Legal Help for the Poor is in a State of Crisis

[Deleted]

Um, any lawyer GTG should be held in Milwaukee. Why would a group of professional drinkers NOT meet in Brew City?

DUH.

[Deleted]

i'm going to be a lawyer asshole here and point out that it's not just underfunding of legal aid and law school loans and hubris and overwork that keeps lawyers out of legal aid, it's also the (perceived? real?) lack of legal complexity in the work. in addition to the whole social worker/lawyer line to be walked that was mentioned above, it's just not as interesting from a law perspective.

not every lawyer wants to be a cerebral jackass just thinking about abstract rights and the nuances of aggregation of class plaintiffs' claims to reach the jurisdictional amount, but MOST lawyers were sufficiently nerdy that thinking through headier problems than your standard landlord-tenant law is what really knocks their socks off.

so now there aren't any positions, they're underfunded, the work is emotionally draining, physically taxing, requires non-legal skills few lawyers really possess, and is legally boring (most of the time). no wonder legal aid is a tough sell. i mean, blah blah helping people, but really, lawyer assholes aren't likely to have mother theresa levels of patience.

[heyjude]

Cali lawyers unite!

(all 2 of us?)

[Deleted]

the legal aid type work that i've done and that my husband has done (he's done EXPONENTIALLY more than me, so i found it very interesting that he felt the same way) was for the both of us about 3/4 "my GOD, this person's legal situation sucks, but so do they!" and 1/4 "my GOD, person's legal situation sucks and i will FIGHT TO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH TO HELP THEM."

[Deleted]

well, my "suckiest" person wasn't trying to dodge child support, she just sucked in other ways (and thought i was her lawyer for lyfe, no matter how many times i redescribed the nature of my representation and referred her to others). my husband said it wasn't so much that the people he was working with were awful and terrible, but for the most part short-sighted and selfish. that's sucky, but not "i want to kick you in the face" awful.

[IIOY]

Jun 15, 2012 12:32:43 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

I'll be honest, I'm also a little nervous that I would hate my clients. Like I'm pretty sure some one would come in saying they need help because their income is about to be garnished for child support payments and I'd be all, "PAY YOUR FUCKING CHILD SUPPORT, DEADBEAT!!!" Or you'd get women coming in for protective orders, you'd spend a shit ton of time getting one executed, and then you'd find out that 8 days later she's voluntarily living with the asshat that kicked her kids around because they're in loooooove. Cannot deal with that shit.

BTDT re: PFAs.

I will add to the flame fest and say this: no paying client was ever as rude, demanding, entitled, and overall unpleasant as any of the pro bono clients with whom I worked. Granted some of them were elderly so I can chalk at least some of that up to Cranky Fogey Syndrome, but I took some serious verbal abuse from clients who weren't paying a dime for my work and who thought I just wasn't jumping fast enough or high enough for them.

Now, there are all sorts of potential reasons for this, not all of them unjustified, but reasonable or not, it's difficult not to start developing some resentment, especially if you're being paid shit or less for what you do.

[heyjude]

Everyone thinks that people seeking legal aid actually all have some laudable legal issue to be resolved. So many of them have issues and many times it's not legal.

Do you know what it's like to talk to a person who wants help going after the "individual" who is breaking into her house everyday to shuffle her papers around and move her stuff?

[cookiemdough]

Jun 15, 2012 12:51:01 GMT -5 IIOY said:

Jun 15, 2012 12:32:43 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

I'll be honest, I'm also a little nervous that I would hate my clients. Like I'm pretty sure some one would come in saying they need help because their income is about to be garnished for child support payments and I'd be all, "PAY YOUR FUCKING CHILD SUPPORT, DEADBEAT!!!" Or you'd get women coming in for protective orders, you'd spend a shit ton of time getting one executed, and then you'd find out that 8 days later she's voluntarily living with the asshat that kicked her kids around because they're in loooooove. Cannot deal with that shit.

BTDT re: PFAs.

I will add to the flame fest and say this: no paying client was ever as rude, demanding, entitled, and overall unpleasant as any of the pro bono clients with whom I worked. Granted some of them were elderly so I can chalk at least some of that up to Cranky Fogey Syndrome, but I took some serious verbal abuse from clients who weren't paying a dime for my work and who thought I just wasn't jumping fast enough or high enough for them.

Now, there are all sorts of potential reasons for this, not all of them unjustified, but reasonable or not, it's difficult not to start developing some resentment, especially if you're being paid shit or less for what you do.

I wonder if a lot of this has to do with a lack of understanding by a regular person on what their lawyer has the capability of achieving on their behalf? In general though I find this interesting because it is not like corporations are angels and some of the stuff they get their attorneys to advance on their behalf doesn't exactly give off the warm and fuzzies. Is it because these issues are not as personal and therefore easier to swallow?

[ttt]

Jun 15, 2012 11:49:42 GMT -5 ESF said:

Jun 15, 2012 10:13:57 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

I heard this this morning on NPR and thought (because I am really looking for a change in my career), I should go work at a legal aid clinic. It should be so much more satisfying than this shit. Then I heard the stuff about how they're actually laying people off because they can't afford them. So it's not like there aren't lawyers who want to work there; it's that they can't afford the lawyers (who believe me, are not making 175K a year). So then I started thinking, well, maybe I could volunteer one day a week but then I quickly remembered that you cannot handle a litigation load of cases working one day a week. Things would happen on your files when you weren't there and it would be a cluster. You'd miss statutes, filing deadlines, phone calls, emergencies. I have no idea what the solution is.

I really believe that there needs to be two classes of law schools.

There's the formal 3 year law school model that we have now, that is more academic than practical.

But there needs to be an alternative to that - something that is in between a paralegal certificate and law school. Maybe it's an 18 month practical program. Or perhaps it's just an extension of undergrad. You major in law, and there's significant internship requirements. And that's it.

Everyone is subject to the same character and fitness requirements. People could take the bar, or they could take a limited bar which allowed them to dispense legal advice only on narrow categories of topics, as well as make court appearances.

There will always be jobs that will require the 3 year law school from prestigious schools or the standard bar. But making a cheaper, practical law school and changing the entry requirements would make it easier for people that most need the help to get it.

Most people who cannot afford legal services do not need complicated help. They need assistance with very routine collections matters, property/housing disputes, and family law issues. Most of these things can be handled without someone going through law school as we know it.

The other benefit of this plan would be that most of these diploma mills would be run out of business. People could still fulfill their dreams of being a lawyer, but they'd actually graduate with job skills and low enough student debt to take jobs that paid $35k a year.

I like this. Kind of a legal version of a PA. Because usually you don't need surgery, you just need a prescription for antibiotics.

[meshaliuknits]

Jun 15, 2012 11:38:05 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

I've met 2 of the lawyers here, and they were awesome. Not asshoies.

I've met at least one (maybe two) and I agree with this assessment.

[IIOY]

cookie - I think your synopsis is fair. I think that people unfamiliar with the legal system can have unrealistic expectations about the amount of effort required to move forward and the results that can be achieved, as well as the time frame required for getting things done. Like others said, you also have people who want the legal system to solve non-legal issues and who don't want to be told that the magic results they see on TV can't happen in the real world.

They may have an emotional investment in the issue because its likely to be personal, although to be fair, employment law involves a lot of emotion: I've had to talk many a manager down from the ledge when they've been personally accused of bigotry or worse.

I think there can also be some resentment or embarrassment about having to utilize free legal services and/or spill personal business to a stranger that was assigned rather than selected. I think this is especially the case with DV and family law matters, which are touchy under any circumstances. I also think people who are forced to utilize community legal services may feel beaten down in life in general and feel as though they are owed something.

Perhaps some conclude that those providing pro bono services do so out of necessity because they aren't good enough to do work in a big, fancy, LA Law-type firm, and therefore don't deserve respect.

And some people are just entitled assholes.

Really, I'm not sure there is one answer. I certainly never landed on a single, sweeping conclusion. However, I was always somewhat confounded by the fact that people paying hundreds of dollars per hour for my time were, generally speaking, more respectful of both my time and me.

[ESF]

Jun 15, 2012 13:06:10 GMT -5 cookiemdough said:

Jun 15, 2012 12:51:01 GMT -5 IIOY said:

BTDT re: PFAs.

I will add to the flame fest and say this: no paying client was ever as rude, demanding, entitled, and overall unpleasant as any of the pro bono clients with whom I worked. Granted some of them were elderly so I can chalk at least some of that up to Cranky Fogey Syndrome, but I took some serious verbal abuse from clients who weren't paying a dime for my work and who thought I just wasn't jumping fast enough or high enough for them.

Now, there are all sorts of potential reasons for this, not all of them unjustified, but reasonable or not, it's difficult not to start developing some resentment, especially if you're being paid shit or less for what you do.

I wonder if a lot of this has to do with a lack of understanding by a regular person on what their lawyer has the capability of achieving on their behalf? In general though I find this interesting because it is not like corporations are angels and some of the stuff they get their attorneys to advance on their behalf doesn't exactly give off the warm and fuzzies. Is it because these issues are not as personal and therefore easier to swallow?

People don't like attorneys and they don't trust attorneys. That's why so many people are rude when getting legal help, even if it's free. People don't trust that the advice they get will help them.

And, regular people don't need lawyers unless they are in a hot mess of a situation. Lawyers and courts are seen as a horrible, bad thing. They are not viewed as advocates and dispute resolution tools.

I think it's different on the corporate side, because even though the corporations might be doing evil stuff, the clients themselves are familiar with the legal process and know that to get the best deal, they need to make their lawyers their friends. That's not to say that representing corporations doesn't come with its own problems, but you aren't starting off with someone who inherently distrusts you and your whole profession. And many corporate clients seek legal advice not just when they are in trouble, but as preventative measures or good business. So they aren't necessarily bitter over the need to hire a lawyer.

[Deleted]

Jun 15, 2012 9:05:30 GMT -5 MrsAxilla said:

Does anyone do GAL? I've been thinking of doing that with my free time....

I do GAL work in both CPS cases as well as regular divorce/custody cases. I get paid for it, though, so it's not something I do in my free time. Where I practice, the GAL is always a paid attorney, unlike in some areas where they are volunteers from the community.

I love GAL work because it is hands on and you are making a real difference. You spend time with the kids in their home and school, talk to teachers, therapists, etc. A GAL recommendation can completely change the course of a case, and the guardian can also play an instrumental role in helping the parties reach an agreement. Where I work, the guardian's recommendation is taken very seriously, so if I ask for a psych eval, medical eval of a child, etc, it typically happens. It is rewarding work that actually matters, but of course there are challenges as well.

[StrawberryBlondie]

Jun 15, 2012 12:51:01 GMT -5 IIOY said:

I will add to the flame fest and say this: no paying client was ever as rude, demanding, entitled, and overall unpleasant as any of the pro bono clients with whom I worked. Granted some of them were elderly so I can chalk at least some of that up to Cranky Fogey Syndrome, but I took some serious verbal abuse from clients who weren't paying a dime for my work and who thought I just wasn't jumping fast enough or high enough for them.

Now, there are all sorts of potential reasons for this, not all of them unjustified, but reasonable or not, it's difficult not to start developing some resentment, especially if you're being paid shit or less for what you do.

OMG, YES!!!!

I had a pro bono client call me 16 times by 3 pm one day. By call 9, I was getting yelled at that I hadn't gotten started yet on what we discussed in call #4.

I wanted to scream into the phone "you haven't given me any time because you call every 20 minutes!!!!! And oh, by the way, I have other clients who have more pressing needs than you do!"

Same client also would never leave a message on my voicemail. If I didn't answer, I'd get another call 5 minutes later.

We also had so many people who would insist they could pay only $25/month for what was usually going to be a super complicated, drama-filled case that was sure to drag on for months.

We started telling people that that would give them 6 minutes of work per month.

[ttt]

As a PI, DH would get all kind of bizarre and crazy calls. One woman called and wanted to know how she could find out if there was a warrant out for her arrest. He's like, umm, well, did you do something that would result in a warrant for your arrest? She wanted him to visit every single county in Georgia and ask them if there was a warrant out for her. There are 100+ counties in Georgia. And she wanted him to do it for free.

I think there are a lot of weird and entitled people out there.

[ESF]

My H runs an organization that gets pro bono help from a big law firm. He has to call their lawyers all the time for free advice. I will remind him to be nice. I think he got mouthy with the employment lawyer once, when she wanted to include an arbitration provision in their employment contracts, and he told her his wife would kill him if he let that happen.