PCER Clothing topic! "Ethnic" fashion.

[wawa]

I post enough "dress me" off topic nonsense that I thought an actually PCER clothing topic was a good idea.

this blog post from Sal at AlreadyPretty is what got me thinking about it:
www.alreadypretty.com/2012/06/ethnic-ethics.html

summary - Sal posts up an old picture of her in a (edit based on comments in sal's post) kurta. To her it was just a cool tunic top she found at a thrift store, but after some research when she ran across similar tops at another store she learned it was a culturally significant item of clothing and decided to stop wearing it.

excerpt:

Garments and accessories are often deemed “ethnic” as a selling point, and “tribal” patterns always seem to trend for spring and summer. In many cases, the fashion version of “ethnic” means “non-Western, non-Caucasian, and therefore exotic.” In this context, these descriptors can be insulting, subtly racist, and may encourage cultural appropriation. Of course, the fashion world is guilty of near constant cultural appropriation and it can become difficult to discern which items are merely influenced by the aesthetics of certain cultures and which items are mass-marketed ripoffs of culturally significant garments. So, as a rule, I avoid purchasing and wearing anything that’s specifically billed as “ethnic.” The lines blur a bit with something like the thrifted shalwar kameez, but even minus the marketing push from the fashion world, I feel uncomfortable wearing just about any garment that hails from a culture about which I know so little and to which I have no personal connection.

Now, I don’t think that cultures should segregate by dress and never cross-pollinate. I don’t think that only Irish people should get to wear Claddagh rings or that only Icelanders should get to wear patterned wool sweaters. And I don’t think that the leather wrap belts I wear are an insult to the traditional Japanese obis that inspired their design. But I do think that Americans are considerably more detached and casual about clothing than many other cultures, and often accept any interesting or cursory explanation of cultural significance as sufficient without investigating for ourselves. We can be quick to glom onto anything that is made cool and alluring by its foreignness, and adopt versions of it into our wardrobes without understanding its origins. To me, it seems unwise to wear garments and accessories that hail from other cultures without understanding the potential religious, historic, and cultural implications they may be invoking.

Thoughts?

I think this topic touches on everything from the ill-advised "african queen" tropes that show up in a editorials in all the fashion mags with clockwork frequency to random white girl wearing a full-on kimono.

Are "tribal" prints ok, but a german-irish dude in Ohio wearing a Dashiki is eyeroll worthy? (or full on racist? just insensitive? something between? none of the above?)

My thoughts on the matter are only partially formed. I know that I love LOVE sari's, but I'd never wear one unless I was participating in an indian cultural event of some sort (like involved in a wedding) because I'd feel like a poser. But I'd happily wear a pretty sundress in a similar fabric, and I don't think that crosses any lines. I know that some of those previously mentioned fashion mag editorials make me feel squicky. But beyond that I'm not sure what's ok and what isn't.

Does the culture from which the item has been borrowed matter? Do you need to have some connection for it to be ok? Or just mindful respect? Or does it just not matter and I am totally overthinking this?

[mominatrix]

fascinating.

I buy a lot of the kids' clothes at thrift stores, and don't specifically avoid stuff that's ”ethnic”. The girl has worn several different pieces, including a Chinese floral silk shirt and pants set when she was a toddler. Both have worn one of those Guatemalan sweaters with the llamas etc on them.

Heck, last night we had an event and she wore an Indian style tunic (silk with embroidered flowers and sequined bits, knee length but split up the sides)

I wouldn't put them in anything clearly religious, but this kind of stuff I'm okay with...

I guess my line is that if it's something sold to tourists, it's not ”cultural appropriation”.

...off to read blog post.

Sent from my HTC Glacier using ProBoards... So excuse any wonky autocorrect.

[meshaliuknits]

I really, really want to wear a sari. They're so gorgeous. I'm hoping I can during the diversity fair fashion show at work this year.

That particular item of clothing, I didn't know what it was called, but I did immediately recognize that it is Indian/Pakastani/Nepali-ish. It's usually sitting in the display windows next to the saris. They're lovely. If I saw a white woman wearing it I would probably assume she was of Indian descent. But, at the end of the day, if you're wearing it respectfully, go on with your bad self.

[msmerymac]

I don't think someone wearing a kimono would be intentionally racist. Why would you be wearing it, then? To prove you wear it better than Japanese people? Insensitive, possibly. I guess it depends on the context. If you have no connection to the Middle East and you think wearing a hijab is fashionable, that's kind of idiotic. It's a religious item that is not of your culture or religion, ergo you are not doing it right. If you've spent a lot of time in India and bought an authentic sari, that's not going to surprise me.

I have a few friends who are caucasian but in relationships or married to Indian men. They own saris. One had a second, Indian wedding ceremony where she wore a sari. Obviously it isn't her culture and she's never even been to India, but she has a connection to it and it makes sense for her to have one, IMO.

This reminds me of the Halloween costume thread. Sexy geisha girl costume and that kind of thing. I think my response was something like: authentic dirndl if you have a connection to German culture = cool; ridiculous fake costume for a culture you have no connection to = insensitive and obnoxious.

[Deleted]

There are two issues here.

One, the appropriateness of the event. Sure, wear a kimono if you like but you have to know you can't be wearing that to work or to the mall. At that point, it's a costume, not an article of clothing.

Two, the appropriateness of the garment itself. I don't take issue with any ethnic clothing unless it's associated with a religion or makes a statement about who you are/aren't. Like wearing a nun's habit if you aren't a nun, a monk's robes, the hijab, etc.

[debatethis]

I understand she has made that choice out of deference and respect to other cultures but I sorta think she's taking it a bit far. My Indian coworkers have brought me several of those tunic-style garments as gifts when they've returned from India and I love them and wear them regularly.

[thejackpot]

I think only wear things that you feel comfy in and you don't feel like it is a costume. While I love many things from saris to dashikis I would feel like a fool so I like them from afar.

[tacokick]

A kurta and jeans is like the casual wear of India. Worn by pretty much everyone everyday. It is like wearing a button down shirt or a t-shirt.

I get what she is trying to say but her lecture seems odd/is undermined when she isn't familiar at all with the clothing (she didn't even know what it was called!) that caused all this sudden introspection and need to share. I think she could have written the post without dragging herself into it.

[fernane]

I own several pieces of clothing from various countries I've spent any significant amount of time in. I enjoy taking beautiful pieces to wear. For example, Myanmar has beautiful floor length, wrap skirts that women typically wear there. I love them. They are comfortable and practical anywhere else, so I wear them. Same for Sri Lanka. Beautiful fabric wrap skirts that can be practically many other places. I do have a Sari as my parents live in India, but I would never wear it unless I was going to a cultural specific function.
I have some Nigerian moumous that are also quite comfy but only wear them to Lounge around the house from time to time.
I wouldnt have any negative thoughts toward anyone else that chooses to wear cultural clothes, however. A lot of times I think it represents an appreciation or some kind of connection to the culture.

[ringstrue]

I don't agree with deliberately not wearing clothing that is decidedly not your culture n' heritage just because its not *you*, but I do agree that I get annoyed with non-Caucasian everything being labeled "ethnic". Its just a term thing for me. Choose a better catch-all or, you know, don't use catch-alls.

[wawa]

Jun 14, 2012 13:31:16 GMT -5 @habbsies said:

There are two issues here.

One, the appropriateness of the event. Sure, wear a kimono if you like but you have to know you can't be wearing that to work or to the mall. At that point, it's a costume, not an article of clothing.

Two, the appropriateness of the garment itself. I don't take issue with any ethnic clothing unless it's associated with a religion or makes a statement about who you are/aren't. Like wearing a nun's habit if you aren't a nun, a monk's robes, the hijab, etc.

So I could see picking up some item of clothing at a thrift store or the like and not realizing it had any sort of significance. How much responsibility is there to do some basic googling before you throw on your cool new garmet if you suspect/know it's traditional for another culture, but don't know anything about what the traditional use IS?

To clarify - I'm asking where the "side-eye line" is.

[wawa]

Jun 15, 2012 8:29:11 GMT -5 @littlemoxie said:

Jun 15, 2012 8:17:44 GMT -5 wawa said:

So I could see picking up some item of clothing at a thrift store or the like and not realizing it had any sort of significance. How much responsibility is there to do some basic googling before you throw on your cool new garmet if you suspect/know it's traditional for another culture, but don't know anything about what the traditional use IS?

To clarify - I'm asking where the "side-eye line" is.

This is a dumb question, but if you pick up something and have no idea what it's called, do you just google "ethnic long shirt" until you find what it is you have? I think that is a lot to go through just because you have suspicions about your not-from-a-Caucasian-country-that-I-know clothing.

yes? I dunno. I never really thought that much about it until I read that post and then brought it up here.

But I could see picking something up at a store, knowing that it's something I've seen on people with heavily accented english (whether that's hungarian or ethiopian) and wearing it - but feeling like a total ass when somebody informs me that it's a special shirt for some holiday. Or traditionally for men. Or menstruating teen girls. Or whatever.

Of course I'd feel like an ass. But I'd feel like less of an ass if it was a traditional hungarian thing because my grandmother was hungarian. ya know?

[wawa]

Jun 15, 2012 9:03:11 GMT -5 @littlemoxie said:

Jun 15, 2012 8:45:02 GMT -5 wawa said:

yes? I dunno. I never really thought that much about it until I read that post and then brought it up here.

But I could see picking something up at a store, knowing that it's something I've seen on people with heavily accented english (whether that's hungarian or ethiopian) and wearing it - but feeling like a total ass when somebody informs me that it's a special shirt for some holiday. Or traditionally for men. Or menstruating teen girls. Or whatever.

Of course I'd feel like an ass. But I'd feel like less of an ass if it was a traditional hungarian thing because my grandmother was hungarian. ya know?

I get feeling like an ass once it's pointed out. I mean, if I was using a word incorrectly and someone pointed it out I'd feel like an ass, too. But for some reason, this came off to me as the author preaching that we need to research anything that looks slightly different out there. Which I think is going a bit far.

I see your point about your Hungarian grandma, but if you still had no idea what it was for, but when someone told you it was Hungarian (therefore you just got lucky), would you really feel much better?

Also, this reminded me of the time I went to a Turkmen birthday party. An old guy from work got us to the dance floor and I started following his moves. Turned out that dancing was only for men. Ooops.

Re: hypothetical hungarian garment: Grandma might not alleviate my initial assy feelings much - but I'd be much more likely to continue wearing the item (depending on the significance) since I have a legit connection to the culture beyond "I think the shirt is pretty."

I can see how the original blog post could come off a bit extreme. I've been reading Sal's blog for a while, and I give her a lot of leeway in terms of preachiness. She's just very very earnest about fashion and it's implications - it can come off wrong in isolation. I truly don't think she's saying that everybody needs to be hypervigilant about researching their clothing choices, just that she's kinda hung up it and thinks it's at least important enough to devote a blog post to.

As for the dancing, I'd probably sink through the floor from shame. Good for you for trying it out though I guess!

[Deleted]

Honestly, I'm pretty sure clothing with such implications are probably rare. So if you don't know when you pick it up in a thrift store, it's probably not that important. Or maybe I'm just a lazy heifer who doesn't care to search lol.

Although, I'm thinking if it's that important, you won't be finding it in a thrift shop, kwim?

I also think if it was that important, it wouldn't be that obscure.

[mominatrix]

Jun 15, 2012 10:07:38 GMT -5 @habbsies said:

Although, I'm thinking if it's that important, you won't be finding it in a thrift shop, kwim?

this is why I'm pretty OK with dressing the kids in all kinds of "ethnic" stuff I find at the thrift... if it's important, it probably wouldn't have been donated to the value village to be sold for $3.

[wawa]

Jun 15, 2012 12:11:15 GMT -5 @littlemoxie said:

Jun 15, 2012 10:07:38 GMT -5 @habbsies said:

Honestly, I'm pretty sure clothing with such implications are probably rare. So if you don't know when you pick it up in a thrift store, it's probably not that important. Or maybe I'm just a lazy heifer who doesn't care to search lol.

Although, I'm thinking if it's that important, you won't be finding it in a thrift shop, kwim?

I also think if it was that important, it wouldn't be that obscure.

Yeah, see, I'm not so sure that the shirt this author was talking about was all that special. It's pretty standard day to day attire in many parts of the subcontinent. I mean, it's not a wedding dress.

I guess this is why I was rubbed the wrong way. She is being awfully navel-gazy about essentially a T-shirt and jeans type of outfit for people from a massive continent.

You know, I guess I find it more obnoxious when people know what it is and have this weird colonial attitude about it..."When I was in Rhodesia, I picked up some looovely native skirts" and then wears it around all the time when at conferences and stuff.

That's just standard douche, though.

LOL. The question is were they in Rhodesia building houses or just vacationing?

And yeah, navel-gazer is pretty well her middle name.

[PinkSquirrel]

Jun 14, 2012 11:54:32 GMT -5 meshaliuknits said:

I really, really want to wear a sari. They're so gorgeous. I'm hoping I can during the diversity fair fashion show at work this year.

That particular item of clothing, I didn't know what it was called, but I did immediately recognize that it is Indian/Pakastani/Nepali-ish. It's usually sitting in the display windows next to the saris. They're lovely. If I saw a white woman wearing it I would probably assume she was of Indian descent. But, at the end of the day, if you're wearing it respectfully, go on with your bad self.

Not going to lie, I bug my coworker on a regular basis about when his daughter is getting married because it would be acceptable for me to wear a sari to the wedding and I want one so bad.

[wawa]

Jun 15, 2012 12:44:02 GMT -5 PinkSquirrel said:

Jun 14, 2012 11:54:32 GMT -5 meshaliuknits said:

I really, really want to wear a sari. They're so gorgeous. I'm hoping I can during the diversity fair fashion show at work this year.

That particular item of clothing, I didn't know what it was called, but I did immediately recognize that it is Indian/Pakastani/Nepali-ish. It's usually sitting in the display windows next to the saris. They're lovely. If I saw a white woman wearing it I would probably assume she was of Indian descent. But, at the end of the day, if you're wearing it respectfully, go on with your bad self.

Not going to lie, I bug my coworker on a regular basis about when his daughter is getting married because it would be acceptable for me to wear a sari to the wedding and I want one so bad.

I know this is wrong, but I'm kinda bitter that I went to a college with a HUGE south asian studen population, but I wasn't close enough to a single indian person to get invited to their wedding after college. I only stayed friends with one indian dude, and I'm not sure he's ever going to get married. Might be gay. Hasn't come out. Lame.

[meshaliuknits]

Jun 15, 2012 12:58:39 GMT -5 wawa said:

Jun 15, 2012 12:44:02 GMT -5 PinkSquirrel said:

Not going to lie, I bug my coworker on a regular basis about when his daughter is getting married because it would be acceptable for me to wear a sari to the wedding and I want one so bad.

I know this is wrong, but I'm kinda bitter that I went to a college with a HUGE south asian studen population, but I wasn't close enough to a single indian person to get invited to their wedding after college. I only stayed friends with one indian dude, and I'm not sure he's ever going to get married. Might be gay. Hasn't come out. Lame.

My Indian friends were already married when I met them. I'd have to wait until their kids get married.