To clarify, because I realized this is a distinction that might be worth making. It's possible I'd judge people for their decision making process, but it's unlikely I'd disagree with them on the final result. Like SBP's neighbor - assuming those are the entirety of the facts, she pretty clearly sucks and should probably be in charge as few children as possible. So...yeah, she probably should get an abortion because she sounds like a shitass parent.
She's an asshole for why she wants one, but the fact that she wants one though probably means she should have one. I think that applies across the board.
Pardon my ignorance, but is reducing a non-complications twin pregnancy down to a singleton really a common procedure?
According to the article, it's still fairly uncommon but an increasing number of women are seeking it out (probably due to fertility treatments). Some have difficulty finding a doctor willing to do it though for ethical reasons.
Thanks for the response. I really hadn't heard of this before. While I can't see myself reducing two to one if they're both healthy, everyone has their reasons and I'm not in the position to judge. Ugh, twin pregnancy sounds grueling too!
I have all the books I could need, and what more could I need than books? I shall only engage in commerce if books are the coin. -- Catherynne M. Valente
Why the propensity to judge at all? How does another woman's decisions about her body impact the decisions for yours? (this is a general, into-the-void question.)
If I already had a child/children and wanted one more to complete my family and ended up with multiples, I'd probably want to reduce. Whether my husband would or not is another question.
The only thing I judge is when one family thinks their reason for having an abortion is more legitimate than someone else's. In 5 years of funding abortions I have yet to find a single reason I judge. These are real people with reasons that are very real to them even if they're not reasons someone else would decide to have an abortion.
I apply a "reasonable person" standard to almost all behavior. I generally judge people who fall outside that definition. Getting a gender selection abortion on the cusp of viability is pretty morally indefensible.
I feel like most people who would do something like that are privileged enough to find the sex out as early as possible and have their abortion prior to 20 weeks. Even then though, a second tri abortion is a two day not at all fun procedure and if someone feels that strongly about terminating that they're willing to go through that I still have a hard time judging.
I have a feeling the outliers on the reasonable person scale are not the people struggling to pay for abortions that I talk to. The more privileged someone is the easier I find it to judge
Why the propensity to judge at all? How does another woman's decisions about her body impact the decisions for yours? (this is a general, into-the-void question.)
We make decisions about others' behavior inherently in defining who we are. "I am NOT that." "I am more like that." Everyone judges. They judge the hairstyle of the woman on the bus whom they do not know and will never know again and even if they "adjudicate" that the hair is lovely and reminds them of sunflowers and sandy beaches, that's still a judgment: acceptable.
Anyone who says they "don't judge" is either lying to me or lying to themselves.
I agree. I'm AWESOME at judging. I just found out that "no smoking within 20 feet of a doorway" is a state law rather than a municipal law, and I told my husband that now I just feel more secure in being judgmental. But most abortions I don't judge. Maybe I'm pro-abortion, because in many instances, I think abortion is probably the right call if you're considering it or in a situation where you should be considering it. If a woman chooses not to have a baby because she can't afford it, that's really sad. And that shouldn't be the case. But the reality of the situation is that within the next several months society isn't going to change enough to give her the support she needs to support that baby, so yes, abortion in this instance is probably a good option.
In the scenario you mentioned I'd probably already be judging that woman for like 45345 other things. Plus, obviously, it's a huge outlier.
That may be true in generalities, but this specific circumstance did not involve a woman of privilege. She lived in Sec. 8 housing. I grew up on Pigeon Hill in Bloomington IN, so my early experiences with what abortion was and who was getting it involved almost exclusively poor women and teenagers. This is one of the reasons why, generally, I am fiercely protective of abortion rights. In fact, even this woman's gender selection abortion, while morally repugnant I don't think should have been illegal. But the question was "Do you judge" and yeah, looking back on that as a 35 year old, I judge the hell out of it. At 11, I barely understood what she was talking about. At any rate, no, she was not living in privilege.
I was just trying to imagine an instance where I would judge, but like I said, I still don't see myself judging if that's what someone feels they need to do. My capacity to judge reasons people want/have abortions got lost about 4 years ago. I will judge hard for all sorts of things, but I have almost no capacity to do so with abortions.
Post by heliocentric on Jul 12, 2013 11:02:45 GMT -5
If I am honest there are probably occasions where I would judge. I quietly judge all kinds of things other people do. Yet I would never try to prevent people from making those personal decisions by making it illegal or unsafe. Just because I find something another person does unsavory doesn't mean they shouldn't be entiteled to do it.
According to the article, it's still fairly uncommon but an increasing number of women are seeking it out (probably due to fertility treatments). Some have difficulty finding a doctor willing to do it though for ethical reasons.
Thanks for the response. I really hadn't heard of this before. While I can't see myself reducing two to one if they're both healthy, everyone has their reasons and I'm not in the position to judge. Ugh, twin pregnancy sounds grueling too!
Lcap is correct -it's more common due to fertility treatments.
In the cases of women who face a multiples pregnancy after fertility treatments the risks to them (and babies) are much higher. Older women (which generally is the case with fertility tx) face higher risks of pre-e, and IVF pregnancies face higher likelihood of preterm labor, among a laundry list of other things. Adding in more than one baby increases those risks even more. It's not really healthy vs unhealthy in terms of fetus - it's the gamble of seeing if you can get both of them to term, or even remotely close to it, without complications.
And then due the higher likelihood of preterm birth, NICU stays and developmental disabilities and long term health complications need to be considered, completely separately from the more "mundane" stuff like figuring out how to afford childcare for two after many people have drained their bank accounts to even afford infertility treatments in the first place.
I can't really say what I would do in those shoes (esp since this LO is the result of IVF) but I can tell you DH and I were absolutely holding our breath before our first ultrasounds until we were sure that our single embryo had not resulted in twins, for all the reasons I mentioned above.
Why the propensity to judge at all? How does another woman's decisions about her body impact the decisions for yours? (this is a general, into-the-void question.)
It doesn't affect me at all. But I do consider it "life", and sacred on a level above a cluster of cells. I still think the woman is the person, and I certainly don't support personhood for fetuses, but just on a personal and spiritual level, I want that life to be considered. There are plenty of situations (most?) where I find it absolutely morally acceptable to consider that life and come to the decision that it's best to terminate it, but in the off situation where it's just "this wouldn't be great right now, and I could take a pill and make it go away", yeah, that gets my squicky up.
Since this is my own personal belief, I don't hold anyone to it, legally or outside of my own brain and the (semi-)anonymous interwebs.
I don't judge any of these things. Not even privately. To me, even when you are 100% legally pro-choice, judging and having a problem with it is kind of like saying, "Oh yeah, gay people should get married and have rights and stuff, but I really don't want to see two dudes making out on the street." Gross. It's in the same vein as having a personal problem with interracial marriage like for your own kid, even if you don't go against it legally.
Attitudes matter. There are a lot of things that my mom doesn't legally or officially "judge" but I was still raised by one of the judgiest women in the world. And it really seeped into my brain and I've spent 12 years of adulthood trying to become less of an asshole because of it.
So no, it's in no sense my place to judge someone's personal choice about abortion. And though I couldn't always say this, I really don't now.
I don't find this analogous to gay marriage at all, unless you honestly believe that God disapproves of same-sex relationships. I know there are plenty of people who do believe that, but I'm not sure how they reconcile that with a New Testament God. I do think it's possible to reconcile a New Testament God with the idea that life should be considered and cherished.
Post by mominatrix on Jul 12, 2013 11:37:29 GMT -5
See, I'm FAR more likely to judge situations where I think somebody SHOULD have had an abortion (or used Plan B, or BC) than ones where they did.
Another person from the same hot mess group as the other girl I talked about has a three year old, SOLELY because she was too... lazy? whatever... to walk her ass three BLOCKS to the clinic to get BC. She'll tell you that. She'll also tell you it was 'unsafe'. It was on an effing military base; how 'unsafe' can that be???
that, I judge.
My friend who had a second trimester abortion, that some would label out of 'convenience', because (IMHO) she was in denial, coupled with a history of anorexia that made her periods incredibly irregular... her, I don't judge.
I don't find this analogous to gay marriage at all, unless you honestly believe that God disapproves of same-sex relationships. I know there are plenty of people who do believe that, but I'm not sure how they reconcile that with a New Testament God. I do think it's possible to reconcile a New Testament God with the idea that life should be considered and cherished.
I don't think the situations are actually analogous, I think the attitudes are. Lukewarm pro-choice attitudes are what continue to make abortion so stigmatized. If everyone who had a problem with abortion was Michele Bachmann, she could be summarily dismissed. But when even your allies are kind of holding their noses for your rights, it's really unfortunate and allows for abortion rights to be chipped away as they are in courts today.
I totally disagree. In fact, I think it's the "all or nothing, either you love abortion in all circumstances or you GTFO out of the pro-choice movement" attitude that turns so many people off from being pro-choice.
It's why so many people who actually *are* pro-choice hesitate to describe themselves as such. They say "well I'm pro-life for myself but I think women should be able to choose". That *is* pro-choice but the label of pro-choice has been so stigmatized as "pro-abortion" that even people who believe in choice don't say they're pro choice.
I disagree. I find adultery to be completely morally repugnant in nearly all circumstances. So do a lot of people. But legally, adultery faces no stigma or "chipping away" the way abortion does.
I suppose that makes some sense. I'll have to think about that. Perhaps adultery is a unique example because it faces no legal ramification while abortion does.
And wouldn't it be great if abortion didn't either.
I knew I'd be able to ditto stamp asdfjkl and ttt eventually in this thread
Post by tyrionduckyfad on Jul 12, 2013 12:10:30 GMT -5
I tend to separate out my personal feelings on abortion and what I think should be legal. Legally, I don't think the state should get a say in a woman and her health care provider's decisions. For me, that's the end of the legal discussion. I support a woman's right to choose and not have me or anyone else legally restrict what she can do with her body.
There are many reasons for abortions I might *personally* judge or side-eye. I personally think there are too many abortions in this country and there are some people who really should be more careful with their Birth Control. I think a lack of real, comprehensive Sex Education is a big part of that problem.
So yeah, there's a host of reasons why I personally would think someone "shouldn't" get an abortion. But again, I don't think the state should make those decisions and I support the right to choose.
Post by simplyinpenguin on Jul 12, 2013 12:11:01 GMT -5
I currently have a neighbor who is in her mid-30s, pregnant with a 19 year old man-boy's child. She smokes pot and drinks a lot of hard liquor (saw this first hand on the 4th of July, she was plastered). Normally, I wouldn't judge, however she has 2 children by 2 different fathers who are completely out of control, she's always tossing out the man-boy at least once a week because they get into the horrendous fights that include physical abuse. Is it wrong for me to wish she had an abortion? I don't see much good coming out of this situation, especially if the baby is born with fetal-alcohol-syndrome.
Post by darthnbjenni on Jul 12, 2013 12:40:55 GMT -5
There's only one person that I'm all judgy about her past abortions. She's my uncle's step-daughter, who is a year younger than me (30). Her first baby was taken away by the state several years ago, she's had 16 abortions, and now she's a married "Christian" with a child, always posting biblical stuff, GOP lover, proclaiming that all welfare users are lazy minorities and draining our society - but is collection disability because of the damage 16 abortions caused her. JUDGING!
Post by simplyinpenguin on Jul 12, 2013 12:44:52 GMT -5
SIXTEEN ABORTIONS? Whoa...and the fact that she's pretending like it never happened (while collecting money for it whilst pretending it didn't happen). Uh, yeah I'd have to ^o) at this. Sixteen abortions.....wow. All before the age of 30? Just.....wow.
SIXTEEN ABORTIONS? Whoa...and the fact that she's pretending like it never happened (while collecting money for it whilst pretending it didn't happen). Uh, yeah I'd have to at this. Sixteen abortions.....wow. All before the age of 30? Just.....wow.
SIXTEEN ABORTIONS? Whoa...and the fact that she's pretending like it never happened (while collecting money for it whilst pretending it didn't happen). Uh, yeah I'd have to at this. Sixteen abortions.....wow. All before the age of 30? Just.....wow.
Admittedly, I judge her ignorance more.
Oh...definitely. I'm just shocked to see double digit abortions from one person. How was she able to have a child at that point? I can only imagine what her ute looks like
Oh...definitely. I'm just shocked to see double digit abortions from one person. How was she able to have a child at that point? I can only imagine what her ute looks like
I have no idea. I know she's been with her husband for a few years, so I'm guessing the bulk of them were in her teens and early 20s.
Post by simplyinpenguin on Jul 12, 2013 12:55:56 GMT -5
If she was able to have a child after all that, how is she qualified for disability from the abortions? If they saw that she was still able to have a child, would that indicate that her ute is/was, indeed, working?
If she was able to have a child after all that, how is she qualified for disability from the abortions? If they saw that she was still able to have a child, would that indicate that her ute is/was, indeed, working?
(This part is second hand from my mom - I haven't spoken to step-cousin in ages) - but apparently shortly after having her baby (she's less than a year old now), she had all sorts of complications and had a hysterectomy.
What annoys me is it seems some people view abortion as nothing more than getting a cavity filled. A woman is pregnant and puts no thought into aborting her child. They don't seem to understand that it's a huge decision for some women and there is a lot of guilt involved, before, during and after the procedure. Not all women view abortion as a form of birth control.
There's only one person that I'm all judgy about her past abortions. She's my uncle's step-daughter, who is a year younger than me (30). Her first baby was taken away by the state several years ago, she's had 16 abortions, and now she's a married "Christian" with a child, always posting biblical stuff, GOP lover, proclaiming that all welfare users are lazy minorities and draining our society - but is collection disability because of the damage 16 abortions caused her. JUDGING!
I don't know where she lives. However, ff she had 16 first trimester abortions in Texas at about $450 each, she spent $7200 in terminations. She could have purchased 12 years of birth control pills at $50/mo for the same amount. Chances are she could have gotten the pill for much cheaper, too!
I don't know where she lives. However, ff she had 16 first trimester abortions in Texas at about $450 each, she spent $7200 in terminations. She could have purchased 12 years of birth control pills at $50/mo for the same amount. Chances are she could have gotten the pill for much cheaper, too!
I judge the guy who was out on a smoke break while his girlfriend waited in the clinic. He felt compelled to tell us escorts and security guards that he was a man because he didn't just pay for this abortion, he paid for his last girlfriend's. And then told us how much he hated condoms.