The land of the free (as defined by the Christian right and only if your a man) and the home of the brave (but not really because anyone not white male and christian right needs to be feared as they are the devil)!
Post by curbsideprophet on Nov 11, 2013 8:48:24 GMT -5
I don't really think doula is the right word to use. A traditional doula does not provide medical advice/care, they are just there for support. I suppose if they want to be there with the person while she is getting an abortion that is fine. Actually performing an abortion, that has crossed over into something else.
Doulas aren't medical professionals -- they can't perform any medical procedures. They wouldn't be there to perform the procedure, they'd be there to support the woman going through it (similar to their role at a birth).
Doulas aren't medical professionals -- they can't perform any medical procedures. They wouldn't be there to perform the procedure, they'd be there to support the woman going through it (similar to their role at a birth).
in many cultures and pre-Roe US there were women who performed abortions without a medical license.
I don't really think doula is the right word to use. A traditional doula does not provide medical advice/care, they are just there for support. I suppose if they want to be there with the person while she is getting an abortion that is fine. Actually performing an abortion, that has crossed over into something else.
They refer to themselves as full spectrum doulas. One of them is in the doula group I used. I think basically they are "normal" doulas who feel the need to fill in the void left for these services due to the new law.
So it's like a clinic escort on steroids? That makes sense. Especially with the long distances people have to travel, waiting times, multiple trips, etc. I'd imagine they help the women arrange transport and are essentially there for the extended handholding necessary when you make what should be a relatively quick procedure extend over multiple days and include extensive travel for NO GOOD REASON.
Doulas aren't medical professionals -- they can't perform any medical procedures. They wouldn't be there to perform the procedure, they'd be there to support the woman going through it (similar to their role at a birth).
I'm honestly not sure; as we didn't get into it. However, a woman who referred to herself as an urban curandera who normally does massage and herbal therapy said she was willing to be trained to be an abortion doula. Later in the day she talked about home/self remedies for abortion and how women have used them to control their fertility for centuries.
So I think she means to give women something to cause them to abort. It's so hard to access abortions, I can't see why all these doulas would decide they should market themselves as support for one. They are filling a void in getting abortions. Someone from El Paso would need to drive 10 hours each way to get to the closest clinic in Texas!
I don't see the point of this as whether or not doulas are medical professionals or legally able to do this. I see it as what happens when you make access damn near impossible. It makes people desperate. Well meaning people can cause harm. It's fucking scary and it's happening.
All of this, especially the bolded. Full-fucking-circle and I'm not even surprised. Just horrified.
Just completely fucking horrified.
And the point about El Paso is so entirely relevant. People forget(?) just how unwieldy and fucking huge the state is. And the huge swath across the South and far West most affected? Also the most impoverished and, in many cases, the most desperate for access to services.
It's a fucking tragic day when 'travesty' just isn't a strong enough word to describe circumstances.
Also glad @littlemoxie mentioned a curandera because that's exactly what I'm imagining an influx of/return to especially in an area like The (Rio Grande) Valley with practically NO OTHER OPTIONS.
This reminds me of an article a read that was published just after Roe v. Wade. There was an underground movement of women who were taking charge of their own reproductive health. Among them were two women who helped develop the manual vacuum aspiration technique, sometimes called "menstrual extraction." It is a new procedure but these two women made it more effective and safer. It can sometimes be used in extremely early pregnancy (6 weeks or earlier).
I wonder if this is going to get more popular. It kind of died out in the U.S. because abortion procedures became legal.
I'm actually sort of amazed at how many women in this thread aren't understanding what is happening.
The doulas are training to give the abortions, whether through drugs or other medical interventions. No, it's not legal. If they cannot give the abortions themselves they are acting as escorts to parts of the state (or other states) that have the resources. I highly doubt they're being paid for their services, or if they are, it's probably not much more than gas money. Most of their money would come from their regular birth services.
When you restrict women on how/when/why they can access legal health services, this is what happens, and it happens quickly. I wouldn't be surprised if the death rate for women in TX shoots up next year. And for what? All these women are trying to do is access their completely LEGAL medical procedures. Since they can't, they have to use other venues.
I'm actually sort of amazed at how many women in this thread aren't understanding what is happening.
The doulas are training to give the abortions, whether through drugs or other medical interventions. No, it's not legal. If they cannot give the abortions themselves they are acting as escorts to parts of the state (or other states) that have the resources. I highly doubt they're being paid for their services, or if they are, it's probably not much more than gas money. Most of their money would come from their regular birth services.
When you restrict women on how/when/why they can access legal health services, this is what happens, and it happens quickly. I wouldn't be surprised if the death rate for women in TX shoots up next year. And for what? All these women are trying to do is access their completely LEGAL medical procedures. Since they can't, they have to use other venues.
That's why I was asking because this is where my mind went. I'd like to think Texas would be pretty quick to shut down medical proceduresbeing done without trained pprofessionals. If the doulas want to perform abortions they should go to medical school.
If only it were that easy. Your quote here? Is exactly the argument made in the 70s. Do you know how much of an impact it had on saving women's lives how were sticking coat hangers into their uteri? Absolutely none.
So think about your soundbites, and your blithe responses, and then think about the reality of what is happening.
ETA: And how is TX going to shut them down when no one knows where the procedures will be performed, by who, and by what means. Again, this has happened before, we have a detailed history of abortion in America, and it isn't pretty. Abortions are going to happen whether you want them to or not. End stop. There is no real way to regulate back alley abortions. It was tried, and didn't succeed. Reality vs. what prolifers want to happen, will *never* be the same.
I'm actually sort of amazed at how many women in this thread aren't understanding what is happening.
The doulas are training to give the abortions, whether through drugs or other medical interventions. No, it's not legal. If they cannot give the abortions themselves they are acting as escorts to parts of the state (or other states) that have the resources. I highly doubt they're being paid for their services, or if they are, it's probably not much more than gas money. Most of their money would come from their regular birth services.
When you restrict women on how/when/why they can access legal health services, this is what happens, and it happens quickly. I wouldn't be surprised if the death rate for women in TX shoots up next year. And for what? All these women are trying to do is access their completely LEGAL medical procedures. Since they can't, they have to use other venues.
That's why I was asking because this is where my mind went. I'd like to think Texas would be pretty quick to shut down medical proceduresbeing done without trained pprofessionals. If the doulas want to perform abortions they should go to medical school.
hmmm. And then they too could be subject to the constraints put on them by the state where they cannot help huge swaths of the population.
I hate this situation. I hate the idea of returning to back alley abortions. But I ain't gonna hate on these woman for being willing to help.
I'm actually sort of amazed at how many women in this thread aren't understanding what is happening.
The doulas are training to give the abortions, whether through drugs or other medical interventions. No, it's not legal. If they cannot give the abortions themselves they are acting as escorts to parts of the state (or other states) that have the resources. I highly doubt they're being paid for their services, or if they are, it's probably not much more than gas money. Most of their money would come from their regular birth services.
When you restrict women on how/when/why they can access legal health services, this is what happens, and it happens quickly. I wouldn't be surprised if the death rate for women in TX shoots up next year. And for what? All these women are trying to do is access their completely LEGAL medical procedures. Since they can't, they have to use other venues.
That's why I was asking because this is where my mind went. I'd like to think Texas would be pretty quick to shut down medical procedures being done without trained professionals. If the doulas want to perform abortions they should go to medical school.
No. You've got it wrong. Doulas didn't wake up yesterday and say, "I need to add another service. Ah! Abortions. I'll try that."
These doulas are trying to stop a catastrophe they see coming: a rise in unsanitary, illegal, coat-hanger-esque abortions. Especially for women who are too far in their pregnancy (a la Gosnell) and who can not get to a clinic in a reasonable, cost effective manner.
The solution is not sending doulas to medical school. The solution is rioting at the legislature. Texas is fucked up with regard to women's health. It is inhuman to force a woman to be pregnant against her will and it is immoral to force her to nearly bankrupt herself to get a safe, LEGAL procedure done in a safe environment close to her home.
I don't need sound bites, I know what my values are and I vote for them, as do the other people in this country. I know many prochoicers are upset but maybe this issue is experiencing another shift because of what the public wants now.
Um, no. What you're seeing is a splinter cell of the republican party pushing an agenda that is not supported by their constituents.
Also, women's health issues, and medical procedures in general should NEVER be put to public vote.
Post by SusanBAnthony on Nov 11, 2013 13:50:48 GMT -5
Wasn't there an article posted on here a month or so back, about a health care provider who dispensed pharmaceutical abortifacients via mail? I could see that becoming more and more of a thing.
I don't need sound bites, I know what my values are and I vote for them, as do the other people in this country. I know many prochoicers are upset but maybe this issue is experiencing another shift because of what the public wants now.
So only pro choicers are upset that women are resorting to back alley abortions? The public would prefer these women die?
What shift that the public wants are you referring to?
I don't need sound bites, I know what my values are and I vote for them, as do the other people in this country. I know many prochoicers are upset but maybe this issue is experiencing another shift because of what the public wants now.
I have all the books I could need, and what more could I need than books? I shall only engage in commerce if books are the coin. -- Catherynne M. Valente
Yeah med school doesn't teach abortions. You have to do a residency or fellowship in performing them.
I understand Texas changed their law that will affect access to care currently, but what's the negative side with ensuring MD's whom are performing have privileges at the local hospital? Its one of the only invasive surgical procedures that I know of that can be completed in a MD's office. If the MD got privileges, the access to care wouldn't change.
Its one of the only invasive surgical procedures that I know of that can be completed in a MD's office. If the MD got privileges, the access to care wouldn't change.
Also, religious hospitals and even some non-religious affiliated hospitals, are not going to allow abortions on their premises. Either due to their religion, or because of funding/other factors.
If only it were so easy as to wave a magic wand and hospitals had to allow all procedures.
If only it were that easy. Your quote here? Is exactly the argument made in the 70s. Do you know how much of an impact it had on saving women's lives how were sticking coat hangers into their uteri? Absolutely none.
So think about your soundbites, and your blithe responses, and then think about the reality of what is happening.
I don't need sound bites, I know what my values are and I vote for them, as do the other people in this country. I know many prochoicers are upset but maybe this issue is experiencing another shift because of what the public wants now.
Not that I think this is even true, but some other things that "the public wanted" include treating a particular race of people as property to be bought and sold, the ability to force people out of their homes and towards their own deaths so that other people could have their land instead, and for white children and black children to be forced to attend separate schools.
Its one of the only invasive surgical procedures that I know of that can be completed in a MD's office. If the MD got privileges, the access to care wouldn't change.
In any of them, if a patient experiences complications, they're transported to a hospital.
Thank you. I was about to say that I can think of half a dozen invasive surgical procedures that can be performed in a doctor's office right off the top of my head, and I'm not even remotely a medical professional.
Its one of the only invasive surgical procedures that I know of that can be completed in a MD's office. If the MD got privileges, the access to care wouldn't change.
Ever had your wisdom teeth out? A knee drained?
An array of cosmetic surgeries are done in-office. Colposcopy and colonoscopy.
I could keep going.
Boob jobs Rotorooter nose jobs Deviated septum correction Liposuction Vasectomies
And more.
The fact is only 5-7 of the 47 clinics can remain open as a result of this "patient safety" issue which is really only about restricting access.
Doulas aren't medical professionals -- they can't perform any medical procedures. They wouldn't be there to perform the procedure, they'd be there to support the woman going through it (similar to their role at a birth).
I'm honestly not sure; as we didn't get into it. However, a woman who referred to herself as an urban curandera who normally does massage and herbal therapy said she was willing to be trained to be an abortion doula. Later in the day she talked about home/self remedies for abortion and how women have used them to control their fertility for centuries.
So I think she means to give women something to cause them to abort. It's so hard to access abortions, I can't see why all these doulas would decide they should market themselves as support for one. They are filling a void in getting abortions. Someone from El Paso would need to drive 10 hours each way to get to the closest clinic in Texas!
I don't see the point of this as whether or not doulas are medical professionals or legally able to do this. I see it as what happens when you make access damn near impossible. It makes people desperate. Well meaning people can cause harm. It's fucking scary and it's happening.
Would you restrict your access to Texas because of insurance purposes? Just trying to figure out why someone wouldn't just go to Las Cruces which is 45 minutes west/NW?
Note - I'm not saying I support ANY of what is happening to women's rights in Texas right now... I'm just curious about the geography of it.