the "right" (wrong) minds, it would be something else. That is what their minds stuck to.

I do agree there are societal things that need to change. But I think it's damning to continually blame society for things like this. To me, that's more a direct link to when people take videos of violence instead of trying to stop it -- or even just walking away. That is a more societal thing.

It also leaves too much wiggle room for those parents to walk off.

Agreed.  To me, it's sort of equivalent to people blaming teachers for students' poor performance.  Good values need to be reinforced at home.

[snipsnsnails]

Oh see, I see this huge behemoth of dehumanizing culture that we exist in right now and the access we have to communally experience cruelty and I know that their dysfunction is strengthened by so many things. I don't think anyone wants to give a pass to the parents, but i also know that it;s nearly impossible to ever extricate them from the experiences they exist within on a larger scale, too.

[snipsnsnails]

Ah, see, we just had this argument over easter for 3 hours. That home and those parents are also a product of that within which they are raised. This isn't a pass-it's a reality. And I think we're all better off in not blaming any one thing. That only helps our logical, rational minds try to cobble sense out of things that make no sense. But we do have to acknowledge that lots of things come together to create one identity.

[snipsnsnails]

I don't think we're going to come to a meeting of the minds here, but I'd like to think we're closer than we think. Somewhere we have to acknowledge the role culture is playing in shaping those parent's ability (and inability) to parent. Again, not a pass, a reality. One that can't be solved within the status quo. I said a few days ago that crappy parenting, among other things, is just a symptom of the sickness, not the sickness itself. I think the sickness itself is the rush to dehumanize men and (especially) women and completely eradicate any sort of compassionate action in our current culture.

[Deleted]

Apr 3, 2013 14:07:29 GMT -5 Lucy Honeychurch said:

Apr 3, 2013 14:06:45 GMT -5 pinkeggs said:

I do agree with this, but it doesn't make me feel any better. There will ALWAYS be shitty parents, and my daughters will be out there with their kids.

So will peoples' sons.  ALL kids are vulnerable here, not just girls.

Just like the kids who beat that 12 year boy to death recently, and only got a 3 day suspension or something. Unbelievable.

[snipsnsnails]

The we'll have to agree to disagree. I do appreciate the thoughts and will continue to think on them!

[karmasabiotch]

I can't even read it.

[poppyseed]

Apr 3, 2013 14:52:20 GMT -5 snipsnsnails said:

I don't think we're going to come to a meeting of the minds here, but I'd like to think we're closer than we think. Somewhere we have to acknowledge the role culture is playing in shaping those parent's ability (and inability) to parent. Again, not a pass, a reality. One that can't be solved within the status quo. I said a few days ago that crappy parenting, among other things, is just a symptom of the sickness, not the sickness itself. I think the sickness itself is the rush to dehumanize men and (especially) women and completely eradicate any sort of compassionate action in our current culture.

I think I understand what you're saying.  That our culture and society is what shapes parents to, well, be parents.  And that as parents, we learn what is "right" and "wrong", and teach our children as such.  I can get behind that.

But, at what point do parents just know what to do?  I mean, it should be a no-brainer to say "Hey Johnny, we don't rape and murder girls." or "Hey, Sally, bullying other people to the point where they harm themselves is wrong."  I don't think it's completely society's responsibility to whip parents into shape. 

[Deleted]

The scariest part in all of this is that kids at that age a) get that angry, b) get revengeful, c) have the forethought to strategically plan this, c) know how to get weapons and sneak them past adults, and d) get minutes/hours away from carrying this out. WTF?!

[azurely]

Omg.

I work with troubled kids, so this might be flameful, but I honestly believe there are some people who cannot be rehabilitated. I can't go into much detail (obviously), but I have 14-15 year olds who have raped, murdered, assaulted, brought a gun to school, set a gas station on fire, etc. Most are not remorseful, and take no responsibility for their actions. As a teenager, you get sent somewhere to be rehabilitated, but once they hit 18-19, hello prison or mental institution.

Their lack of skills and respect for society can almost always be traced back to their parents/home life, since most of them are the same way. And the cycle only continues, since they end up having multiple kids in their teens, yet have zero parenting skills so their kids end up just like them.

[mamasaurus]

Holy shit.

I feel really sorry for their mothers.

[mamasaurus]

Oh, look. This is what the "normal" kids are doing when they get older. No, no societal problems here.

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