Philly faith healing parents sentenced

[redheadbaker]

Sorry, it's a mobile link.

m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4813638
Herbert Schaible, Catherine Schaible Sentencing: Faith Healers Face Prison Time For Son's Death

PHILADELPHIA (AP) — A Pennsylvania couple who believe in faith-healing face 20 years or more in prison in the death of a second child who died without seeing a doctor.

Herbert and Catherine Schaible are being sentenced Wednesday in the death last year of their 8-month-old son, Brandon. At the time, they were under court orders to seek medical care for their children after their 2-year-old son, Kent, died of untreated pneumonia in 2009.The Schaibles are third-generation members of a small Pentecostal community, the First Century Gospel Church in northeast Philadelphia.

A lawyer for Catherine Schaible, 44, plans to explore their religious beliefs at the sentencing. Her 45-year-old husband's lawyer argues that no malice was involved.

The Schaibles have pleaded no contest to third-degree murder in Brandon's death. They have seven surviving children.

"We believe in divine healing, that Jesus shed blood for our healing and that he died on the cross to break the devil's power," Herbert Schaible said in a 2013 police statement. Medicine, he said, "is against our religious beliefs."

A jury had convicted both parents of involuntary manslaughter in Kent's death, and they were put on 10 years of probation that included orders to seek medical care if any other child got sick.

After Brandon's death, an irate judge found they had violated parole.

Prosecutors have described the boys' symptoms as "eerily similar," and said they included labored breathing and a refusal to eat. Catherine Schaible's lawyer, though, said her client tried to feed Brandon during his illness and applied baby powder to keep him comfortable.

Their pastor, Nelson Clark, has said the Schaibles lost their sons because of a "spiritual lack" in their lives and insisted they would not seek medical care even if another child appeared near death.

[Deleted]

That poor baby.

And, this, right here, is disgusting:

Their pastor, Nelson Clark, has said the Schaibles lost their sons because of a "spiritual lack" in their lives and insisted they would not seek medical care even if another child appeared near death.

[racegrrl714]

I fail to see how "applying baby powder" makes one feel more comfortable while they are drowning in their own mucus.

[Cicero]

Feb 19, 2014 12:57:06 GMT -5 redheadbaker said:

Their pastor, Nelson Clark, has said the Schaibles lost their sons because of a "spiritual lack" in their lives and insisted they would not seek medical care even if another child appeared near death.

What a douchecanoe.

[Deleted]

I wonder where the rest of their children are now. I'm assuming the parents are in custody, and even if they aren't, they are (hopefully, presumably) going away soon for a very long time.

[anonymous]

i'm sure the baby powder really helped with the respiratory distress. Poor babies

[UMaineTeach]

Feb 19, 2014 13:12:07 GMT -5 @shenanigans said:

That poor baby.

And, this, right here, is disgusting:

Their pastor, Nelson Clark, has said the Schaibles lost their sons because of a "spiritual lack" in their lives and insisted they would not seek medical care even if another child appeared near death.

I can't imagine having such an un-supportive religious leader to look up to. Clearly, if they had prayed harder and been better Christians their child would still be alive...

[ECB]

"We believe in divine healing, that Jesus shed blood for our healing and that he died on the cross to break the devil's power," Herbert Schaible said in a 2013 police statement. Medicine, he said, "is against our religious beliefs."

This is when religion really disturbs me.  When you're THIS deep in it, there seem to be no critical thinking skills.

For the fact this has happened before, it should be an f-ing clue that Jesus isn't going to always come to your rescue. 

[zelda25]

Feb 19, 2014 13:18:42 GMT -5 ECB said:

"We believe in divine healing, that Jesus shed blood for our healing and that he died on the cross to break the devil's power," Herbert Schaible said in a 2013 police statement. Medicine, he said, "is against our religious beliefs."

This is when religion really disturbs me.  When you're THIS deep in it, there seem to be no critical thinking skills.

For the fact this has happened before, it should be an f-ing clue that Jesus isn't going to always come to your rescue. 

Their pastor has convinced them that this is the result of some failing on their part, so I would guess that they think they're extra-super fucked since their "failing" has resulted in the death of yet another child.

And ditto the lack of critical thinking skills. The cherry-picking of "evidence" and mental gymnastics required to believe this shit is beyond my grasp.

[ringstrue]

Glad the rest of those kids will grow up away from this crazy.

[wawa]

these are some muddled thoughts - these people - they believe this. In the midst of the modern world, surrounded by modern technology and a fairly functional society and everything else - they believe this FUCKING BULLSHIT. Within about 10 miles of one of the premier children's hospitals in the country, they believe it so hard they've let not one, but TWO of their own children die.

I find this terrifying.

I'm not going to articulate this well - in a situation where there was no clear leadership or order or something - I'm picturing a post-apocalyptic kind of thing - I can understand how people would latch onto a leader like this pastor out of sheer terror and overwhelming need for order and end up with this sort of situation. But here? Now? Where they could have LITERALLY just walked outside holding their child and screamed for help and chances are an ambulance would have shown up and taken him away and he'd have been fine? And they did it TWICE. I don't even understand how we're the same species, let alone citizens of the same country, raised in the same society.

I understand koolaid drinking mass suicides better than I can understand this. To operate within this society to the extent that they do - they have jobs, they rent houses, etc - and still believe this? I just can't wrap my brain around it at all without feeling like there is something awful lurking in the average human to revel in this sort of destruction in the name of faith.

Literally destroying my faith in humanity.
This article looks interesting htough for those curious about the back story - I'm only on page 2.
www.phillymag.com/articles/schaibles-let-children-die/

[Cicero]

Refresh my memory: can you be an accessory to manslaughter? If so I hope someone charges that "pastor".

[ECB]

Feb 19, 2014 13:48:40 GMT -5 wawa said:

But here? Now? Where they could have LITERALLY just walked outside holding their child and screamed for help and chances are an ambulance would have shown up and taken him away and he'd have been fine? And they did it TWICE. I don't even understand how we're the same species, let alone citizens of the same country, raised in the same society.

I understand koolaid drinking mass suicides better than I can understand this.

I so agree with you. 

My son has celiac.  He was diagnosed at 17 months.  The 4 - 6 weeks leading up to the diagnosis were horrible.  He was losing so much weight, throwing up, diarrhea, had NO energy.... it was HORRID.  I never ever want to experience something like that again.

The fact that these parents have now done this twice... I just can NOT fathom it.  Looking at your child when they are SO clearly sick and then letting them stay sick and get sicker.  I don't get it. 

[ringstrue]

Feb 19, 2014 13:51:59 GMT -5 Cicero said:

Refresh my memory: can you be an accessory to manslaughter? If so I hope someone charges that "pastor".

I can't believe their isn't something they can do to stop him. 

[cattledogkisses]

Idiots. God sent you healing in the form of doctors and modern medicine, but you ignored it.

[wawa]

This church is some fucking crazy cakes.

things they also do not believe in: birth control of any sort, seat belts, glasses, retirement savings, owning a home, college.

But they have jobs (construction mostly from what was mentioned), use email, etc.

[IIOY]

Feb 19, 2014 13:48:40 GMT -5 wawa said:

these are some muddled thoughts - these people - they believe this. In the midst of the modern world, surrounded by modern technology and a fairly functional society and everything else - they believe this FUCKING BULLSHIT. Within about 10 miles of one of the premier children's hospitals in the country, they believe it so hard they've let not one, but TWO of their own children die.

I find this terrifying.

I'm not going to articulate this well - in a situation where there was no clear leadership or order or something - I'm picturing a post-apocalyptic kind of thing - I can understand how people would latch onto a leader like this pastor out of sheer terror and overwhelming need for order and end up with this sort of situation. But here? Now? Where they could have LITERALLY just walked outside holding their child and screamed for help and chances are an ambulance would have shown up and taken him away and he'd have been fine? And they did it TWICE. I don't even understand how we're the same species, let alone citizens of the same country, raised in the same society.

I understand koolaid drinking mass suicides better than I can understand this. To operate within this society to the extent that they do - they have jobs, they rent houses, etc - and still believe this? I just can't wrap my brain around it at all without feeling like there is something awful lurking in the average human to revel in this sort of destruction in the name of faith.

Literally destroying my faith in humanity.
This article looks interesting htough for those curious about the back story - I'm only on page 2.
www.phillymag.com/articles/schaibles-let-children-die/

This is a cult, yes?  There are a lot of sad, desperate people out there.  As shocked as I am but what these people, it doesn't actually surprise me that people like this exist.

[debatethis]

Feb 19, 2014 15:13:32 GMT -5 wawa said:

This church is some fucking crazy cakes.

things they also do not believe in: birth control of any sort, seat belts, glasses, retirement savings, owning a home, college.

But they have jobs (construction mostly from what was mentioned), use email, etc.

How, exactly, does one perform a job like construction when one can't SEE? That seems like a recipe for lots of trips to the ER...oh, wait.

[sushi]

Only 20 years for murdering a child? That's fucked up.

[wawa]

Feb 19, 2014 15:16:37 GMT -5 IIOY said:

Feb 19, 2014 13:48:40 GMT -5 wawa said:

these are some muddled thoughts - these people - they believe this. In the midst of the modern world, surrounded by modern technology and a fairly functional society and everything else - they believe this FUCKING BULLSHIT. Within about 10 miles of one of the premier children's hospitals in the country, they believe it so hard they've let not one, but TWO of their own children die.

I find this terrifying.

I'm not going to articulate this well - in a situation where there was no clear leadership or order or something - I'm picturing a post-apocalyptic kind of thing - I can understand how people would latch onto a leader like this pastor out of sheer terror and overwhelming need for order and end up with this sort of situation. But here? Now? Where they could have LITERALLY just walked outside holding their child and screamed for help and chances are an ambulance would have shown up and taken him away and he'd have been fine? And they did it TWICE. I don't even understand how we're the same species, let alone citizens of the same country, raised in the same society.

I understand koolaid drinking mass suicides better than I can understand this. To operate within this society to the extent that they do - they have jobs, they rent houses, etc - and still believe this? I just can't wrap my brain around it at all without feeling like there is something awful lurking in the average human to revel in this sort of destruction in the name of faith.

Literally destroying my faith in humanity.
This article looks interesting htough for those curious about the back story - I'm only on page 2.
www.phillymag.com/articles/schaibles-let-children-die/

This is a cult, yes?  There are a lot of sad, desperate people out there.  As shocked as I am but what these people, it doesn't actually surprise me that people like this exist.

It's not so much that they exist - as how they exist.  Like, the Amish don't bother me like this.   Things happen when you step away from the rest of the world.  These folks - they aren't out on farms all by themselves.  They aren't in a compound somewhere.  They only socialize with their churchy selves in their downtown, but they hold down jobs, they are right there in the middle of an otherwise normal neighborhood.   In theory they've seen the real world.  But this still rings true for them.  I dunno - I just don't get it.    It's definitely a cult, yes.  I just...I dunno.  It bothers me that all it takes for our weird little monkey hindbrains to do something like watch TWO children die slowly and painfully is to fall in with a charismatic leader.

[NewOrleans]

Feb 19, 2014 12:57:06 GMT -5 redheadbaker said:

"We believe in divine healing, that Jesus shed blood for our healing and that he died on the cross to break the devil's power," Herbert Schaible said.

Their pastor, Nelson Clark, has said the Schaibles lost their sons because of a "spiritual lack" in their lives and insisted they would not seek medical care even if another child appeared near death.

There is nothing the devil loves more than a closed mind and a childkiller.

[trigal]

Feb 19, 2014 12:57:06 GMT -5 redheadbaker said:

"We believe in divine healing, that Jesus shed blood for our healing and that he died on the cross to break the devil's power," Herbert Schaible said in a 2013 police statement. Medicine, he said, "is against our religious beliefs."

Don't blame Jesus for this one. I'm pretty confident He wanted parents to care for their children, not allow them to die unnecessarily.

[katfco]

Feb 19, 2014 15:28:49 GMT -5 trigal said:

Feb 19, 2014 12:57:06 GMT -5 redheadbaker said:

"We believe in divine healing, that Jesus shed blood for our healing and that he died on the cross to break the devil's power," Herbert Schaible said in a 2013 police statement. Medicine, he said, "is against our religious beliefs."

Don't blame Jesus for this one. I'm pretty confident He wanted parents to care for their children, not allow them to die unnecessarily.

Yes. I've read my Bible cover to cover several times--there's nothing in there about willingly letting a child die. Especially when you consider the author of two New Testament books was a physician. Pretty sure Jesus was okay with them then.

[msmerymac]

Feb 19, 2014 13:48:40 GMT -5 wawa said:

these are some muddled thoughts - these people - they believe this. In the midst of the modern world, surrounded by modern technology and a fairly functional society and everything else - they believe this FUCKING BULLSHIT. Within about 10 miles of one of the premier children's hospitals in the country, they believe it so hard they've let not one, but TWO of their own children die.

I find this terrifying.

I'm not going to articulate this well - in a situation where there was no clear leadership or order or something - I'm picturing a post-apocalyptic kind of thing - I can understand how people would latch onto a leader like this pastor out of sheer terror and overwhelming need for order and end up with this sort of situation. But here? Now? Where they could have LITERALLY just walked outside holding their child and screamed for help and chances are an ambulance would have shown up and taken him away and he'd have been fine? And they did it TWICE. I don't even understand how we're the same species, let alone citizens of the same country, raised in the same society.

I understand koolaid drinking mass suicides better than I can understand this. To operate within this society to the extent that they do - they have jobs, they rent houses, etc - and still believe this? I just can't wrap my brain around it at all without feeling like there is something awful lurking in the average human to revel in this sort of destruction in the name of faith.

Literally destroying my faith in humanity.
This article looks interesting htough for those curious about the back story - I'm only on page 2.
www.phillymag.com/articles/schaibles-let-children-die/

I agree with you and I am NOT defending them in the slightest, but just trying to work this out in my head.

A lot of people have lines they don't want to cross. For some Catholics, IVF is something they won't participate in, although is IS a medical option in general, because of their beliefs. But more in general, some people won't, say, support an organ transplant or open heart surgery for a 90 year old smoker. Some people choose not to put themselves through chemo if their cancer returns. Some parents even choose, at some point and some time, to stop treating their child's terminal illness and just make them comfortable. I know I wouldn't go to extreme measures to keep my parents alive if I was in that position, and I wouldn't want anyone to do the same for me. 

So their line is... way, way, way off the mark of a normal person's line and involves any kind of medical intervention at all. But I GUESS their line of thinking isn't, "well, let's try all we can, so let's call an ambulance," it's, "we've tried everything we're comfortable with and now we wait and see if it's enough. Pray harder." 

Don't get me wrong. I think they are OBVIOUSLY wrong. But I can see a gray area. Treating a child for pneumonia and performing open heart surgery on your 93 year old grandfather are completely opposite ends of the spectrum. It depends on the possible outcome (child with pneumonia getting emergency treatment - likely a very, very good outcome). It depends on the age and condition of the patient. It depends on a dozen other factors. I vaguely remember parents deciding not to treat their child's cancer (leukemia?) with chemo and possibly facing charges, but because her prognosis was really, really good. Like a 96% 5 year prognosis with treatment. But an extremely rare brain cancer with only a 3% 5 year prognosis? I don't think I'd blame them for not doing it. That's probably how these parents see themselves due to the brainwashing.

It's a line. And the line they are comfortable with falls under criminal neglect, frankly. But anyway, I assume that's their train of thought.

[phunluvin82]

whtc.com/news/articles/2014/feb/19/philadelphia-faith-healer-couple-sentenced-to-prison-in-sons-death/

Looks like they only got 3-7 years.

[NewOrleans]

From their website: The FCG Church believes and teaches that we are to trust God alone for protection from accidents, injury, theft, or loss and to not use safety seat-belts,   hand guns, or any other device that is designed to protect a person from accidents or loss, as such devices are false places of trust that substitute for real faith in the living God.

The FCG Church teaches its members not to purchase; not to take responsibility for, nor sign any type of insurance policy for financial protection. ^o)

[MixedBerryJam]

Feb 19, 2014 15:13:32 GMT -5 wawa said:

This church is some fucking crazy cakes.

things they also do not believe in: birth control of any sort, seat belts, glasses, retirement savings, owning a home, college.

But they have jobs (construction mostly from what was mentioned), use email, etc.

I haven't read the article, but, construction jobs, you say? Do they wear hardhats on the job? If they don't, I can't imagine being allowed on site; if they do, aren't they saying God isn't always going to save them?

[ECB]

Feb 19, 2014 18:10:27 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

From their website: The FCG Church believes and teaches that we are to trust God alone for protection from accidents, injury, theft, or loss and to not use safety seat-belts,   hand guns, or any other device that is designed to protect a person from accidents or loss, as such devices are false places of trust that substitute for real faith in the living God.

The FCG Church teaches its members not to purchase; not to take responsibility for, nor sign any type of insurance policy for financial protection.

WHO is it that comes up w/ this shit?  What happens when any of their members suffer a catastrophic loss of some sort?  Do they all rally together and support that person? 

There is so much more I want to say.  But I'm sure we're all thinking the same thing, and there are no answers to the questions I have. 

[meshaliuknits]

Feb 19, 2014 18:10:27 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

From their website: The FCG Church believes and teaches that we are to trust God alone for protection from accidents, injury, theft, or loss and to not use safety seat-belts,   hand guns, or any other device that is designed to protect a person from accidents or loss, as such devices are false places of trust that substitute for real faith in the living God.

The FCG Church teaches its members not to purchase; not to take responsibility for, nor sign any type of insurance policy for financial protection.

Do these people get a lot of tickets?

[NewOrleans]

I say let these fools drive without seatbelts and work construction without hardhats. We need to get these folks out of the genepool and the general citizenry.