No animal testing except when required by law

[wrathofkuus]

I know there is no law that there must be animal testing done on beauty and body care products here, but when looking into Urban Decay's recent fall from grace, it would seem that the fact that they are going to sell in China automatically takes them off the cruelty-free list, because though THEY don't do animal testing, the Chinese government tests all beauty products sold there. Is this what is meant by MAC and Clinique, too, when they say "no testing except when required by law"? Or is there something else?

[rhiannon]

I don't know the answer to your question, but GRR @ Urban Decay. I'll have to find another primer.

[wrathofkuus]

Jun 26, 2012 11:44:38 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

Do you think beauty products shouldn't market in China because of their animal testing policies? Just curious.

Having just found out about this today, I'm not sure what I think about this yet (aside from the usual China sucks at life sentiment). I'm going to have to think it over, because I like to make my own decisions about what constitutes a cruelty-free company rather than letting strangers at PETA do all that decisionmaking for me, you know?

[mrssavy42112]

I guess their thought is that if the company is truly cruelty free, then they wouldn't want to sell their products in a market that does animal testing because that is, in their eyes, a way of supporting that. As long as the products that I'm being sold here are cruelty free & not tested on animals, I'm personally ok with it. I don't feel that my purchase contributes to animal testing in China, but everyone has a different view.

[looseseal]

In the blog post mentioned earlier, there's a comment about L'Occitane(sp?) that indicated that only products manufactured in China must be tested. Products can be manufactured outside of China and shipped into the country without required testing, which means the companies are choosing to manufacture there at lower cost and allowing animal testing, when they could ship into the country at a higher cost but are choosing not to. (This is all from the comments, I haven't looked into this myself.)

[papie]

I'm slowly looking into cruelty-free, so I'm obviously not an expert. But for me, it is different if they do it only for their products sold in China, versus testing everything on animals.

But, if as a result they start developing all their new products in China and therefore testing it all on animals, it isn't cruelty free anymore.

As a side note, I find ethical/green living to be very complicated and sometimes I feel like I'm driving myself crazy. I do one move at a time. I,ve recently had a few fails. My grocery store stopped carrying organic meat, so I'm working on eating less meat and finding an alternative. My cleaning lady flipped out and requested bleach and strong cleaners, she says the vinegar is crap. I'm working on eating only ethical seafood and fish, but occasionally freak out after reading one million labels and buy the first bag i see. Ugh.

[wrathofkuus]

Jun 26, 2012 12:01:31 GMT -5 Que? said:

Papie, I know how you feel. It's frustrating. I think I'm doing the right thing and then I hear that the company has been bought by a parent company that is not cruelty free, or environmentally conscientious.

And that's another thing. Is it unethical to buy from a parent company who has some products that aren't cruelty-free, even if you only buy the ones that are, or is only buying their products that are cruelty-free (and encouraging others to do the same) a way of encouraging companies to drop product lines that aren't compliant and therefore become overall compliant themselves? In other words, are we punishing them for not complying, or encouraging them to do so?

[mrssavy42112]

Jun 26, 2012 12:03:41 GMT -5 wrathofkuus said:

Jun 26, 2012 12:01:31 GMT -5 Que? said:

Papie, I know how you feel. It's frustrating. I think I'm doing the right thing and then I hear that the company has been bought by a parent company that is not cruelty free, or environmentally conscientious.

And that's another thing. Is it unethical to buy from a parent company who has some products that aren't cruelty-free, even if you only buy the ones that are, or is only buying their products that are cruelty-free (and encouraging others to do the same) a way of encouraging companies to drop product lines that aren't compliant and therefore become overall compliant themselves? In other words, are we punishing them for not complying, or encouraging them to do so?

Wasn't that the issue with MAC before they started selling in China too? I believe they're owned by Estee Lauder which does conduct animal testing. So some would say buy MAC because it's a step in the right direction & promotion a brand that doesn't test on animals, but others say that you're money eventually goes into the pocket of a company that does do animal testing. It's really just a mess.

[Deleted]

I get all confused about Sephora. It's the only place to find some of the cruelty free brands I like. But sephora itself isn't cruelty free. So isn't it just as bad to buy non-cruelty free from Sephora since it benefits their bottom line?

[papie]

Jun 26, 2012 12:07:41 GMT -5 mrssavy42112 said:

Jun 26, 2012 12:03:41 GMT -5 wrathofkuus said:

And that's another thing. Is it unethical to buy from a parent company who has some products that aren't cruelty-free, even if you only buy the ones that are, or is only buying their products that are cruelty-free (and encouraging others to do the same) a way of encouraging companies to drop product lines that aren't compliant and therefore become overall compliant themselves? In other words, are we punishing them for not complying, or encouraging them to do so?

Wasn't that the issue with MAC before they started selling in China too? I believe they're owned by Estee Lauder which does conduct animal testing. So some would say buy MAC because it's a step in the right direction & promotion a brand that doesn't test on animals, but others say that you're money eventually goes into the pocket of a company that does do animal testing. It's really just a mess.

Yeah. It is a business. If they sell lots and lots of MAC stuff and less of their other lines, it will reduce their animal testing nonetheless, right?
The way I see it, no company does it out of ethical reasons. They do it because there is a market for it. So just buying it, even if it profits to a non ethical company, is a step towards a more ethical "world". :::cue dramatic music:::

[wrathofkuus]

And don't get me started on the difference between the cruelty-free PETA list and the Leaping Bunny list.

[balletofangels]

I know that Avon has this same disclaimer. They say that if a country requires testing they lobby to change the laws. However, ultimately, I think a company's ethics only go so far as to not hurt them financially. I'm sure it is a cost/benefit and getting into a new country and profit outweighs the desire to be cruelty free.

[papie]

Jun 26, 2012 12:17:37 GMT -5 wrathofkuus said:

And don't get me started on the difference between the cruelty-free PETA list and the Leaping Bunny list.

I was actually just wondering about this. Care to summarize your thoughts? lol

[wrathofkuus]

Jun 26, 2012 12:45:40 GMT -5 papie said:

Jun 26, 2012 12:17:37 GMT -5 wrathofkuus said:

And don't get me started on the difference between the cruelty-free PETA list and the Leaping Bunny list.

I was actually just wondering about this. Care to summarize your thoughts? lol

I'm just giving the side-eye at how hard it is to get a straight answer on this, from any company or organization.

[papie]

Jun 26, 2012 12:48:26 GMT -5 wrathofkuus said:

Jun 26, 2012 12:45:40 GMT -5 papie said:

I was actually just wondering about this. Care to summarize your thoughts? lol

I'm just giving the side-eye at how hard it is to get a straight answer on this, from any company or organization.

Totally agree. I would be such a good person if it was easier! lol Give ma a clean list of things not to buy and I'll stop buying them.

[scotty]

I didn't realize Clinique hopped on this boat. Sh*t.

Anyone who tests, anywhere, is off the cruelty-free list, imo.

F*ck China.