Abortion Friday?

[Deleted]

Anyone up for a discussion about this topic?

Do you judge the reasons behind an abortion? Is it all ok with you? None ok? Some things but not others? Like, would you judge a woman who might seek out an abortion for "convenience" vs. failed contraception? What about reducing a twin pregnancy to a singleton? (I realize that the vast majority on this board don't favor legal restrictions on abortion which imo is a different subject).

The reason I'm asking is that someone posted a link to this NYT Mag article. I was rereading it last night and it was making me so angry to think that doctors who perform abortions and reductions of higher order multiple pregnancies would balk at reducing a twin pregnancy. At one point in the article the author talks about societal judgement behind abortion:


Society judges reproductive choices based on the motives behind them. Though roughly half of Americans identify as “pro-choice” and half as “pro-life,” polls also show the distinction blurs depending on why the woman is aborting. If a woman is the victim of incest or rape, or if her health is threatened, far more people — including abortion opponents — understand her choice to end the pregnancy. Support falls off if a woman aborts for financial reasons and is lowest of all if she aborts because of the fetus’s sex.

Think about the common reaction to a woman who aborts because contraception failed versus a woman (and her partner) who took no precaution at all. “It changes our judgment of the moral character of the individual making the abortion decision,” says Bonnie Steinbock, a philosophy professor at SUNY Albany who is on the ethics committee of the American Society for Reproductive Medicine. “In the first case, it wasn’t her ‘fault’; in the second, it was. It doesn’t mean the careless person shouldn’t have the right to an abortion, but it does mean we’re going to have a very different reaction to that choice.” Likewise, people may judge two-to-one reductions more harshly because the fertility treatment that yielded the pregnancy significantly increased the chance of multiples. “People may think, You brought this about yourself, so you should be willing to take some of the risk,” Steinbock says.

Women who reduce to singletons sometimes think the same thing. “Most of the two-to-one patients have gone to incredible lengths to get pregnant,” Donna Steinberg, a clinical psychologist in Manhattan who specializes in counseling infertility patients, says. “They’ve paid a lot of money and put their bodies through tremendous stress, and they’ve gotten what they wanted — and now they’re going to reduce? Outsiders think, How is that possible? And that’s also where the patients’ guilt comes from.”


In my mind they're basically all the same thing and the reasons behind the choice don't really matter to me. Just curious about where other people stand on this.

[IIOY]

Well, this just made my day easier. I can ignore the board and be productive IRL.  Have fun, everyone!

[iammalcolmx]

Yup I judge them but I would never say anything.

ETA: Because its not my business.

[msmerymac]

Nope, I don't at all. But I also have a very strong opinion about not using pregnancy as a "punishment" for choices that others judge. Getting an abortion IS dealing with the consequences of an unintended pregnancy. Sorry that's not "enough" of a punishment for some people.


Whether *I* would make that particular decision myself in the same circumstances is another discussion. But everyone makes different choices that are right for them.

[Velar Fricative]

I don't understand judging abortions done because of financial reasons. "I can't afford a kid/another kid" is a damn good reason to get one if someone chooses to terminate, IMO.

[demandypants]

no judging. it is a personal medical decision and none of my business.

[simplyinpenguin]

It's not like they're "tra-la-la" after an abortion. It is a major emotional suck that can really affect you. This is what bothers me the most. The assumption that women happily go into an abortion clinic and leave happily after the abortion is performed. NO. It's a major decision, one that only SHE can make and it's not a decision that's made lightly, knowing the circumstances and the outcome. The last thing anyone needs is to judge. Live your life, let others live theirs.

[pescalita]

Jul 12, 2013 8:25:29 GMT -5 iammalcolmx said:

Yup I judge them but I would never say anything.

ETA: Because its not my business.

Yup. But I also agree with simply that it's not a "tra-la-la" thing, or at least I can't know if it is for them or not. Finding yourself accidentally pregnant is the suck, and if you don't find any of your options palatable, I don't envy your position enough to openly judge it.

[redheadbaker]

Did we not do this, like, a month ago?

How about, mind your own damn business?

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[suzyp]

Newp. Don't care. My opinion became even more solidified after volunteering to escort at Planned Parenthood. People would try to tell me why they were having an abortion - I felt bad that they felt they needed to justify/explain it to me.  Your decision, not mine. And I don't really care why.

And while most women aren't all tra-la-la about having an abortion it is also not some giant emotional trauma either.

[expatpumpkin]

Pardon my ignorance, but is reducing a non-complications twin pregnancy down to a singleton really a common procedure?

[AJL]

"Do you judge the reasons behind an abortion?" No.

"Is it all OK with you?" Yes.

"None OK? Somethings but not others?" All OK. Her reasons are her own. They have no effect on my life and reproductive health decisions.

"Like, would you judge a woman who might seek out an abotion for "convenience" vs. failed contraception?" This question doesn't really make sense but I'll answer based on what I assume you're asking: No.

"What about reducing a twin pregnancy to a singleton?" That's OK, too.

[iammalcolmx]

Jul 12, 2013 8:44:34 GMT -5 pescalita said:

Jul 12, 2013 8:25:29 GMT -5 iammalcolmx said:

Yup I judge them but I would never say anything.

ETA: Because its not my business.

Yup. But I also agree with simply that it's not a "tra-la-la" thing, or at least I can't know if it is for them or not. Finding yourself accidentally pregnant is the suck, and if you don't find any of your options palatable, I don't envy your position enough to openly judge it.

To Clarify I have nly judged certain situations, in general I do not. For example my ex-friend who got pregnant by a useless guy she knew about 2 months. During the first Trimester of her pregnancy she would threaten to abort every-time they got into an argument so he was on his best behavior until he knew she could no longer abort. She ended up having the baby but I sure did judge every-time she threatened to abort the child just to spite him.

[erbear]

I don't, I don't think. I mean, if I knew someone who was having an abortion because she didn't use birth control and got pregnant, I might judge her in my head, but at the same time, I support abortion rights in a way that I understand that even though it's not the choice *I* would make, it's none of my damn business for someone else to make it. There are few circumstances that I would personally have an abortion (though among them are reducing a multiples pregnancy if it's not safe for me - I have two kids who need a mama), but it's not my place to make the decision for someone else.

[bluestreet]

Jul 12, 2013 8:51:52 GMT -5 suzyp said:

Newp. Don't care. My opinion became even more solidified after volunteering to escort at Planned Parenthood. People would try to tell me why they were having an abortion - I felt bad that they felt they needed to justify/explain it to me.  Your decision, not mine. And I don't really care why.

And while most women aren't all tra-la-la about having an abortion it is also not some giant emotional trauma either.

It completely depends on the person and her circumstances. In the pro-choice movement there's a tendency to downplay any emotional difficulty for fear that will add fuel to pro-life arguments. But that shouldn't matter. Getting a vasectomy, hysterectomy, mastectomy, etc. can be emotional choices for some people. That doesn't mean they should be illegal.

[ringstrue]

No way.

I think judgement is the price we pay for not talking about the actual biological and lifestyle realities mothers deal with. While its inappropriate in the workplace to go into graphic detail about exactly how your baby would suffer and die a fate worse than death by disembowelment if you let it go to term and give birth to it, the cost of not saying anything is that people wonder why and come to their own conclusions for better or worse. Neither do people want to talk about how their living children eat dinners of saltine crackers and ketchup and soda (on a good night) or how they are being physically abused by the crappy family who are watching them since they are all the mother can afford. But because we don't say it, we use the vague term of "convince" as if the mother would now have hundreds of $$ a month more to buy shoes instead of having a 2nd or 5th child.

So no, I don't judge, because you never know what goes on in these people's lives.


This is also why I don't trash pick

[suzyp]

Jul 12, 2013 9:02:11 GMT -5 bluestreet said:

Jul 12, 2013 8:51:52 GMT -5 suzyp said:

Newp. Don't care. My opinion became even more solidified after volunteering to escort at Planned Parenthood. People would try to tell me why they were having an abortion - I felt bad that they felt they needed to justify/explain it to me.  Your decision, not mine. And I don't really care why.

And while most women aren't all tra-la-la about having an abortion it is also not some giant emotional trauma either.

It completely depends on the person and her circumstances. In the pro-choice movement there's a tendency to downplay any emotional difficulty for fear that will add fuel to pro-life arguments. But that shouldn't matter. Getting a vasectomy, hysterectomy, mastectomy, etc. can be emotional choices for some people. That doesn't mean they should be illegal.

Whoops.  You are right, I am missing some words there.  I meant to say that for some women it's not some giant emotional trauma.  I just think different people have different reactions, depending on the circumstances of the unwanted pregnancy.

[ringstrue]

RE: birth control - I think I would wonder why a women wasn't on BC but I wouldn't judge her for not being on it. Lots of people can't be on it for lots of reasons.

[redheadbaker]

Jul 12, 2013 8:51:52 GMT -5 suzyp said:

And while most women aren't all tra-la-la about having an abortion it is also not some giant emotional trauma either.

Uh, what? I'd say that women who abort very loved and wanted babies for fetal abnormalities or pregnancy complications ARE traumatized.

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[bluestreet]

Not directed at OP, but I really despise the use of the word "convenience" to talk about abortion. Convenience describes when to pick up your dry cleaning, or whether to give a friend a ride, or whether if your commute is longer because you've moved to the suburbs. Not whether to grow a human in your body and become emotionally invested in its well being forever.

When we talk about having abortions for convenience what we're really talking about is putting a woman's personal happiness, needs, or life plans ahead of those of an embryo or fetus. The word convenience utterly minimizes the importance of a woman's life pursuits. What if a woman has depression and knows that the hormonal ups and downs will be unbearable, even if no psychiatrist is in on it? Or that she'll have to drop out of a graduate program that was going to prepare her for a career? Those are situations that would fall under "convenience," absurdly.

I can't think of any situation to terminate a pregnancy as one of convenience.

[Deleted]

Jul 12, 2013 8:53:14 GMT -5 expatpumpkin said:

Pardon my ignorance, but is reducing a non-complications twin pregnancy down to a singleton really a common procedure?

According to the article, it's still fairly uncommon but an increasing number of women are seeking it out (probably due to fertility treatments). Some have difficulty finding a doctor willing to do it though for ethical reasons. 

[suzyp]

Jul 12, 2013 9:07:59 GMT -5 redheadbaker said:

Jul 12, 2013 8:51:52 GMT -5 suzyp said:

And while most women aren't all tra-la-la about having an abortion it is also not some giant emotional trauma either.

Uh, what? I'd say that women who abort very loved and wanted babies for fetal abnormalities or pregnancy complications ARE traumatized.

Sent from my DROID3 using proboards

This is what I get for not proofreading - see my response above - I meant that for some women it is not, didn't mean to make an across the board statement like that.

[sporky]

Nope, I don't judge any woman's reasons for choosing to end a pregnancy. They're all valid in some way, IMO.

[mominatrix]

I'm in @majorwife 's camp right now.


Sometimes, not aborting is more judge-worthy...

I have a friend of a friend. She's young, less than 20. She has one child who's under two. She lost custody of him because she couldn't parent him appropriately; he's in the custody of biodad and her grandparents, like she has NO contact / legal relationship with him.

She's pregnant again, by a guy she met online who she's known for three weeks. She was going to get an abortion, but his parents convinced her to keep it, because biodad has had cancer and they want a grandchild... and given her track record, they'll have custody of this one sooner rather than later.


I don't get this. I honestly don't. You have one child who's been legally removed from your life because you're such a hot mess, and you fuck some guy without BC (because, as I was told, they didn't have any and, well, that's what happens) then choose to birth the child because the parents of somebody you barely know guilt you into it. And you somehow think that things will be different and you can keep this one for your very own.

...and unless somebody drags her ass to the OB's for an IUD or injection or whatever, I'm pretty sure it's going to happen again, too.


edited

[AJL]

Jul 12, 2013 8:51:52 GMT -5 suzyp said:

Newp. Don't care. My opinion became even more solidified after volunteering to escort at Planned Parenthood. People would try to tell me why they were having an abortion - I felt bad that they felt they needed to justify/explain it to me.  Your decision, not mine. And I don't really care why.

And while most women aren't all tra-la-la about having an abortion it is also not some giant emotional trauma either.

I think this statement unfairly presumes a lot about women who have abortions. Even women who are confident in their choice and may not experience regret still find the decision making process to be very emotional.

It's OK for a medical procedure to be emotional and traumatic. We shouldn't out law something that's difficult to deal with (as per the argument that if pro-choice advocates recognize that abortion can be emotionally jarring than we're conceding to a pro-life argument.)

ETA: Oops! Sorry suzyp. I just saw your replies.

[elleblue]

Jul 12, 2013 8:31:16 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

Nope, I don't at all. But I also have a very strong opinion about not using pregnancy as a "punishment" for choices that others judge. Getting an abortion IS dealing with the consequences of an unintended pregnancy. Sorry that's not "enough" of a punishment for some people.


Whether *I* would make that particular decision myself in the same circumstances is another discussion. But everyone makes different choices that are right for them.

I was going to compose a thoughtful response but then I see Mery pretty much said it all for me. So ditto.

[wawa]

I'm just going to share this here - I ended up on a random abortion tangent during a conversation with one of my (kid-free) BFF's, and she mentioned something about the father having a say argument, and I pointed out that parenthood *is* equal in terms of choices and responsibilities (legally), but pregnancy is not, so it's really all about a woman not being forced to share her body.

She said that had NEVER occurred to her. Which kinda blew my mind. She's pro-choice, but she just never really thought about how the pregnancy itself is really the part that makes it entirely a woman's choice. (i.e. that it's why the father gets no say) She'd always focused on the having kids part, or the giving birth part - not the literal sharing of your body with another living being for 9 months and what a violation that would be if you didn't *want* to be pregnant.

And then the conversation took a turn and we started talking about the movie Being John Malkovitch (sp?).

as for the OP, I've said this many a time. Sure I might judge if I actually knew all the ins and outs of why somebody made the choice they did. It's never happened, but it could I suppose in some unlikely scenario. But really, I judge all kinds of shit. I'm a judgy person. But my judgement has nothing to do with the law - and as you might guess from the conversational tidbit relayed above, "I don't want to have a baby" seems like a good reason to abort to me.

[Deleted]

I am sure there are some circumstances in which I would judge a woman for having an abortion, but I can't think of one off the top of my head. Even the frequent-aborters like MW said.....I dunno.

I used to be a lot more judgey about it but as I've gotten more and more staunchly pro-choice, my judginess has just about disappeared (in this one area. I'm still pretty judgey about other things. LOL).

[PinkSquirrel]

The only thing I judge is when one family thinks their reason for having an abortion is more legitimate than someone else's. In 5 years of funding abortions I have yet to find a single reason I judge. These are real people with reasons that are very real to them even if they're not reasons someone else would decide to have an abortion.

[msmerymac]

Jul 12, 2013 9:48:53 GMT -5 mominatrix said:

I'm in @majorwife 's camp right now.

TOTALLY agree. I can't see EVER judging an abortion. I kind of judge people who don't get one if the circumstance is that bad, though. 

Like, lucky that my step niece has my dad and his girlfriend, because she'd be in foster care otherwise. She's almost 3. Her parents were very early 20s (like 20 and maybe 22?) when she was born. Both have been incarcerated at various points in her life and had various substance abuse problems. Her dad tries, but he's been in prison probably at least half her life so far. Her maternal grandfather claims she's the love of his life, but has never paid for daycare or offered to watch her overnight. My dad and his girlfriend pay for daycare, had FULL custody of her for at least 6 months (while her father was in prison and her mother was only allowed visitation)... It's hard because I can't look at her and think she should have been aborted. I think THAT'S what people get hung up on. "But then this precious angel wouldn't be here! That would be terrible!" Yeah, my step niece is freaking adorable and everyone loves her and my dad and his GF would gladly keep supporter her because they love her so much. But if you take a step back, I don't find it hard to think, "...And you thought it would be a good idea to have a baby in your situation?"

I mean, I guess to get to that point you have to divorce the emotional aspect of the already-existing human being from your logical train of thought. Kind of like pro-lifers who say, "But how would you feel if you had been aborted?!" Well, if I didn't exist, I probably wouldn't feel anything, right? So I can't say it matters to me if I was *almost* aborted or anything.