Post by statlerwaldorf on Jun 18, 2012 8:43:06 GMT -5
We were engaged and planning our wedding. It made more sense to rent a house together than have separate rent and utility payments. Plus most houses for rent require a 1 year lease and we were getting married in less than a year. We didn't make a lot of money and we were paying for our own wedding.
Just so I'm clear, they are living together and engaged, he's just dragging his feet on actually getting married?
We lived together prior to marriage/getting engaged. Before I moved in, we had the "where is this going" talk and agreed we both wanted to get married. However, to me it felt like my H took forever to propose (a year and a half), and it was admittedly due to him being scared of failing at marriage. That was so frustrating to me and had me questioning if he was serious a couple of times but alas, he was. We were able to talk through it on our own.
My best advice is to tell her to seriously talk to her FI and find out exactly what is going on in his head. She needs to hear that, and he needs to hear what's bothering her as well. If they need to get someone else involved (counselor, priest) then ok, but this is too big of an issue to tiptoe around and guess at.
Just so I'm clear, they are living together and engaged, he's just dragging his feet on actually getting married?
We lived together prior to marriage/getting engaged. Before I moved in, we had the "where is this going" talk and agreed we both wanted to get married. However, to me it felt like my H took forever to propose (a year and a half), and it was admittedly due to him being scared of failing at marriage. That was so frustrating to me and had me questioning if he was serious a couple of times but alas, he was. We were able to talk through it on our own.
My best advice is to tell her to seriously talk to her FI and find out exactly what is going on in his head. She needs to hear that, and he needs to hear what's bothering her as well. If they need to get someone else involved (counselor, priest) then ok, but this is too big of an issue to tiptoe around and guess at.
Yes, engaged and living together...with marriage as a huge question mark at this time. I also think she needs to be more forthright in her feelings and with discussing his. However, I think she's scared...which I can certainly understand.
4 years is plenty long enough for them to be ok with being in a relationship with each other and what those expectations are, so I'm guessing he is feeling pressure that those expectations are going to change once they are married.
I think when it comes to subsequent marriages (and my parents have had 3, so I'm a bit of a pro ), it's important for both people in the couple to know and to tell each other that the wedding and marriage doesn't have to be like the former experiences. If what their relationship is like now is working for both of them, they need to basically agree that it will stay the same once there are rings on their fingers. Maybe that means they aren't going to all of a sudden go to the Ils every weekend. Maybe that means eloping. Maybe that means they aren't going to have kids. Maybe that means they aren't going to buy a house - at least not any time soon.
One thing I think people who aren't in successful marriages CAN miss out on is the positive experience of compromise. Either you just didn't experience it in a past marriage or you tried a lot and compromised a lot (or just gave up a lot) and it didn't work out in the end. So then there are these bad feelings towards compromising on your future dreams and its that much harder to be vulnerable when those subjects come up in a new relationship.
This is just a total guess on what they are going through and I honestly don't know how much help we can be w/o knowing more about the nature of his hesitations, but if things really were hunky dory right up to the engagement and then started going crappy when it came time to wedding plan and time to think about how life was going to be after the wedding, I bet this could be a part of the issue.
They've had sex right? So in the eyes of the Catholic Church they are already sinners. The only way out of that condition is to confess the sin to a priest, do the penance and vow not to do again. Whether they live together doesn't matter in the least. It is the sex part. I am Catholic and nearly all my friends and family are Catholic as well. I have never understood this. Never. I dated a guy years ago who was also Catholic (with very few exceptions every man I have ever slept with has been Catholic). He said he would confess the sex and just do it again. Um... That's not how it's supposed to work. I also had a friend who would lie to her mother (mind you she was in her early 30's at the time) that she was at my house overnight (she lived at home) when she was with her boyfriend (now husband). Now - can you imagine how funny it is to make up lies to someone's Mom who is calling my apt. at 8:00 am as I (in my early 30's as well) am on my way to my job as an attorney in Boston? My point is this- if you want to be a strict Catholic - then be one. More power to you. I respect your beliefs and fully support you. But don't namby pamby around about it. Everyone knows your family member has slept with this man and is likely to continue doing so. So what difference does it make that she is living with him?
Oh - and I did live with DH before we got married. He insisted on it as his first marriage failed due in part to the fact that he feels he did not live with his first wife and got a rude awakening about her expectations etc.
Also, I know Catholics do a different sort of per-martial counseling than others. I wonder if they could do some sort of non-religious pre-marital counseling which just helps to get them on the same page in terms of expectations.
They've had sex right? So in the eyes of the Catholic Church they are already sinners. The only way out of that condition is to confess the sin to a priest, do the penance and vow not to do again. Whether they live together doesn't matter in the least. It is the sex part. I am Catholic and nearly all my friends and family are Catholic as well. I have never understood this. Never. I dated a guy years ago who was also Catholic (with very few exceptions every man I have ever slept with has been Catholic). He said he would confess the sex and just do it again. Um... That's not how it's supposed to work. I also had a friend who would lie to her mother (mind you she was in her early 30's at the time) that she was at my house overnight (she lived at home) when she was with her boyfriend (now husband). Now - can you imagine how funny it is to make up lies to someone's Mom who is calling my apt. at 8:00 am as I (in my early 30's as well) am on my way to my job as an attorney in Boston? My point is this- if you want to be a strict Catholic - then be one. More power to you. I respect your beliefs and fully support you. But don't namby pamby around about it. Everyone knows your family member has slept with this man and is likely to continue doing so. So what difference does it make that she is living with him?
Oh - and I did live with DH before we got married. He insisted on it as his first marriage failed due in part to the fact that he feels he did not live with his first wife and got a rude awakening about her expectations etc.
You're right.. whether they live together or not it doesn't matter....but they are. I'm assuming that if she weren't living with him she would still feel the same way...that she should get married to the man with whom she is having sex on the regular.
I can understand her concern though 2 Vermont. She is afraid she might be waiting forever and in the meantime getting the side eye from her family. (Do I think it is a little silly that people would still give the side eye about people living together when they are not deluding themselves that the couple is having sex - yes..) My elderly father even got kind of "cute" with my sister trying to dig around to see if John was living with me. Mind you - I was 36 at the time for goodness sake.. But - did I tell him straight out that John lived with me - NO. He didn't need to know and for a man of his generation it probably would have upset him. Don't ask, don't tell.
Well, our situation was different because we were still young and I wasn't really thinking about marriage until I finished grad school and got a real job, so I guess that won't help your friend. If they're engaged and have been for a while and he won't work toward the actual marriage, unfortunately that doesn't sound good. It sounds like he's comfortable, so she probably needs to decide whether she can accept it if he won't take the next step.
I was married before my bf at the time was not. I did not want to get married again......ever! So, we moved in with each other under the assumption that this would be the way we would live our lives forever...together unmarried. After a while HE started dropping the M word, and HE changed his mind that he really wanted to get married. So, after many discussions and a long engagement we did.
I was the one with the hesitations because of a previous failed marriage.
It sounds to me like she's doubting more about the relationship than just the sex and living together. I've watched a few friends come back to the Church while in a serious relationship with a non-religious person. In each case, including my own, the relationship ended because the other person wasn't sharing the religion bit. When I came back to the Church, I realized that I eventually wanted to build a Catholic family with a Catholic husband. The guy I was with at the time was not and never would be a Catholic. He was great in a lot of other ways, but we didn't share this one thing that had become really important to me. Also, I really changed the game on him by becoming religious, which he seemed fine with at first, but as more of my behavior changed it clearly wasn't fair to him that I was now someone very different than the person he'd gotten into a relationship with.
How will she feel if they do get married and he doesn't want to have their children baptized and raised as practicing Catholics? Even if he is okay with that, is she willing to do all the ok for that on her own? ( religious education, getting them out of bed every Sunday to take them to mass by herself, etc.) If she does fully come back into the Curch, will she be okay having a partner who doesn't share that part of her life? Does she think he will be okay with a partner who has a big part of her life that doesn't include him?
We lived together for about 8 months prior to getting married, but we'd already gotten engaged and the only expectation was that we'd marry. Honestly, I would not have ever considered having a man move in with me if the next step weren't marriage. I was the divorced single mom, so I wasn't moving a man up in my house without definite plans of matrimony.
My honest advice is that even if they didn't move in together, it doesn't sound like her fiance' is itching to marry her. If he still has issues from his divorce, he won't be ready for that commitment UNTIL he works through his own issues. Being engaged doesn't mean a hill of beans if one person feels they can call off the engagement. It just means you dropped some cash on a pretty ring to satisfy someone for a year or two until you figure yourself out.
We lived together, but it was always part of the plan that we would would live together for a year, then get engaged for a year and then get married.
This is us too. We dated for about a year and a half and when we were sure we were going in the marriage direction, we decided to live together to see how it went. We got engaged about a year-into that, then got married about a year later.
I can understand her concern though 2 Vermont. She is afraid she might be waiting forever and in the meantime getting the side eye from her family. (Do I think it is a little silly that people would still give the side eye about people living together when they are not deluding themselves that the couple is having sex - yes..) My elderly father even got kind of "cute" with my sister trying to dig around to see if John was living with me. Mind you - I was 36 at the time for goodness sake.. But - did I tell him straight out that John lived with me - NO. He didn't need to know and for a man of his generation it probably would have upset him. Don't ask, don't tell.
Judging from her reaction, I do not think her primary concern is what her family thinks. I think she is genuinely upset based on her own feelings about how she is living her life.
We lived together for about 8 months prior to getting married, but we'd already gotten engaged and the only expectation was that we'd marry. Honestly, I would not have ever considered having a man move in with me if the next step weren't marriage. I was the divorced single mom, so I wasn't moving a man up in my house without definite plans of matrimony.
My honest advice is that even if they didn't move in together, it doesn't sound like her fiance' is itching to marry her. If he still has issues from his divorce, he won't be ready for that commitment UNTIL he works through his own issues. Being engaged doesn't mean a hill of beans if one person feels they can call off the engagement. It just means you dropped some cash on a pretty ring to satisfy someone for a year or two until you figure yourself out.
I fear that you are spot on in your last paragraph. Part of me feels like the ring was an attempt to satisfy her for the time being.
When we moved in together, we knew it was with the expectation that we would eventually get married. So, there was no difficulty or confusion involved.
This was us, too. We were engaged when we moved in together and got married five months after we signed our lease.
It wasn't "testing out the waters to see if this works" by any stretch of imagination - we just couldn't afford separate apartments and didn't want two leases when we were planning to get married so quickly anyways.
Post by heightsyankee on Jun 18, 2012 10:24:16 GMT -5
Without reading any of the other responses, isn't divorce looked down upon in the religious community as well? Sounds like they have both had multiple marriages. Maybe not getting married is best for them at this point...
Post by penguingrrl on Jun 18, 2012 10:41:13 GMT -5
We moved in together knowing that we would get married. We were 22 and 23 and had just graduated college, we got engaged about 6 months after we moved in together. His parents are fairly observant Catholics and were not thrilled we were living together, but we're in NJ, which is a HCOL area, so it was the only way either of us could afford to move out and they understood that aspect of it.
When we moved in together, we knew it was with the expectation that we would eventually get married. So, there was no difficulty or confusion involved.
Same. Moving in together was a step in the relationship process. More serious than dating exclusively. Not quite to being engaged yet. When we moved in together we did not combine finances (we only got a joint account after we got married, actually), but we both contributed to our household.
Anyway, we were pretty sure we would get married. It was possible we'd move in together full time (we were going from an LDR where we'd see each other for 48 solid hours, at least once a month) and things wouldn't work. But it ended up being really easy to live together. So, with that hurdle crossed, we got engaged eventually.
I will say that my mom and stepfather discussed this. Whether or not to actually get married or just leave things as they were. My mom is big on official marriage. She said she sees it as a way to demonstrate their commitment to the community at large (your church, your friends and family). Sure THEY know they are in a committed relationship, but there's a social aspect to marriage. It's both a literal legal contract (and religious one, if that's your thing), and also a social contract. Other people become invested in the success of your relationship.
ETA: He ended up moving into my then-apartment (with a roommate) when I was 25. He had intended to look for a job in my city that summer, but then got an offer sooner than expected ( in January). When my lease was up, we got out own place, which is where we still are. That was 4 years ago, so we were 26 and 34. We got married just over 2 years later, after a 1 year engagement.
Post by wrathofkuus on Jun 18, 2012 11:26:07 GMT -5
Okay, seriously? They've both been married and had those marriages ended more than once, and NOW she's worried about her relationship status not being kosher?
We got married because we felt like it. There really wasn't a better reason than that. It wasn't a hard decision or a struggle, because we both wanted to do it.
That's kind of the bottom line here. He doesn't want to marry her. I don't know why she wants to marry him, but they both apparently have a track record of, at the very least, choosing their partners poorly. They may have done it again.
We moved it so I could go to grad school. DH paid 100% of the household bills which allowed me to go to college. I moved in with him in June after being with him for a bit over a year. We got engaged in December and married in July.
Post by sillygoosegirl on Jun 18, 2012 11:39:14 GMT -5
I always had mixed feelings about getting married when I was growing up. I like to be in control, and you can't control another person. I wasn't a big fan of the government being involved in my relationships. And most importantly I couldn't imagine ever wanting to commit to be with the same person forever. And I wasn't religious, so that wasn't a factor. At the very least, I knew I would never consider marriage without a trial run living together. When DH and I started getting serious, I suggested living together over a summer (we were students). He was initially against it, since he wanted to be married first. But since I was adamant that I would not be making any decisions about marriage without living together, he agreed. We lived together that summer, and then again the final semester before DH graduated, but I always made sure I had an out. I didn't want to be like your family member's fiancé: getting married because he doesn't know how to end the relationship. And I certainly didn't want to be living with someone who felt that way.
We decided to get married when DH graduated from college. It was quickly becoming apparent to me that staying together was going to require a lot of very expensive compromises for us, and they just didn't make sense to make if we weren't committed to each other for the long run. And so long as we were committed to each other anyway, it didn't make sense not to get married. Worst case scenario, if one of us failed to keep our commitments and the relationship ended, we were definitely at the point where getting divorced would be preferable to just breaking up, something which I hadn't really been able to imagine before that. We then proceeded to spend a year long distance while I finished school and DH went where the job was...
Post by charminglife on Jun 18, 2012 11:42:25 GMT -5
My SO and I have been together for 7 years and living together for about 5 years. We are not married or engaged. We moved in together because of a combination of things - finances, existing living conditions, and most importantly - we WANTED to live together, and we knew this because we both talked about it openly with eachother for a few months before we took the plunge.
I think the best advice that you can give your friend is to be open and honest with her fiance about her desires about marriage. I'd stay away from giving advice about ultimatums, etc, but help her explore her feelings about why she feels the need to get married and help her feel comfortable putting her feelings into words so that she can talk to her partner.
Post by curmudgeon on Jun 18, 2012 12:10:30 GMT -5
Grrr, it ate my reply
H moved in about 6 months after we met because he and his roommate had to find a new place and my roommate had just moved out. I wanted to wait for marriage, would have been fine living together indefinitely. He wanted to get married, after he proposed we fast-tracked the wedding and I have not regretted it. Honestly, I didn't notice much change in our relationship before and after the wedding, gradually over time, sure, but I think I was irrationally scared of marriage and have since realized that the relationship is the important part.
I agree with PP that it sounds like the move back to religion may be indicitive of issues in the relationship and/or may cause future issues. I wonder what he thinks WRT her feelings about "living in sin" and religion. It seems the expections in the relationship have changed in the past four years and rather than placating her or her keeping the status quo they need to figure out what they each want in the relationship. Honestly, if he is worth being married to he will be willing to try to understand and address her concerns, same for her. They both have very legitimate concerns and they need to figure out what they each want and what they are each willing to compromise on so neither is stuck/dragged into a situation that is not mutually desirable.
Post by basilosaurus on Jun 18, 2012 12:43:07 GMT -5
I've actually lived with 2 boyfriends, only one of whom I married. The other was in college, and we had already essentially lived together our junior year, so senior year we got a house together with a couple other friends. I had no intention of getting married, though. It was just a situation where we loved each other, loved being together, but there wasn't going to be a future after college. He mostly felt the same, not that we really talked about it much.
With h, I had to quit my job and move to another state, so we had many conversations about when I'd do that and the level of commitment I wanted to see from him first. Although I initially wanted a ring, I changed my mind and didn't need that. We got engaged about a month after I moved.
When we moved in together, we knew it was with the expectation that we would eventually get married. So, there was no difficulty or confusion involved.
This. We wanted to move in together (and save on rent haha) but knew we didn't want to get married at that moment right then. We were 22 at the time and our friend set really weren't getting married at that age. We eventually got married 3 years later so we weren't that far away from the concept in hindsight. My mom asked the same thing though when we moved in together. I couldn't answer it well back then either it's just we didn't want to get MARRIED right then...it seemed something that older people did LOL.
Also, both of our parents weren't really onboard with the idea either. For all family vacations/visits to my parents he had to sleep in a separate room or the basement (even though we were living together at the time). I'll never forget one night at my parents my mom said something to the affect of "it's OK terpsboyfriend you can bring your bags up to terpsfan's room" and I said "mom, it's ok really, insert eyerollley, he doesn't have to" and she insisted Yes, it's fine! I thought she had gone nuts.. Turns out, he had just asked them permission to marry me
Yes. In fact, I tried to post a response to this and it fell into the black hole. She is the one who is upset by the fact that she is "living in sin" (her words, not mine). and I think that if there was some sort of timetable, she would feel better about that...knowing there was an end point.
If she feels that it's "living in sin", why did she move in with him in the first place?
I'd be a little hesitant about advising this person - partly because it's something she'll hold against you when she decides to continue living with this guy despite her professed desire not to live in sin. I have a friend who kept setting ultimatums - "if Dave doesn't propose by Christmas, I'm going back to California". They're still "living in sin", and raising a child together 20 years later. Only now, she's no longer publicly seeking a wedding ring and took offense at everyone who asked her if they were going to get married when she got pregnant. I suspect she resents those who knew of her strong desire for marriage back then, because it runs counter to her opinion now that it's "just a piece of paper".
But I'm kind of cynical - when it comes to affairs of the heart, I don't think there's any logic or reason and people are going to do what they will so offering counsel is like trying to teach a dog to use silverware. It's a waste of your time and irritates the dog.
Yes. In fact, I tried to post a response to this and it fell into the black hole. She is the one who is upset by the fact that she is "living in sin" (her words, not mine). and I think that if there was some sort of timetable, she would feel better about that...knowing there was an end point.
If she feels that it's "living in sin", why did she move in with him in the first place?
I'd be a little hesitant about advising this person - partly because it's something she'll hold against you when she decides to continue living with this guy despite her professed desire not to live in sin. I have a friend who kept setting ultimatums - "if Dave doesn't propose by Christmas, I'm going back to California". They're still "living in sin", and raising a child together 20 years later. Only now, she's no longer publicly seeking a wedding ring and took offense at everyone who asked her if they were going to get married when she got pregnant. I suspect she resents those who knew of her strong desire for marriage back then, because it runs counter to her opinion now that it's "just a piece of paper".
But I'm kind of cynical - when it comes to affairs of the heart, I don't think there's any logic or reason and people are going to do what they will so offering counsel is like trying to teach a dog to use silverware. It's a waste of your time and irritates the dog.
I hear you. Down deep inside I don't think she'll change things. She's got too much invested in it. I think I will just be here if she has any questions about the faith. Of course, if she's serious about returning to the Church there is definitely going to be some conflict and, in the end, I also suspect she won't fully return to the Church either.