did we know Ann Romney's dad was an atheist who

[emmybean]

Again. She's dead. Funerals are for the living. I would think you needed the closure of a funeral and a place to visit her. The casket would bother me some, only because it deals with her actual body, but not enough to get really bugged by. Because the woman is dead. And those acts were done out of love for the grandma. Even if I would never not do exactly what a loved one wished after their death, I don't take great issue with anyone doing something harmless and personally fulfilling either.

[heightsyankee]

Jun 23, 2012 7:53:38 GMT -5 lys said:

Why would anyone care about this. It sounds like Morman bashing to me.

No. It would be the same if he had been baptized any other religion as well. No adult should be baptized without their consent.

[heightsyankee]

Jun 23, 2012 7:54:46 GMT -5 emmybean said:

Again. She's dead. Funerals are for the living. I would think you needed the closure of a funeral and a place to visit her. The casket would bother me some, only because it deals with her actual body, but not enough to get really bugged by. Because the woman is dead. And those acts were done out of love for the grandma. Even if I would never not do exactly what a loved one wished after their death, I don't take great issue with anyone doing something harmless and personally fulfilling either.

OK. I hear what you're saying but in both my anecdote and in the Romney case, I don't see it so much as just "love." There is an element of "I know better than you do what's good for you." That attitude is one of the things that I dislike about organized religion in the 1st place.

[2vermont]

Jun 23, 2012 8:17:04 GMT -5 heightsyankee said:

Jun 23, 2012 7:53:38 GMT -5 lys said:

Why would anyone care about this. It sounds like Morman bashing to me.

No. It would be the same if he had been baptized any other religion as well. No adult should be baptized without their consent.

I think baptizing the dead is just a Mormon thing though.

[heyjude]

1. It's not just a hoo-doo-voodoo baptism that has no meaning if you don't believe. Your name goes on a list of baptized Mormons. Is that how you want history to remember you?

2. Would the people who don't care about this have a problem if someone danced on the grave of a loved one in a disrespectful way?

[heightsyankee]

Jun 23, 2012 9:37:22 GMT -5 heyjude said:

1. It's not just a hoo-doo-voodoo baptism that has no meaning is you don't believe. Your name goes on a list of baptized Mormons. Is that how you want history to remember you?

2. Would the people who don't care about this have a problem if someone danced on the grave of a loved one in a disrespectful way?

3. Or what if a Christian was given a Muslim burial ritual?

[Deleted]

Jun 22, 2012 14:34:32 GMT -5 mcsangel2 said:

I actually don't think this is a big deal at all, esp. compared to, say, baptizing deceased Jewish persons.

The reason I feel that way in this specific case, is because he was ATHEIST. He had no ties to any organized religious beliefs. This would have meant nothing at all to him. A ritual with no meaning.

Ok, that didn't quite come out the way I meant. It's disrespectful, but not in the same way as doing it to someone who had religious beliefs (other than LDS).

An atheist has specific religious beliefs. A belief that there is no God or that religion is a con, for example. If a person has the free will to be baptized as a Mormon and chooses not to do so within their life, then I think it's disrespecful of the Mormons not to honor their wishes. The only case I can think of where it may be permissable is if someone lived their life secretly as a Mormon because persecution didn't allow them to proclaim their faith.

And it may not "hurt" me to be registered as a Mormon or a Nazi or a Republican after my death, but it's still wrong and a damned lie.

[bte4242]

I was just about to ask this too.
MIL wants to baptize DS (catholic) and she figures since I'm an atheist I wont care. It's for "her comfort". I said no and reminded her that as the parent we do things from my (and Dh's) beliefs/viewpoints.[/quote]

This is what happened to my mom when I was a baby. The grandparents NEEDED me to be baptized Catholic. My mom refused. In the end, she she had me dedicated at a Unitarian Church, and had the word God taken out of the service. Actually, religion wasn't mentioned at all, it was more about life and the future. My grandparents left, saying that it was the most beautiful thing they've seen, and didn't even realize God or religion was never mentioned!

[emmybean]

Jun 23, 2012 9:37:22 GMT -5 heyjude said:

1. It's not just a hoo-doo-voodoo baptism that has no meaning if you don't believe. Your name goes on a list of baptized Mormons. Is that how you want history to remember you?

2. Would the people who don't care about this have a problem if someone danced on the grave of a loved one in a disrespectful way?

1. Is some self important bullshit. The only people who care enough to remember me will know the real story, and if you are referencing more famous people, it is wildly known that the Mormon church does this and why. It is a stupid and pointless argument because it is not a legitimate point of logical confusion.

2. Literally dancing on someone's grave in disrespect implies an intent that is not present in this case. It's not a congruent comparison.

3. The actual faith bothers me not. If the family was Muslim and felt the need for a Muslim burial, then so be it.

[KateAggie]

I'm assuming the date of the baptism is also listed, no?

FTR, I said that I see no big deal if they baptize members of their own family, not Jews who died in the Holocaust.

[ChillyMcFreeze]

I just finished watching the episode of Big Love where they baptize by proxy Margene's dead mother. That is all.

[jigsy]

Jun 23, 2012 9:38:38 GMT -5 heightsyankee said:

Jun 23, 2012 9:37:22 GMT -5 heyjude said:

1. It's not just a hoo-doo-voodoo baptism that has no meaning is you don't believe. Your name goes on a list of baptized Mormons. Is that how you want history to remember you?

2. Would the people who don't care about this have a problem if someone danced on the grave of a loved one in a disrespectful way?

3. Or what if a Christian was given a Muslim burial ritual?

I'm not 100% familiar with Muslim belief and rituals, but I'm not sure this is an exact comparison since I think the person being buried according to Muslim belief would need to be Muslim to get all the benefit of the ritual...but that's not really here or there.

If a family member believed that the only way their deceased loved one could only become saved/exhalted/reach paradise/whatever by doing specific rituals after their passing, I see no harm in it and I see it as a loving thing.

I see posthumous baptisms by family members not any different than favor burnings, praying the deceased, and any number of other rituals performed by just about every religion on behalf of the dead for the safety of their souls in the afterlife.

[heightsyankee]

Jun 23, 2012 11:53:08 GMT -5 emmybean said:

Jun 23, 2012 9:37:22 GMT -5 heyjude said:

1. It's not just a hoo-doo-voodoo baptism that has no meaning if you don't believe. Your name goes on a list of baptized Mormons. Is that how you want history to remember you?

2. Would the people who don't care about this have a problem if someone danced on the grave of a loved one in a disrespectful way?

1. Is some self important bullshit. The only people who care enough to remember me will know the real story, and if you are referencing more famous people, it is wildly known that the Mormon church does this and why. It is a stupid and pointless argument because it is not a legitimate point of logical confusion.

2. Literally dancing on someone's grave in disrespect implies an intent that is not present in this case. It's not a congruent comparison.

3. The actual faith bothers me not. If the family was Muslim and felt the need for a Muslim burial, then so be it.

Well, I am going to go out on a limb here and say you are the exception. If you're a person of faith, you are one of the very few who would be willing to let their child make them another religion posthumously. My ILs are Southern Baptist. If I was a Muslim and my husband converted to my religion, there is no way in damn hell they'd be ok with us burying them in a Muslim ritual. That would be our religion, not theirs. Additionally, because their son is a backslider who married an Atheist, we would never publicly renounce their religion for them after their death. Even if only the people who knew them and cared for them "knew the real story" it would be unfair for them to have their faith turned upside down after their death. Disrespectful. Full stop.

I am a non-believer but I have a lot of respect for my friends and family who have faith. I let them make that decision for themselves because I feel they can. I hope every single one of my religious friends finds out that they were right in their faith and what **they want for themselves** is waiting after they leave their earthly body. What this comes down to is that there are people who are driven by their faith to feel superior and that they can make a better decision in death than an individual is able to make in life.

[KateAggie]

Well said, Jigsy.

I don't see how this is about "feeling superior." This is about believing that the only way for a loved one to have happiness for eternity is through this specific religion, and having one more chance to share that with them.

[ringstrue]

I don't think I could get up in arms about a child baptizing a dead parent. DD can baptize me all the religions she wants if it makes her feel better.

Going around and baptizing other families dead loved ones is not going to go over well and expecting them to be OK with it is ridiculous.

[emmybean]

Jun 23, 2012 16:17:46 GMT -5 heightsyankee said:

Jun 23, 2012 11:53:08 GMT -5 emmybean said:

1. Is some self important bullshit. The only people who care enough to remember me will know the real story, and if you are referencing more famous people, it is wildly known that the Mormon church does this and why. It is a stupid and pointless argument because it is not a legitimate point of logical confusion.

2. Literally dancing on someone's grave in disrespect implies an intent that is not present in this case. It's not a congruent comparison.

3. The actual faith bothers me not. If the family was Muslim and felt the need for a Muslim burial, then so be it.

Well, I am going to go out on a limb here and say you are the exception. If you're a person of faith, you are one of the very few who would be willing to let their child make them another religion posthumously. My ILs are Southern Baptist. If I was a Muslim and my husband converted to my religion, there is no way in damn hell they'd be ok with us burying them in a Muslim ritual. That would be our religion, not theirs. Additionally, because their son is a backslider who married an Atheist, we would never publicly renounce their religion for them after their death. Even if only the people who knew them and cared for them "knew the real story" it would be unfair for them to have their faith turned upside down after their death. Disrespectful. Full stop.

I am a non-believer but I have a lot of respect for my friends and family who have faith. I let them make that decision for themselves because I feel they can. I hope every single one of my religious friends finds out that they were right in their faith and what **they want for themselves** is waiting after they leave their earthly body. What this comes down to is that there are people who are driven by their faith to feel superior and that they can make a better decision in death than an individual is able to make in life.

I am only speaking for myself and my lack of belief. I actually quite understand why someone of faith would take issue with being "disrespected" after death. I just don't agree with it at all because I don't believe there is anything after death. I find it highly amusing that other self proclaimed atheists take such great offense to the idea of something like being baptized being done *to them* after death, tho. It's a foolish and entertaining little ritual that helps a family cope and does nothing to the deceased. Like I said, it seems incredibly self important for an atheist to be worried about respect once they cease to exist. When I die I want to be cremated and for my loved ones to do whatever they feel helps them cope best. And if someone takes great offense to me being burned, they can hurry me if it helps them. Why? Because that's the only thing they will have control of when I go, and I won't exist to have an opinion or anything else, So let them deal with their grief however they see fit.

Also, as I mentioned earlier, *I* would never go against my parents---or any one else's---wishes in regards to their burial and after-life goings ons. I just don't see the outrage over something like this because it is completely meaningless to everyone other than Ann and Mitt (and the Mormon church I suppose) and affects no one. Why give it more weight than it needs to have?

[Michelle]

I can see how this is offensive. Absolutely. I also think KateAggie makes a good point about it being out of love.

To me it is just weird. I am a believer and feel I have a strong relationship with God. In this life I develop my faith and my choices here determine my fate in the next life. I don't believe that if a person outright denies God in this life, that they will get a pass into Heaven as if they always believed if we sprinkle some holy water on the body their soul no longer inhabits.

So while it is a gesture of hope and love, it is futile and disrespectful to the corporeal remains and to their name since they will be on the "list" going forward.

Edited for clarity.

[heyjude]

I'm not an atheist. I have my own set of beliefs that I have spent 30+ years privately contemplating. I don't want them washed away by the Mormons and memorialized on paper as something else. I think it's disrespectful to the choices I have made.

[2vermont]

Jun 25, 2012 7:45:46 GMT -5 heyjude said:

I'm not an atheist. I have my own set of beliefs that I have spent 30+ years privately contemplating. I don't want them washed away by the Mormons and memorialized on paper as something else. I think it's disrespectful to the choices I have made.

But if you don't believe there is anything to a Mormon post death baptism, why would you say that your beliefs were washed away?

[heyjude]

Because its disrespectful to my beliefs. And it puts me on record as a Mormon which I am so clearly not.

[emmybean]

Jun 25, 2012 7:45:46 GMT -5 heyjude said:

I'm not an atheist. I have my own set of beliefs that I have spent 30+ years privately contemplating. I don't want them washed away by the Mormons and memorialized on paper as something else. I think it's disrespectful to the choices I have made.

Why are you so worried about what a piece of paper says after you are dead? Why are the Mormons so frightening?

[Deleted]

I am an atheist. I am not a Mormon, I don't want to be a Mormon in any way, shape or form. Therefore the idea that someone is going to perform their rinky dink ceremony over my grave after I am gone to put me on the Mormon membership rolls is offensive to me. If my family or friends who are religious want to say a silent prayer to themselves for my soul after I am gone, so be it. I think where I draw the line is the actual ceremonial baptism and putting something in writing indicating my conversion when I have nothing to do with it.

[emmybean]

Jun 25, 2012 9:18:45 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

Jun 25, 2012 9:07:28 GMT -5 emmybean said:

Why are you so worried about what a piece of paper says after you are dead? Why are the Mormons so frightening?

I think it has less to do with Mormons being skeery and more to do with anger over being unwillingly appropriated into someone else's spiritualality, being used to validate someone's faith.

So it's ok to tell someone their faith is less important than yours after death?

[Deleted]

When it has to do with adding me to their membership rolls, yes, their faith is indeed less important than mine even after I am dead.

[heightsyankee]

Jun 25, 2012 9:18:45 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

Jun 25, 2012 9:07:28 GMT -5 emmybean said:

Why are you so worried about what a piece of paper says after you are dead? Why are the Mormons so frightening?

I think it has less to do with Mormons being skeery and more to do with anger over being unwillingly appropriated into someone else's spiritualality, being used to validate someone's faith.

Yes. I said that before- it's not just Mormons. I wouldn't want to be baptized or brought in to any religion on record when that is not who I am. It seems only Mormons have the audacity to think this is ok, so that would explain why the conversation is Mormon heavy, but if my ILs decided to baptize me Baptist after I was dead, I would be equally as annoyed and offended.

[heightsyankee]

Jun 25, 2012 9:20:41 GMT -5 emmybean said:

Jun 25, 2012 9:18:45 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

I think it has less to do with Mormons being skeery and more to do with anger over being unwillingly appropriated into someone else's spiritualality, being used to validate someone's faith.

So it's ok to tell someone their faith is less important than yours after death?

Sure- that's what they're telling me. That I have been wrong my whole life and that they are right; that their faith is the only way and usurps my own beliefs.

How about a mutual respect that they can have their belief system and I can have mine and they can love me and maybe, in their minds, wish more for me but still have respect for the person I was and the decisions I made?

[emmybean]

Jun 25, 2012 9:35:51 GMT -5 heightsyankee said:

Jun 25, 2012 9:20:41 GMT -5 emmybean said:

So it's ok to tell someone their faith is less important than yours after death?

Sure- that's what they're telling me. That I have been wrong my whole life and that they are right; that their faith is the only way and usurps my own beliefs.

How about a mutual respect that they can have their belief system and I can have mine and they can love me and maybe, in their minds, wish more for me but still have respect for the person I was and the decisions I made?

They aren't telling you. You're dead. And telling them that even tho you are dead, they can't grieve the way they want and can't fulfill their faiths tenants for getting in to heaven. Therefore your faith (or lack thereof) is more important even after you have "met your maker" than theirs.

[heightsyankee]

Jun 25, 2012 9:40:09 GMT -5 emmybean said:

Jun 25, 2012 9:35:51 GMT -5 heightsyankee said:

Sure- that's what they're telling me. That I have been wrong my whole life and that they are right; that their faith is the only way and usurps my own beliefs.

How about a mutual respect that they can have their belief system and I can have mine and they can love me and maybe, in their minds, wish more for me but still have respect for the person I was and the decisions I made?

They aren't telling you. You're dead. And telling them that even tho you are dead, they can't grieve the way they want and can't fulfill their faiths tenants for getting in to heaven. Therefore your faith (or lack thereof) is more important even after you have "met your maker" than theirs.

Exactly. My decisions about who I am ARE more important. I have lost family members and have grieved greatly for them. Part of the process, though, was respecting their wishes. Whether it's a living will or not wanting any kid of funeral or, as an Atheist, having a funeral in their preferred church, it's a matter of respect. My right to grieve does not take precedence over their life. Death is nothingness when you don't believe in heaven, so it is the life you live and the decisions you make during that time that are the most important. That should be respected by your loved ones.

[Jermys]

Jun 25, 2012 9:44:37 GMT -5 heightsyankee said:

Jun 25, 2012 9:40:09 GMT -5 emmybean said:

They aren't telling you. You're dead. And telling them that even tho you are dead, they can't grieve the way they want and can't fulfill their faiths tenants for getting in to heaven. Therefore your faith (or lack thereof) is more important even after you have "met your maker" than theirs.

Exactly. My decisions about who I am ARE more important. I have lost family members and have grieved greatly for them. Part of the process, though, was respecting their wishes. Whether it's a living will or not wanting any kid of funeral or, as an Atheist, having a funeral in their preferred church, it's a matter of respect. My right to grieve does not take precedence over their life. Death is nothingness when you don't believe in heaven, so it is the life you live and the decisions you make during that time that are the most important. That should be respected by your loved ones.

Heightsyankee, YES! Especially the bolded!

[emmybean]

Jun 25, 2012 9:44:37 GMT -5 heightsyankee said:

Jun 25, 2012 9:40:09 GMT -5 emmybean said:

They aren't telling you. You're dead. And telling them that even tho you are dead, they can't grieve the way they want and can't fulfill their faiths tenants for getting in to heaven. Therefore your faith (or lack thereof) is more important even after you have "met your maker" than theirs.

Exactly. My decisions about who I am ARE more important. I have lost family members and have grieved greatly for them. Part of the process, though, was respecting their wishes. Whether it's a living will or not wanting any kid of funeral or, as an Atheist, having a funeral in their preferred church, it's a matter of respect. My right to grieve does not take precedence over their life. Death is nothingness when you don't believe in heaven, so it is the life you live and the decisions you make during that time that are the most important. That should be respected by your loved ones.

The dead are more important than the living IYO. Good to know.

To me it's just the opposite. And while I can understand your POV, I just flat out don't agree with it. Especially because you say you are a nonbeliever.