RE ethical issue

[geneg]

Details removed for privacy purposes...  

If you knew something about a house that might result in a huge repair bill (quotes were $20,000 or more, maybe upwards of $40,000+) to the new owners, would you find a way to let them know?  Or just butt out?

[cjeanette]

Won't it come up in inspection?

[Susie]

How did YOU find out?

Also, what does the number of bedrooms have to do with the septic field?

[AAM2012]

Uh yeah how do you know and wouldn't you find this on an inspection. I'm thinking if you interfere with the selling of the home you could be held liable (aka lawsuit).

[rubytue]

May 3, 2013 18:22:56 GMT -5 Susie said:

How did YOU find out?

Also, what does the number of bedrooms have to do with the septic field?

septic systems are sized on bedrooms. Based on the water usage expected from the number of people who would live in that number of bedrooms. In our county, it's assumed 2 people per bedroom. So 4 bedroom house is up to 8 people. Bathrooms, surprisingly, don't matter (found that our when we added a bath to our 4 bd 2 bath house).

I would want to know. But does the septic need to be redone period, or only to support 5 bedrooms? Because in the second case, you can just take our a closet and make it a den and you probably will be good. The first case should come up on any inspection.

[Susie]

May 3, 2013 18:33:00 GMT -5 rubytue said:

May 3, 2013 18:22:56 GMT -5 Susie said:

How did YOU find out?

Also, what does the number of bedrooms have to do with the septic field?

septic systems are sized on bedrooms. Based on the water usage expected from the number of people who would live in that number of bedrooms. In our county, it's assumed 2 people per bedroom. So 4 bedroom house is up to 8 people. Bathrooms, surprisingly, don't matter (found that our when we added a bath to our 4 bd 2 bath house).

I would want to know. But does the septic need to be redone period, or only to support 5 bedrooms? Because in the second case, you can just take our a closet and make it a den and you probably will be good. The first case should come up on any inspection.

I guess it makes sense... but that doesn't seem like nearly as big a deal as OP made it sound.  Either it's going to come up in the buyers' inspection and/or mortgage approval process, and everyone will find out before closing, or it won't, and they'll buy a house that can, in theory, sleep more people than the septic tank is ideally designed to max out at.  There probably won't be 10 people (or even 8) living in that 4 bedroom house anyway so I'm not sure how much of a "real" issue it is.  It definitely doesn't sound like a $20k-40k repair immediately after closing.

If I were buying a house with septic instead of sewer (we looked at a few) I would investigate the hell out of its condition/have it appropriately inspected before buying.  If these buyers don't... eh.  It might not be sterling ethics on the part of the REA/sellers, but I would not stick my neck out over it.  You have no duty to disclose re: this property, OP.

[Deleted]

I don't see the big deal. It's not like the buyers are going to die or be in danger if they don't know. You are no longer involved in this situation, so there is no reason for you to say anything or spend any time worrying about the buyers.

[expatpumpkin]

Isn't this only a real issue if all five bedrooms are filled by the new family? What are the chances that a family of 10 is going to move in and overburden the septic system? If it's your typical family of 4-5 - that would only really use 3-4 bedrooms total - isn't this a non-issue?

[niq]

I'll answer the question with another question: Is this the kind of thing that has to be on the seller disclosure form?

[agnes]

May 3, 2013 19:00:55 GMT -5 Susie said:

May 3, 2013 18:33:00 GMT -5 rubytue said:

septic systems are sized on bedrooms. Based on the water usage expected from the number of people who would live in that number of bedrooms. In our county, it's assumed 2 people per bedroom. So 4 bedroom house is up to 8 people. Bathrooms, surprisingly, don't matter (found that our when we added a bath to our 4 bd 2 bath house).

I would want to know. But does the septic need to be redone period, or only to support 5 bedrooms? Because in the second case, you can just take our a closet and make it a den and you probably will be good. The first case should come up on any inspection.

I guess it makes sense... but that doesn't seem like nearly as big a deal as OP made it sound.  Either it's going to come up in the buyers' inspection and/or mortgage approval process, and everyone will find out before closing, or it won't, and they'll buy a house that can, in theory, sleep more people than the septic tank is ideally designed to max out at.  There probably won't be 10 people (or even 8) living in that 4 bedroom house anyway so I'm not sure how much of a "real" issue it is.  It definitely doesn't sound like a $20k-40k repair immediately after closing.

If I were buying a house with septic instead of sewer (we looked at a few) I would investigate the hell out of its condition/have it appropriately inspected before buying.  If these buyers don't... eh.  It might not be sterling ethics on the part of the REA/sellers, but I would not stick my neck out over it.  You have no duty to disclose re: this property, OP.

The bolded is actually pretty common in my area.  But we don't have septic systems normally.   

In the past, I've seen 3 beds in a garage ontop of the multiple beds in each bedroom. I even had a co-worker (who made very decent money) with 5 children in a ONE bedroom apartment.  I was like WUT? when I found out. 

[geneg]

May 3, 2013 18:33:00 GMT -5 rubytue said:

May 3, 2013 18:22:56 GMT -5 Susie said:

How did YOU find out?

Also, what does the number of bedrooms have to do with the septic field?

septic systems are sized on bedrooms. Based on the water usage expected from the number of people who would live in that number of bedrooms. In our county, it's assumed 2 people per bedroom. So 4 bedroom house is up to 8 people. Bathrooms, surprisingly, don't matter (found that our when we added a bath to our 4 bd 2 bath house).

I would want to know. But does the septic need to be redone period, or only to support 5 bedrooms? Because in the second case, you can just take our a closet and make it a den and you probably will be good. The first case should come up on any inspection.

I found out because I used to have a septic system and we had issues with it.  So investigate a home's history before I offer.  It's a matter of public record, but you have to know where to look.   When we looked at the house in question, we were shocked to find out about the problem.  If any permitted work is done in the house (electrical, plumbing, new deck, pool, whatever), the county runs a "permit check" and will discover the septic system is out of compliance and won't grant any permits until it is remedied - we checked.  The current owners never found out on their inspection either (obviously). 

The septic system leach field needs to be done periodically, but that is only about $8-10K.  And it only needs to be done when things break down.  Our previous home's leach field was almost fifty years old before it failed.  So they can last a while.  No idea of this one's condition.

An inspection won't cover the septic system unless you get a specific septic inspection.  And even then, the buyers might not find out (some just say "yes, in working order" and nothing more).  And I would be hella pissed if I found out AND knew that the sellers and their agent knew and didn't disclose.  

ETA:  I bolded the reason this is a big deal.  

[Deleted]

If I were going to do anything, and I'm not saying I would, but if I was I would look into reporting the selling agent's failure to disclose this issue to your state's real estate commission or whatever other licensing board there is. From what I am reading the selling agent is acting unethically here and that is not cool.

BIG HUGE DISCLAIMER: I know nothing about real estate law nor do I know anything about this particular county law. IF I was going to make a report I would want to be certain that the selling agent actually is in violation of the state's ethical guidelines/licensing requirements. I would say nothing to the buyers. And honestly I probably wouldn't say anything anyway because I'm not sure that the amount of research I would have to do to make sure I was making a valid report while not getting myself into any legal trouble over it would be worth my time.

[geneg]

May 3, 2013 19:14:28 GMT -5 niq said:

I'll answer the question with another question: Is this the kind of thing that has to be on the seller disclosure form?

Yes, it is.  They didn't disclose because they didn't know (so they told us when we brought it up).  And they are not planning to disclose to the buyers (per the REA:  "I did my due diligence").

I'm not going to say anything.  But I hate knowing that the buyers don't know and they sellers won't tell them.

[msmerymac]

Can the buyers sue them for non-disclosure?

I feel like this is something that won't come up. It's not like their electrical wiring is a fire hazard. Like others said, the septic will probably easily support their family. So I don't know. If you had bought the house would you have actually redone a working septic system?

[Deleted]

Maybe their inspector/appraiser doesn't agree with your opinion?

I'd stay out of it.

[soozy87]

We had a similar issue with our new home. The sellers advertised it as a 4 bedroom home. The septic inspector said that it was only set up to be a 3 bedroom. Our realtor said that they could do that, but it was kind of shady and if we ever were to sell the home it would have to be sold as a 3 bedroom unless we upgrade the septic. If they know about it they need to disclose it. There are clearly 4 bedrooms in our home, all on the same level, all with closets, etc. What they are doing is pretty shady. Our sellers were shady, but at least we knew what we were getting into before we bought the house.

[my3boyz]

I haven't read all of the replies but I can say that the sellers and seller's agent are legally obligated to disclose at this point. If the new buyers ever find out why your deal fell through they can sue for damages. They were fine until your inspection because it wasn't done on their watch but once they find out it has to be disclosed.

At this point I wouldn't do anything. Your agent is right to stay out of it. It should come up in their septic inspection, which is how I assume you found out about it. If they find out later they would probably have recourse against the inspector as well, if he doesn't discover it. At the end of the day it probably isn't a big deal, because like others have said there most likely won't be that many people living there. I would still want to know and have it fixed for resale purposes.

[auntie]

May 3, 2013 18:22:56 GMT -5 Susie said:

How did YOU find out?

Also, what does the number of bedrooms have to do with the septic field?

Bedrooms dictate how many people would be living in a house potentially- which translates to flushes, showers and loads of laundry.

There's a school in our district that has a septic system which caps off its class-sizes at 24 (compared to 32 for 4th-12th elsewhere)  and has their lunches prepared elsewhere and delivered.

[Deleted]

I don't know what state you are in but in Mass you have to get a septic report before you can transfer title. I'd be surprised if other states didn't have something similar.

[rubytue]

May 5, 2013 8:59:03 GMT -5 @septimus said:

I don't know what state you are in but in Mass you have to get a septic report before you can transfer title. I'd be surprised if other states didn't have something similar.

Some states yes, but others don't have many requirements at all.  Tennessee is one.  My dad's county doesn't do much of anything with septics, although in the past 3 years they have started requiring permits.  Which is how my dad's lake house has a vacation home septic for 2 bedrooms and has 6 bedrooms.  I've looked at houses in West Virginia that still had cesspools or, my favorite "no sewer or septic system."  You'd be surprised.

[imojoebunny]

They should get a septic report when they buy. I recently bought a house, it had septic for two bedrooms + a loft. Adequate for 6 people to live there full time, which we do not. I imagine many people buying houses are not double occupancy on all rooms.

Also, the county description of the property should give them a clue. I am finishing the basement, adding 600 square feet, but it doesn't change the number of bedrooms or the septic field.

Lying on a sellers disclosure is never a great idea IMO, but unless they are running a foster care program, the impact might very well be nil, and the info is readily accessible most places, I would think.