Again I don't love that they are in captivity, but WTF are they supposed to do with them? Toss them out to see so they can die?
:^) - Really? Really you don't know the obvious solution to this problem?
You don't breed them in the first place.
Okay but it's already been done. So you can't really change that fact. Again, I'm not really saying I'm all about SW, but with the exception of shutting the park down what else is there to do?
and OMG SEA! not SEE (lol I blame the fact that my kid was in the bath and I was distracted)
:^) - Really? Really you don't know the obvious solution to this problem?
You don't breed them in the first place.
Okay but it's already been done. So you can't really change that fact. Again, I'm not really saying I'm all about SW, but with the exception of shutting the park down what else is there to do?
and OMG SEA! not SEE (lol I blame the fact that my kid was in the bath and I was distracted)
Why is shutting down the park not an option?? In my opinion that is the only thing to be done with these establishments.
Why is shutting down the park not an option?? In my opinion that is the only thing to be done with these establishments.
That might be the ideal, but building tanks to house and care for those animals would be an astronomical undertaking.
I imagine that if they fined the companies like Sea World for their animal cruelty - or simply used the structures they've already built, they would have enough money to do so. So use the existing structures, and don't allow the general public in to gawk at them.
and also that wasn't really my question. My question was referring to the animals already in captivity.
You shut places like Sea World down that profit off of these animals and put them in some sort of an animal sanctuary. Just because they are already in captivity doesn't mean that we should be able to gawk at them and use them as show animals.
this is a solution, but what happens to the whales? Do they stay in captivity? They will not survive if they are set free.
Maybe it's because I'm in FL so I see all the good that SW does for rescuing and releasing injured and rehabilitated animals. They really do a bunch of stuff. I'm sure this doesn't make people happy, because they are still "show animals" but they have an entire show from dogs/cats (and I think a pig and a few other animals) that they have rescued from local kill shelters the show is pretty funny. These animals were about to be euthanized but now they get loved on daily, and are treated really well. I know it's not the same as being a pet in a home, but I think it's pretty awesome that they rescued them from kill shelters.
I read stuff multiple times a week about turtles, manatees and other animals they are releasing back to the wild.
So yeah this doesn't make up for the fact that they keep animals in captivity, but they're not all bad.
I know I sound like I LOVE SW, and while I enjoy the park, and I have *some* background and connection to the park, I'm not all about the animals being in captivity. I know they don't force the animals to perform, and given the circumstances they really do the best for the animals. (again - I'm not saying that captivity is best - because I know that this is what people are going to take from this)
I agree that the best solution would be to stop breeding. I probably should have just kept my mouth shut because ultimately I agree with you guys.
this is a solution, but what happens to the whales? Do they stay in captivity? They will not survive if they are set free.
Maybe it's because I'm in FL so I see all the good that SW does for rescuing and releasing injured and rehabilitated animals. They really do a bunch of stuff. I'm sure this doesn't make people happy, because they are still "show animals" but they have an entire show from dogs/cats (and I think a pig and a few other animals) that they have rescued from local kill shelters the show is pretty funny. These animals were about to be euthanized but now they get loved on daily, and are treated really well. I know it's not the same as being a pet in a home, but I think it's pretty awesome that they rescued them from kill shelters.
I read stuff multiple times a week about turtles, manatees and other animals they are releasing back to the wild.
So yeah this doesn't make up for the fact that they keep animals in captivity, but they're not all bad.
I know I sound like I LOVE SW, and while I enjoy the park, and I have *some* background and connection to the park, I'm not all about the animals being in captivity. I know they don't force the animals to perform, and given the circumstances they really do the best for the animals. (again - I'm not saying that captivity is best - because I know that this is what people are going to take from this)
I agree that the best solution would be to stop breeding. I probably should have just kept my mouth shut because ultimately I agree with you guys.
I understand where you're coming from, muffin.
We aren't down with the stupid shows and performing animals, and keeping such large animals in captivity, but they do other things that are good.
You're just down with continuing bad practices because it is too hard to stop them.
Post by game blouses on Aug 6, 2013 19:07:34 GMT -5
Loco Coco and muffin0, totally agree that Sea World does good for a lot of animals. They didn't comment on the film until after its release, but this would have been a good counterargument for them to bring up.
Ultimately, the focus of Blackfish is on how the circumstances of Tilikum's captivity led to Dawn Brancheau's death. It's really not all about how animals shouldn't be in captivity, but how orcas in particular are not well-suited for it. To me, the amazing part was hearing these trainers who had been totally in the system, and now are looking back at their participation in light of Dawn's tragedy.
You shut places like Sea World down that profit off of these animals and put them in some sort of an animal sanctuary. Just because they are already in captivity doesn't mean that we should be able to gawk at them and use them as show animals.
this is a solution, but what happens to the whales? Do they stay in captivity? They will not survive if they are set free.
See my above comments to LocoCoco regarding fining the companies and using existing establishments as sanctuaries for those unable to survive out of captivity.
Maybe it's because I'm in FL so I see all the good that SW does for rescuing and releasing injured and rehabilitated animals. They really do a bunch of stuff. I'm sure this doesn't make people happy, because they are still "show animals" but they have an entire show from dogs/cats (and I think a pig and a few other animals) that they have rescued from local kill shelters the show is pretty funny. These animals were about to be euthanized but now they get loved on daily, and are treated really well. I know it's not the same as being a pet in a home, but I think it's pretty awesome that they rescued them from kill shelters.
So they rescued these animals so they could make a profit off of them by using them in their funny show? Yes that makes them great people, I'm sure. How do you know that they at treated "really well"? You mention that they rescue and release injured animals. While that's all well and good, would you say that someone who is cruel to their dog/cat on a regular basis is okay because they volunteer their time at an animal shelter? It's not any different, except these companies profit off of it.
...
I agree that the best solution would be to stop breeding. I probably should have just kept my mouth shut because ultimately I agree with you guys.
The best solution is to yes, stop breeding but also shut places like this down. It doesn't matter how many articles they put out about the good they do, that doesn't mean they deserve to say in business and profit off of cruelty to animals.
I know they don't force the animals to perform, and given the circumstances they really do the best for the animals.
I'm curious, if you are saying they don't force the animals to perform, what exactly would you call it? Â The whales don't necessarily raise their fin to volunteer. Â They don't have a choice whether or not to get trained or to perform.
You're just down with continuing bad practices because it is too hard to stop them.
It is hard to stop them. I think it's more reasonable to try and change them rather than completely shut them down though. It would be great if laws were passed to stop the breeding and wild capture. But it won't happen. What can happen is better living for the animals. Less stress, no "performing," things like that.
Well, that is lame, defeatist talk! "It's too hard. Better not even try."
I am deathly afraid of cetaceans. Partly because they're just so damn smart.
So we have: Bigger than is even remotely necessary Lives in the scary ass ocean Hole in the top of the head BALEEN (shudder) Thought to have evolved from giant land bears (wtf?) Freakishly intelligent
Nope to all of that.
They should not be in captivity, and I certainly don't need them to perform dumb tricks for me and my kid. Let them be great in the ocean.
There is no way to prove that a whale or does or does not have psychosis.
Here's the definition: A severe mental disorder in which thought and emotions are so impaired that contact is lost with external reality.
There is no way to tell what a whale thinks or doesn't think.
Isn't it equally ridiculous to suggest that it's not possible. They are clearly intelligent animals that have deep family connections etc. I'm confused why it would be impossible to suggest that their emotions get so fucked up by being trapped in a fishbowl that they snap.
I mean, they absolutely shouldn't be trapping fresh whales, but the ones already in captivity? Breeding them?
We have chimps in zoos, mostly ones born in captivity and rescued. I don't know about your zoo but some of the apes in ours seem a little captivity related crazy.
Also, with an animal as smart as an orca, it seems that if they're already in captivity they probably enjoy the mental exercise of "training".
I mean, they absolutely shouldn't be trapping fresh whales, but the ones already in captivity? Breeding them?
We have chimps in zoos, mostly ones born in captivity and rescued. I don't know about your zoo but some of the apes in ours seem a little captivity related crazy.
Also, with an animal as smart as an orca, it seems that if they're already in captivity they probably enjoy the mental exercise of "training".
There is a huge difference between GOOD zoos and sea world. The San Fiego Wild Animal park has some of the only silver rhinos liledt on the planet and are working hard to breed them. They roam freely in a huge in closure with a habitat made so they feel like they are in the wild, and many of their breeding programs have resulted in repopulating animals in the wild.
Sea World gets its Dolphins from ones rounded up during the annual dolphin hunt in Japan. And Orcas live in TINY tanks compared to their size. That's a huge difference.
I mean, they absolutely shouldn't be trapping fresh whales, but the ones already in captivity? Breeding them?
We have chimps in zoos, mostly ones born in captivity and rescued. I don't know about your zoo but some of the apes in ours seem a little captivity related crazy.
Also, with an animal as smart as an orca, it seems that if they're already in captivity they probably enjoy the mental exercise of "training".
There is a huge difference between GOOD zoos and sea world. The San Fiego Wild Animal park has some of the only silver rhinos liledt on the planet and are working hard to breed them. They roam freely in a huge in closure with a habitat made so they feel like they are in the wild, and many of their breeding programs have resulted in repopulating animals in the wild.
Sea World gets its Dolphins from ones rounded up during the annual dolphin hunt in Japan. And Orcas live in TINY tanks compared to their size. That's a huge difference.
What is your source for this?
ETA: SeaWorld regularly contributes to rescue missions of animals caught in fishing lines, helps animals that are victims of events like the Gulf Oil Spill and as an organization FULLY FUND marine research.
I'm no fan at all of dolphin and whale shows, but some of the stuff in this post is out of control, not accurate and people are seeing the public face but not really how much a place like SeaWorld does for environmental causes.
and some of the clustered zoo comments are wtf worthy.
There is a huge difference between GOOD zoos and sea world. The San Fiego Wild Animal park has some of the only silver rhinos liledt on the planet and are working hard to breed them. They roam freely in a huge in closure with a habitat made so they feel like they are in the wild, and many of their breeding programs have resulted in repopulating animals in the wild.
Sea World gets its Dolphins from ones rounded up during the annual dolphin hunt in Japan. And Orcas live in TINY tanks compared to their size. That's a huge difference.
What is your source for this?
What part? The Dolphin part was from the documentary The Cove
The other parts are because I go to the San Diego Wild Animal park and Zoo every year. But if you give me a sec I can find real sources and not just my memory
I mean, they absolutely shouldn't be trapping fresh whales, but the ones already in captivity? Breeding them?
We have chimps in zoos, mostly ones born in captivity and rescued. I don't know about your zoo but some of the apes in ours seem a little captivity related crazy.
Also, with an animal as smart as an orca, it seems that if they're already in captivity they probably enjoy the mental exercise of "training".
If a human being was held in captivity, do you think they'd feel better about it with just a little regular mental training?
I mean, they absolutely shouldn't be trapping fresh whales, but the ones already in captivity? Breeding them?
We have chimps in zoos, mostly ones born in captivity and rescued. I don't know about your zoo but some of the apes in ours seem a little captivity related crazy.
Also, with an animal as smart as an orca, it seems that if they're already in captivity they probably enjoy the mental exercise of "training".
If a human being was held in captivity, do you think they'd feel better about it with just a little regular mental training?
Well, probably.
The occasional sudoku with a cookie when I win would be totally better than strolling around my tidy but boring apartment waiting for my next well balanced meal to show up.
And I apologize - I forgot that Sea world stopped getting dolphins from the Dolphin Slaughter in Japan in the 90s. Now they mainly breed their own and take some from the wild. But that documentary fucked me up.
What part? The Dolphin part was from the documentary The Cove
SeaWorld spokesperson Fred Jacobs has responded by saying that, "We think we're being unfairly criticized for something we're opposed to." He adds that, "SeaWorld opposes the dolphin hunts documented in The Cove. We do not purchase any animals from these hunts. More than 80 percent of the marine mammals in our care were born in our parks. We haven't collected a dolphin from the wild in decades."
Again, I loved the movie the Cove, but that part was inaccurate.
What part? The Dolphin part was from the documentary The Cove
SeaWorld spokesperson Fred Jacobs has responded by saying that, "We think we're being unfairly criticized for something we're opposed to." He adds that, "SeaWorld opposes the dolphin hunts documented in The Cove. We do not purchase any animals from these hunts. More than 80 percent of the marine mammals in our care were born in our parks. We haven't collected a dolphin from the wild in decades."
Again, I loved the movie the Cove, but that part was inaccurate.
Yeah I corrected that above - they stopped that practice in the 90s.
If a human being was held in captivity, do you think they'd feel better about it with just a little regular mental training?
Well, probably.
The occasional sudoku with a cookie when I win would be totally better than strolling around my tidy but boring apartment waiting for my next well balanced meal to show up.
You're missing my point - just because a living thing is provided with small comforts, that doesn't make the fact that they are held in captivity any better/acceptable.
Besides - the animal isn't enjoying training because of the mental stimulation - they are driven by the food reward.
Ugh. I've been struggling with how I felt about it ethically as its been a possibility for our trip.
Would I just find it as horrible as I found the circus when I went back to it in high school vs when I was a little kid? I was just telling Dh yesterday that I was trying to figure out how I stood on it. I loved it as a kid. And I've been dying to take my kid to an aquarium as I've been sure she'd love it and we don't have one near.
I think they fall in a different category than zoos. I used to work in zoo education and while I was torn then, the animals were mainly born and bred in captivity or rescued, rehabbed, but unable to return to the wild for various reasons. And I always valued the respect for animals and life that zoos could teach people. Sea world on the other hand, seems to be more show biz focus. I don't know. I'm so torn because I was really excited about the idea but then started realizing a few days ago that I might feel like an ass if I go. I'm going to have to think about it a lot.
Funny you posted today. I was researching a ton yesterday.