As a teacher, this is aggravating. Even if I was grading for participation, I always looked at what the students wrote, and made comments. Even with math, you can see the answer, and look at the work to see where they went wrong, right?
As a parent, it's infuriating. If my kid were assigned homework and I knew they spent even ninety seconds on it when that shit wasn't going to get a second glance, heads would roll.
It's second grade. How on earth is homework going to inform my instruction other than who is doing it and who is not? We don't give grades for homework, not even participation grades. I'm also not going to waste my time going over homework, when can use that time to look at in class work, make small groups and create teaching points from work that actually informs my instruction.
What's even the point of giving homework in your class then if 1) you don't check it, 2) it's not meaningful, 3) it's not a grade?
What subjects are your responsibility in second grade? Maybe this is my disconnect.
Also, thanks rugbywife. That's a helpful explanation of why/how ds does math the way he does.
He's doing the techniques. He's perfectly capable of the work, but I still think the homework sheet tonight was challenging for reasons unrelated to the math.
I didn't want to get into the level of complexity of the questions (or the reading stuff)...that's between you and the teacher. Frankly, I am not a big fan of homework, period, I think most of it is a waste of time and I rarely gave any as a teacher.
I did want you to understand why he was being expected to explain his thinking.
I do also think that teachers/administrators/schools need to do a better job of explaining the new trends in mathematics instruction. I do think there is a definitive shift from where we used to be and parents need to be informed of what the changes are AND why they are happening. We expose our teachers to the research all the time - it wouldn't hurt to share it with parent as well.
I didn't want to get into the level of complexity of the questions (or the reading stuff)...that's between you and the teacher. Frankly, I am not a big fan of homework, period, I think most of it is a waste of time and I rarely gave any as a teacher.
I did want you to understand why he was being expected to explain his thinking.
I do also think that teachers/administrators/schools need to do a better job of explaining the new trends in mathematics instruction. I do think there is a definitive shift from where we used to be and parents need to be informed of what the changes are AND why they are happening. We expose our teachers to the research all the time - it wouldn't hurt to share it with parent as well.
Thank you. It really was very helpful.
i don't mind the new math - it kind of make sense. But part of the problem is that he wasn't asked to explain anything - he was given 4 lines, numbered 1-4, that he was apparently supposed to fill out, in some prearranged manner. But, since he didn't pay attention in class, he didn't know what the lines were for. I'm sure it was explaining the steps. I'll talk to him about it in the morning, and see if that resonates at all.
Okay, traditional algorithm - explanation: I stacked the numbers, first I added the numbers in the one column, carried the one and added it to the sum of the numbers in the tens column. My answer was 112.
56 +56 112
Breaking numbers apart into tens and ones - explanation: I split the tens from the ones, so first I add the tens (50+50=100) and then I added the ones (6+6=12) and then I added those two together to get 112.
Friendly/Compatible numbers: I know I can add 55+55 and get 110. I know I still have 2 left to add because I subtracted 1 from each number to start. So I get 110 plus 2, which is 112.
Counting on by 10s: I start at 56 and at 10, to 66, add 10, to 76, add 10, to 86, add 10 to 98, add 10, to 106 and then add 6 more to get 112.
There's 4 ways, there are more but some strategies work better with some numbers than others.
For example...
98+75 - using the traditional algorithm works here but compensation works better:
I make 98 into 100 because it is easier to add to 100. That means I need to subtract 2 from 75, giving me 73. I can add 100 to 73 in my head and get 173.
I don't understand why you would want to do all this necessary subtraction rather than simply adding. It honestly makes no sense to me and seems to be making things unnecessarily complicated.
And I was a champ at showing my work when I was in school b/c if you fucked it up, you could still get partial credit, so I get the concept, but for adding two digit numbers? I stacked them and added them together, I mean, what more is there to say?
God, I am glad I'm not having kids. I LOVE math and trying to help with this stuff would kill me.
I agree. I guess it makes sense if the kid can choose the method that makes the most sense to me but to me it looks like making mountains out of number moles.
Homework is done at home, if it's too easy, make it harder yourself! I fact have him make it harder! I don't think you can expect the teacher to differentiate homework. That is asking way too much!
Ok, so as a teacher, you would be fine with me returning the homework log saying "didn't do the math worksheet because it was unclear and the problems were too easy, did multiplication and counting by 6s instead. Didn't read assigned book for 20 min, because it took 90 seconds, read Percy Jackson novel for 45 minutes instead"?
You wouldn't think I was totally obnoxious and the most difficult parent ever if I did this?
I've always thought that we needed to do the assigned homework, even when it was clearly not appropriate, followed by the additional/supplemental stuff.
also, on a separate issue: he has a differentiated education plan - differentiated homework is exactly what the school board here says he's supposed to get!
Huh. Thanks. I wasn't trying to be a bitch - this is the way I was taught in the olden days, so I really did not understand. I like to keep things as simple as possible. But dude, without your prior explanation, if my imaginary kid brought home homework that did not involve stacking, I would have no clue how to help.
Addition isn't really the best example for this, multiplication is. A lot of parents have their kids 'learn' their multiplication tables...the thing is, they can memorize the 'facts' but that doesn't mean they understand the actual concept of what multiplication MEANS in terms of what is happening to the numbers.
So a student might be able to stack two two-digit numbers and perform a multiplication using a traditional algorithm but that doesn't mean they will understand what they are doing when they perform the multiplication, they don't understand that they are making 13 groups of 13...so, if they make an error in their work, and end up with a number that is, let's say, less than 100, they can't look at their work and realize that it can't possibly be less than 100 because 10 groups of 10 would be 100 so 13 groups of 13 has to be more than 100.
Where you really see the gaps in mathematical understanding in multiplication is when you arrive at division word problems. There are two types of division questions, partitive and quotative. Doing standard division algorithms doesn't allow for the distinction between partitive and quotative questions, which is what is needed in order to conceptually understand division word problems.
edits made for clarity.
Thanks. This makes more sense to me.
If you don't mind me asking, what are partitive and quotative questions? I find this all facsinating. I fucking love math, but it made me sad because once I got to college, it stopped being "math" so we had to end our relationship.
I don't understand why you would want to do all this necessary subtraction rather than simply adding. It honestly makes no sense to me and seems to be making things unnecessarily complicated.
And I was a champ at showing my work when I was in school b/c if you fucked it up, you could still get partial credit, so I get the concept, but for adding two digit numbers? I stacked them and added them together, I mean, what more is there to say?
God, I am glad I'm not having kids. I LOVE math and trying to help with this stuff would kill me.
It makes no sense to you but it makes sense to some kids...and that's what matters...if their strategy shows strong NUMBER SENSE, and helps them arrive at the right answer, it is a meaningful strategy. Being able to see where to subtract in order to add more easily shows greater knowledge and understanding of numbers and their value than simple stacking does.
I struggled a lot in math growing up. We did CGI math in our education theory class that covered all the things you covered and it just made so much sense to me. Teaching one specific way to solve a problem when there are several ways to come to it boggled my mind. It's restricting.
It's about helping kids find a process that works best for them while still ensuring that they understand the process. One of the things we talked about was how some kids will learn how to do stacking and will have no real understanding of place value and then are screwed when it comes to multiplication and such. The showing steps, in our class at least, was to show how you were processing the problem and coming to the final answer, not a rote "I stacked and added this column and then carried this and..." It's more of a way to explain your own mental process so the teacher can tell how you're developing and processing the material. It's also a way of explaining it back to yourself, saying "Yes. I know how I got this answer, and how I would apply it in other situations."
For example, I don't do stacking when I add. Ever. I was taught that way growing up and I hated it. It doesn't make sense to me. When I add, I write all the numbers down and then break them down into 10s and 5s and leftovers. I make new columns to the side as I go. It's complicated to explain, but that's just how I do it and it's what makes sense to me. If I was asked to write down steps for how I got 87+46, it'd become 50+30+40...50+70...50+50+20..120 7+6...5+5+2+1...10+3..13 120+13...133. It'd show I understood place value, how I got my answer and why my answer was logical and sensible. It's also a way for them to learn to check over the work quickly. Asking, do I understand how I got this? Does my answer make sense? It's definitely a helpful process when you move into multiplication and division.
The school I did student teaching at was using CGI math and was getting a lot of pushback from parents. They ended having something like an open house at the beginning of the year that focused just on math. Parents could come in, do some problems and games using the new method, explore student math journals, listen to a quick lecture on the concepts and such. Parents seemed to really enjoy it.
Addition isn't really the best example for this, multiplication is. A lot of parents have their kids 'learn' their multiplication tables...the thing is, they can memorize the 'facts' but that doesn't mean they understand the actual concept of what multiplication MEANS in terms of what is happening to the numbers.
So a student might be able to stack two two-digit numbers and perform a multiplication using a traditional algorithm but that doesn't mean they will understand what they are doing when they perform the multiplication, they don't understand that they are making 13 groups of 13...so, if they make an error in their work, and end up with a number that is, let's say, less than 100, they can't look at their work and realize that it can't possibly be less than 100 because 10 groups of 10 would be 100 so 13 groups of 13 has to be more than 100.
Where you really see the gaps in mathematical understanding in multiplication is when you arrive at division word problems. There are two types of division questions, partitive and quotative. Doing standard division algorithms doesn't allow for the distinction between partitive and quotative questions, which is what is needed in order to conceptually understand division word problems.
edits made for clarity.
Thanks. This makes more sense to me.
If you don't mind me asking, what are partitive and quotative questions? I find this all facsinating. I fucking love math, but it made me sad because once I got to college, it stopped being "math" so we had to end our relationship.
absolutely! To be honest, I didn't know those two specific words until last year...I knew the concept but not the terms...and of course it was my student teacher, still in teacher's college, who came in and 'schooled' me (and the kids!) on it all!
Let me share one more HUGE math pet peeve (just cause):
When teachers teach kids to say 3.14 as three point one four or three decimal fourteen. That number CAN ONLY be said three and fourteen hundredths. A lot of teachers don't understand why it matters. But it does. Decimals are one of the MOST difficult concepts for students to conceptualize (all parts of a whole are, be it fractions, decimals or percentages - although percentages the least so).
When we teach kids to say 3point14 they see it as two WHOLE numbers separated by punctuation. They don't conceptualize that the .14 is actually a part of a whole. Even saying decimal fourteen doesn't really help, because it is still assigning it a whole number value. It doesn't represent a whole number, it represents hundredths of a number, 14 of them in fact. The way we SAY things in math makes a difference. 4.5 isn't four point five. It is four and five tenths. And then all of a sudden the kids might be able to make connections between 4.5 and 4 and 5/10!!! Because they are said the same way! Imagine that! This is why communication in math is SO important.
It's second grade. How on earth is homework going to inform my instruction other than who is doing it and who is not? We don't give grades for homework, not even participation grades. I'm also not going to waste my time going over homework, when can use that time to look at in class work, make small groups and create teaching points from work that actually informs my instruction.
What's even the point of giving homework in your class then if 1) you don't check it, 2) it's not meaningful, 3) it's not a grade?
What subjects are your responsibility in second grade? Maybe this is my disconnect.
This is out of genuine curiosity -- how the f did you even do that?
Maybe this is because I teach on the secondary level (7th and 8th this year, 9th in years prior) and I have 110 students, but there is no way in hell I can sit down and grade all of their classwork, let alone their homework. I'm going to quickly glance at it, check a couple numbers for accuracy (or check while they're doing it), and move along, because ain't nobody got time for that.
And I don't think this is aggravating, either. They're going to get feedback when it matters. Why inundate them with it?
ETA: Oh, and I teach English, so it takes me a loooooooooooooot longer.
It makes no sense to you but it makes sense to some kids...and that's what matters...if their strategy shows strong NUMBER SENSE, and helps them arrive at the right answer, it is a meaningful strategy. Being able to see where to subtract in order to add more easily shows greater knowledge and understanding of numbers and their value than simple stacking does.
Huh. Thanks. I wasn't trying to be a bitch - this is the way I was taught in the olden days, so I really did not understand. I like to keep things as simple as possible. But dude, without your prior explanation, if my imaginary kid brought home homework that did not involve stacking, I would have no clue how to help.
I was taught stacking, too, and I can't do it in my head. I would have been much better off learning a couple of different ways to get the right answer.
What's even the point of giving homework in your class then if 1) you don't check it, 2) it's not meaningful, 3) it's not a grade?
What subjects are your responsibility in second grade? Maybe this is my disconnect.
This is out of genuine curiosity -- how the f did you even do that?
Maybe this is because I teach on the secondary level (7th and 8th this year, 9th in years prior) and I have 110 students, but there is no way in hell I can sit down and grade all of their classwork, let alone their homework. I'm going to quickly glance at it, check a couple numbers for accuracy (or check while they're doing it), and move along, because ain't nobody got time for that.
And I don't think this is aggravating, either. They're going to get feedback when it matters. Why inundate them with it?
ETA: Oh, and I teach English, so it takes me a loooooooooooooot longer.
I taught English 7-12. 8th Grade English, English I, Publications, Communications, and Novels. I'd plan to not give classes homework that was due on the same day, and I would make the assignments short and relevant for the most part. It helped that I had two sections of 8th/English I and the other classes didn't get as much homework. It did take forever.
You said they'll get feedback when it matters, so what do you give feedback on?
This is out of genuine curiosity -- how the f did you even do that?
Maybe this is because I teach on the secondary level (7th and 8th this year, 9th in years prior) and I have 110 students, but there is no way in hell I can sit down and grade all of their classwork, let alone their homework. I'm going to quickly glance at it, check a couple numbers for accuracy (or check while they're doing it), and move along, because ain't nobody got time for that.
And I don't think this is aggravating, either. They're going to get feedback when it matters. Why inundate them with it?
ETA: Oh, and I teach English, so it takes me a loooooooooooooot longer.
I taught English 7-12. 8th Grade English, English I, Publications, Communications, and Novels. I'd plan to not give classes homework that was due on the same day, and I would make the assignments short and relevant for the most part. It helped that I had two sections of 8th/English I and the other classes didn't get as much homework. It did take forever.
You said they'll get feedback when it matters, so what do you give feedback on?
I spend their independent classwork time giving them immediate feedback -- I make sure that, at some point, I'm having a (short) conversation with every kid in the class. They submit every essay twice -- once in rough draft form, with my comments, and then once in final copy, with my comments and then a final grade. They have shorter quizzes at least once a week (more formative than summative) that let me know where they're at and what we need to go over.
I've just found that if I inundate my kids with feedback, they're not going to read it. It's more, like, "what did I get on this?" rather than "how can I make this better?"
Post by rugbywife on Sept 30, 2013 21:16:02 GMT -5
Oh...if any teachers want more examples of questions that lend themselves to multiple strategies...check out these two books. She posts a question of the week on this page too, this week's is good! I got this book last year and I love it.
I taught English 7-12. 8th Grade English, English I, Publications, Communications, and Novels. I'd plan to not give classes homework that was due on the same day, and I would make the assignments short and relevant for the most part. It helped that I had two sections of 8th/English I and the other classes didn't get as much homework. It did take forever.
You said they'll get feedback when it matters, so what do you give feedback on?
I spend their independent classwork time giving them immediate feedback -- I make sure that, at some point, I'm having a (short) conversation with every kid in the class. They submit every essay twice -- once in rough draft form, with my comments, and then once in final copy, with my comments and then a final grade. They have shorter quizzes at least once a week (more formative than summative) that let me know where they're at and what we need to go over.
I've just found that if I inundate my kids with feedback, they're not going to read it. It's more, like, "what did I get on this?" rather than "how can I make this better?"
I get that. I didn't give my students quizzes and used homework assignments as formative assessments when introducing topics. This is where they got a lot of their feedback. The feedback wasn't always focused on whether what they did was correct, a lot of the time it was commenting on what they said to create a discussion, and they were always really eager to get the feedback. They had their semester exams, but during the quarter they had mini projects and short/long essay questions. I tried to make their assignments and projects rigorous and relevant, and I tried to work a lot with them on their writing. To me, their homework was a gauge as to how their writing skills were coming along.
I spend their independent classwork time giving them immediate feedback -- I make sure that, at some point, I'm having a (short) conversation with every kid in the class. They submit every essay twice -- once in rough draft form, with my comments, and then once in final copy, with my comments and then a final grade. They have shorter quizzes at least once a week (more formative than summative) that let me know where they're at and what we need to go over.
I've just found that if I inundate my kids with feedback, they're not going to read it. It's more, like, "what did I get on this?" rather than "how can I make this better?"
I get that. I didn't give my students quizzes and used homework assignments as formative assessments when introducing topics. This is where they got a lot of their feedback. The feedback wasn't always focused on whether what they did was correct, a lot of the time it was commenting on what they said to create a discussion, and they were always really eager to get the feedback. They had their semester exams, but during the quarter they had mini projects and short/long essay questions. I tried to make their assignments and projects rigorous and relevant, and I tried to work a lot with them on their writing. To me, their homework was a gauge as to how their writing skills were coming along.
Now I'm just starting to miss my students
Thanks for responding. It is so interesting to see how other people do things! I'm in an urban environment and our kids come in waaaaaay behind, a lot of the time, so I spend a lot of time with them reviewing their writing skills, specifically their mechanics. It is so important. I do the mini-projects and short essay questions too, pretty frequently. They take FOREVER to grade, but it's cool to see how far they can come.
And even though they drive you nuuuuuts.....you do miss them. I'm lucky that I've been at the same school for a bit now, and we're 6th-12th, so my former students are wandering around the halls and, well, still driving me nuts.
I thought simply showing your work was enough to explain how you got the answer rather than just writing the answer down.
This is what we did when we were kids. When I used the word "new" I meant it was a new technique for those of us who never had to explain in written words the logic of math. You could show your work on paper, explain how to do it in class, but weren't required to write out your steps, one by one, on a regular basis.
To whoever said this may help kids bad at math (Nic?), I can dispute that. This only makes math incredibly hard for M. He can calculate things based on methods he's learned, but don't ask him to explain why it works or anything about the concept of math. That's much harder for him to do.
Personally, I think it's great. It not only makes sure that kids understand the concepts of math, but teaches logic skills and step-by-step thinking.
Also, thanks rugbywife. That's a helpful explanation of why/how ds does math the way he does.
He's doing the techniques. He's perfectly capable of the work, but I still think the homework sheet tonight was challenging for reasons unrelated to the math.
I didn't want to get into the level of complexity of the questions (or the reading stuff)...that's between you and the teacher. Frankly, I am not a big fan of homework, period, I think most of it is a waste of time and I rarely gave any as a teacher.
I did want you to understand why he was being expected to explain his thinking.
I do also think that teachers/administrators/schools need to do a better job of explaining the new trends in mathematics instruction. I do think there is a definitive shift from where we used to be and parents need to be informed of what the changes are AND why they are happening. We expose our teachers to the research all the time - it wouldn't hurt to share it with parent as well.
I agree with this so so much. I tried to get my principal to let me do a quick presentation on common core at Parent Teacher Conference night this Thursday...and she never responded to my request. I don't get it!
My favourite thing about teaching college? Not dealing with parents!!!
do you teach at a CEJEP in Quebec?
No! I'd murder them, they are like HS kids. I teach university, undergrad for now but I want to start teaching masters next year (and eventually phd too).
No! I'd murder them, they are like HS kids. I teach university, undergrad for now but I want to start teaching masters next year (and eventually phd too).
Sorry! It's the Canadian in me...college in Quebec = CEJEP. lol.
No! I'd murder them, they are like HS kids. I teach university, undergrad for now but I want to start teaching masters next year (and eventually phd too).
Sorry! It's the Canadian in me...college in Quebec = CEJEP. lol.
My favourite thing about teaching college? Not dealing with parents!!!
Have you had any incidents with hovering parents?
Not yet. I had a mother wonder in my office randomly because her daughter was not accepted to grad school but I happily pointed her towards the admin people and sent her on her way, lol
Post by wanderlustmom on Sept 30, 2013 21:46:57 GMT -5
I have a third grader and first grader. They go to public school. Is the curriculum challenging enough for them? No. Do I think they are gifted, no. I have incredible respect for teachers. I can't even imagine trying to differentiate education for 20-25 students. I feel this is like so many posts I read where the parent essentially is trying to shame the teachers and let us know how special their child is. Your son probably does need to read more challenging books. But like other posters wrote, that is on you. Ask the teachers to give him harder books through email and be sure to get him books on your own.
And homework for homeworks sake, I agree, not always necessary but that's assuming parents are supplementing at home. Almost all of my friends supplement at home--that is still saving us the 40K a year in private school for two kids.
I think teachers are in a bind, they need to send some homework home to reinforce effort and what's learned at school but they also know it's not necessary for the younger grades. If they don't send it, parents complain, if they do, parents complain.
Anyway, my goal is to be the kind of parent who gets that almost all teachers at almost all times have my kids best education interests in mind. The lions share, however, is on my eight year old and six year old. Honestly, I am hoping that by treating the teachers as the expert here, my son and daughter will treated more favorably. I don't want to oversimplify it--last year was an example where we didn't have a strong teacher--but we still managed to have a good year because she did care about our son and we supplemented at home.
I hope I can teach them about personal responsibility (and OP I think you have room to grow here) and not let them make excuses. Also I'd rather a child who follows the rules and has a good heart than a kid who thinks he's smarter than the teacher and the parents reinforce it. OP, I am not saying this is you--many of the parents I know IRL act like this. Better for me to get educated on common core or Singapore Math than to be negative to the teachers who do a thankless job for my child and is with them eight hours every day.
And my last pet peeve since I'm really letting it out there, I HATE when parents tell me how their kids are reading at higher reading levels as a way to brag and prove how "gifted" their child is. OMG. One of my worst annoyances. And my kids read fine, I just don't go around touting their reading levels. My parents never knew my IQ or bragged about my reading level. We are fundamentally changing parenting these days and I am so happy when I find a new friend that doesn't get all wrapped up in the competitive parenting. If I were a teacher and I had to listen to parents all day long saying how "gifted" their kids were, it would be rough. Not many kids are truly gifted but more and more kids get in these days BECAUSE of parental pressure. I hope to never be that parent.
On one hand you say he is gifted. On the other hand, he can't figure out/remember how to do these problems. Because it's too easy?
Listen, I'm coming off like a total bitch I'm sure, but none of this is making sense. It's obv NOT too easy if he can't do it. The question is not 20+11. The question is 'how do you solve 20+11', which is totally different.
If, as a parent, I were that confused, I would put a note/email to the teacher and ask for a resource/guideline so that I could adequately supervise my child's homework the next time. Ranting about the lessons and the learning or whatever isn't exactly the answer here.
Well, kind of
his worksheet had no explanations. There was a sentence (something about 22 kids and 10 more kids), a line marked equation, then four other lines underneath, labelled 1-4.
he can turn a sentence into an equation, fine. He can add up bits and subtract, and do all the stuff that rugbywife was talking about. But because this was the first math worksheet of the year, and because he didn't pay attention, and because the sheet had no real instructions, we don't know what to do with lines 1-4. I don't know if the question is 'what is 22+10' or 'how do you solve 22+10' or even 'now, please draw a puppy and three different flowers.' Because there was no actual question. Other than something about numbers of schoolchildren, and if you give me a question about numbers, I answer it. Remember I did old math.
ive sent in a note. I had it written before I posted on here, because that's how one actually solves issues like this. But it doesn't make the whole experience any less frustrating. Especially since the actual math (and reading) is below grade level.
I just read the whole thread through and I'm right with you to the end. I'm kind of infuriated, lol.
OP says her son isn't paying attention because he's bored, but he's not retaining valuable information essential to completing his homework. Rather than insist he's just too smart, it would make more sense to challenge that part of my bored son to be able to provide an explanation for his work.
MWOS made this point but it bears repeating. Allowing your son to use 'because I just know the answer' will not serve him well in school, or in life. That will eventually evolve into 'because I'm right' without feeling the need to provide an explanation. You say you live in one of the best school districts in the state, so maybe you should trust that they have their eye on the bigger picture, and are attempting to teach your son a valuable life skill.
I have never said I think my kid is gifted. I did say he has a DEP. That means that the SChOOL SYSTEM has tested and designated him as being entitled to a certain form of educational opportunity.
my kid's class is being given work below their grade level. He is bored and not learning (related, in part, to that DEP business) and did not pay attention to whatever instructions were or were not handed out with the worksheet. And the worksheet came without instructions. Hence, our difficulty in figuring out what was being asked.
It is reasonable to expect that primary-grade students should be given enough written information about homework that their parents will be able to help if they forget or don't understand or weren't paying attention.
Was my post title perhaps overstated? Yes. But I was very frustrated after 30 minutes of homework supervision with this nuisance worksheet. Fine, you can accuse me of hyperbole. But you can't tell me that it's good that the school hasn't got kids reading levels sorted out by October, or that it's ok to send home work that is not intuitive with no instructions.
there are two separate, yet related issues here. I think some of you are being deliberately obtuse and bitchy about this.