Our treatment of the N. Americans vs the Holocaust

[KateAggie]

From my FB feed...

"Watching "american: story of us" - the shifting of the natives/buffalo is worse than the holocaust genocide (and they got away with it). Sad sad sad."

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Now, I think our history with regard to the Native Americans is pretty damn horrifying, but I don't agree with this statement. Mostly, I think, because my expectations of humanity increase with the passage of time.

Thoughts??

[msmerymac]

I agree that my expectations for humanity increase with the passage of time.

But, not knowing the entire context, I won't agree or disagree. Are they also referring to the length of time the "Indian Wars" went on?

Between NA "resettlement" and the Holocaust was less than a century. I really don't think the world's knowledge of or interest in humanitarian issues was really a concern until the late 20th century - think Jimmy Carter.

If we were talking 500 years of difference, I'd totally see the point, but Little Big Horn, for example, was in 1876, and within 60 years, Hitler had already established some camps. So, within a lifetime.

[ttt]

Jul 8, 2012 23:45:06 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

My first thought: "Genocide isn't a contest."

On second reflection, I'm pretty annoyed at lumping buffalo into genocide. If she feels that is analogous, I hope she is boycotting her grocery store (and it's bison burgers).

I think the comparison is not that the slaughter if buffalo is like the murder of people but rather that they wiped out a species for sport that these people depended on for their lives and culture. It's like going into a place where rice is the staple food and stealing 99% of the rice to use as jewelry.

[ttt]

"In 1874, Secretary of the Interior Delano testified before Congress, "The buffalo are disappearing rapidly, but not faster than I desire. I regard the destruction of such game as Indians subsist upon as facilitating the policy of the Government, of destroying their hunting habits, coercing them on reservations, and compelling them to begin to adopt the habits of civilization."

[ttt]

This is an article about the buffalo - pretty appalling.

m.indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2011/05/09/genocide-by-other-means-u-s-army-slaughtered-buffalo-in-plains-indian-wars-30798

I don't think the comparison to the Holocaust is too far off. It was a systematic elimination of an ethnic group by war, murder, starvation and forcible confinement. And it worked.

[Deleted]

I think it was more of a careless, self absorbed sense of self importance that distinguishes the treatment of the Native Americans from Hitler's plan to destroy the Jews.

I'm not trying to excuse it or play the suffering Olympics here but the fact of the matter is that white Americans in general wanted the Native Americans to go elsewhere while the Nazis' ultimate goal was to kill them all.

I think it's the difference between negligent homicide and premeditated murder. Both leave you with dead bodies and Jack McCoy adding you to his shitlist.

[pescalita]

Jul 9, 2012 1:14:27 GMT -5 @habbsies said:

I think it was more of a careless, self absorbed sense of self importance that distinguishes the treatment of the Native Americans from Hitler's plan to destroy the Jews.

I'm not trying to excuse it or play the suffering Olympics here but the fact of the matter is that white Americans in general wanted the Native Americans to go elsewhere while the Nazis' ultimate goal was to kill them all.

I think it's the difference between negligent homicide and premeditated murder. Both leave you with dead bodies and Jack McCoy adding you to his shitlist.

This.

NA populations were largely destroyed by European disease way ahead of actually meeting Europeans. While what happened when they did meet is appalling, the vast majority of that 90+% of the population that was killed off was completely unintentional.

It also meant the populations that Europeans did finally meet were shadows of their former selves. It was a lot easier to paint them as barbaric savages when they were scrambling to survive.

[AJL]

Jul 8, 2012 23:45:06 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

My first thought: "Genocide isn't a contest."

This where I am.

[LoveTrains]

Jul 9, 2012 8:47:23 GMT -5 pescalita said:

NA populations were largely destroyed by European disease way ahead of actually meeting Europeans. While what happened when they did meet is appalling, the vast majority of that 90+% of the population that was killed off was completely unintentional.

It also meant the populations that Europeans did finally meet were shadows of their former selves. It was a lot easier to paint them as barbaric savages when they were scrambling to survive.

It really depends on which group you are talking about, though. If you look at the bigger picture, 90% of the aztecs were not killed by disease before the Spaniards reached the capital.

And let's not forget how some native american populations were purposefully given disease ridden blankets by europeans to exacerbate the issue.

However, a great example of the population being decimated before english settlers coming iis the area around Plymouth, MA. When the pilgrims came to Mass, they settled in Plymouth because there were a variety of good things about the location. It also happened that the native american village there (Plymouth) had been completely decimated by disease in the last five years and it is true that somewhere in the range of 75-90% of that particular village was killed.

IMO, what happened to those that survived the disease and their descendants was genocide, and it was because the europeans felt that they were a superior race and that they had a god-given right to rule this continent. That being said, it was a different time with different cultural norms and people believed different things than they did now. Seeing as how africans could be brought to this country as chattel, it is no surprise that native americans were not considered equal to white european settlers.

[foundmylazybum]

The amount of victims was not the same amount as the holocaust. But it was absolutely a genocide. Genocide is defined as "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group"
The us gOvernment absolutely had a plan to systematically eridicate native American populations through multiple means. It wasn't some random, helter skelter Idea based on Carelessness or selfish ideals.

[NitaX]

Jul 9, 2012 9:31:05 GMT -5 foundmylazybum said:

The amount of victims was not the same amount as the holocaust. But it was absolutely a genocide. Genocide is defined as "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group"
The us gOvernment absolutely had a plan to systematically eridicate native American populations through multiple means. It wasn't some random, helter skelter Idea based on Carelessness or selfish ideals.

Agreed. The Cherokee Nation actually won a SCOTUS case to stay in their native land. President Jackson deliberately ignored the ruling and sent them out West.

Sure, no one wants to think they can be likened to Hitler, but US History is littered with the evidence that ethnic groups were rounded up and shipped off to desolate places. And we're still dealing with the vestiges of ethnic strife when you look at the treatment of Muslims in this country.

[Deleted]

The L&O university definition of negligent homicide is knowing people will die and not giving a fuck. It's murder all the same. So please don't try to make it sound like I'm downplaying what happened.

[KateAggie]

Jul 9, 2012 9:27:33 GMT -5 LoveTrains said:

That being said, it was a different time with different cultural norms and people believed different things than they did now. Seeing as how africans could be brought to this country as chattel, it is no surprise that native americans were not considered equal to white european settlers.

Jul 9, 2012 9:31:05 GMT -5 foundmylazybum said:

The amount of victims was not the same amount as the holocaust. But it was absolutely a genocide. Genocide is defined as "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group"

I agree with both of these statements. I do think what our country/govt/people did is horrifying and evil. But I do think that time does matter, whether we're looking at 60, 100, 250 years past. With the way our society evolves, 60 years can mean a world of difference. Heck, it was only 45 years ago that interracial marriage was illegal.

[dylanite]

I'm thinking the NA's would prefer to rule the entertainment industry over American casinos (not that they rule that either).

Point - Jews

[foundmylazybum]

We know hitler took ideas for the final solution from our treatment of native Americans.

The more I've had opportunities to learn about our treatment of the different tribes and groups, the more ive realized it absolutely was deliberate, planned and had intent.

I respectfully disagree Habs. It's not negligent homicide, it is genocide. To say less does in fact downplay the experience.

[ttt]

Jul 9, 2012 8:47:23 GMT -5 pescalita said:

NA populations were largely destroyed by European disease way ahead of actually meeting Europeans. While what happened when they did meet is appalling, the vast majority of that 90+% of the population that was killed off was completely unintentional.

I don't really see how this matters, though. Just because many people were killed by disease in 1600 doesn't mean that it wasn't that big a deal that they were systematically eliminated in the 1800s.

I don't see the point of saying "this was worse!" about either one, but I do think it's worth noting that it's pretty universally recognized that the Holocaust was a horrible thing - in Germany it's literally a crime to say it didn't happen and the entire nation engaged in soul-searching and self-flagellation in the decades that followed. We have "never again" slogans, museums, research centers, grants, scholarships, never-ending prosecutions of people who were involved, etc. An entire country was founded on the basis of "this terrible thing happened to these people, we have to give them a country and tons of money to make sure nothing bad ever happens to them again."

There's very little of that for Native Americans. They got casinos and sky-high poverty and alcoholism rates and a collective shrug from the rest of the country. "Yeah that was pretty bad but it was a long time ago, so whatever. I'm sure they're over it now."

[NitaX]

TTT - How dare you suggest this great nation do soul-searching like those Socialist European nations! We gave Native Americans bootstraps when we gave them casinos.

[foundmylazybum]

You ever been to the reservations Nitaw? Garden areas! I don't understand why they can't just get over it.

[KateAggie]

FWIW, I hate that our history classes basically gloss over what we did to the native populations here. I've already told DH that when it gets covered in school for our daughters, there will be some home study as well.

[foundmylazybum]

Jul 9, 2012 10:10:36 GMT -5 KateAggie said:

FWIW, I hate that our history classes basically gloss over what we did to the native populations here. I've already told DH that when it gets covered in school for our daughters, there will be some home study as well.

Are you still in Vegas?

I recommend las Vegas valley springs preserve. It has a lot of cultural history, mixed with awesome environmental education.. All based on desert ecology.

[Deleted]

to my mind, the distinction lies in the motive, not the result, and that's why people talk and feel differently about it. the displacement/buffalo killing/forced adoption/indian schools/etc. were all out of a misguided, hubristic, theologically-oriented notion that the native americans needed "saving" and "civilizing." the holocaust was motived by the desire to kill off a racial/ethnic/religious group. the former can look at lot like the proselytizing that some christians are encouraged to engage in by their churches today, the later looks a lot more like the crusades which is long enough ago and cathlolic enough that people don't have to feel all uncomfy about the similarities.*

and i think we have a tragedy/genocide distinction, which is a primary reason why, to the extent the goverment "got away with it", they did (not to mention that it wasn't the same goverment doing a lot of that back then, than it is now--we don't have territories, etc.; that's not an excuse, just a further mental barrier).

i think we can acknowledge and reflect upon the horrors of both without having a wounded peoples/bad goverment contest. and to the extent that a native american v. holocaust discussion is happening, we can hope that it motivates the goverment and the people to do more for the native americans.


*note, i do not actually think that the systemic eradication of a culture in the guise of charitable christianity is the same thing as modern-day bible handouts. i'm saying it's closer.

[KateAggie]

Jul 9, 2012 10:13:58 GMT -5 foundmylazybum said:

Jul 9, 2012 10:10:36 GMT -5 KateAggie said:

FWIW, I hate that our history classes basically gloss over what we did to the native populations here. I've already told DH that when it gets covered in school for our daughters, there will be some home study as well.

Are you still in Vegas?

I recommend las Vegas valley springs preserve. It has a lot of cultural history, mixed with awesome environmental education.. All based on desert ecology.

Yes, we're members. Marisa loves it...especially the "movie" that teaches the history of Vegas and our water supply. They just opened a state history museum there, too, but we haven't been yet.

[NitaX]

Jul 9, 2012 10:09:59 GMT -5 foundmylazybum said:

You ever been to the reservations Nitaw? Garden areas! I don't understand why they can't just get over it.

No, I have never been.

KA - To be honest, I had the same reaction your FB friend had when I watched that program during Thanksgiving. I was really quite pissed off at it, because everything is so dayum glossed over. Oh we treated people badly - Sorry! But, institutional racism is a figment of your imagination, here ya go! Bootstraps! Get up, dust yourself off and chase that great American Dream!!

[Deleted]

Jul 9, 2012 9:59:19 GMT -5 foundmylazybum said:

We know hitler took ideas for the final solution from our treatment of native Americans.

The more I've had opportunities to learn about our treatment of the different tribes and groups, the more ive realized it absolutely was deliberate, planned and had intent.

I respectfully disagree Habs. It's not negligent homicide, it is genocide. To say less does in fact downplay the experience.

Hmm, I'm wondering where I said it wasn't genocide.

I'll give you a hint. I didn't. It's definitely genocide.

ETA: My point was that as negligent homicide and premeditated murder are both murder then so a systematic goal to eradicated an entire race and not giving a flying flip what your attempts to displace a race and their livelihood does to an entire race are both genocide.

[heightsyankee]

Jul 9, 2012 10:00:39 GMT -5 ttt said:

Jul 9, 2012 8:47:23 GMT -5 pescalita said:

NA populations were largely destroyed by European disease way ahead of actually meeting Europeans. While what happened when they did meet is appalling, the vast majority of that 90+% of the population that was killed off was completely unintentional.

I don't really see how this matters, though. Just because many people were killed by disease in 1600 doesn't mean that it wasn't that big a deal that they were systematically eliminated in the 1800s.

I don't see the point of saying "this was worse!" about either one, but I do think it's worth noting that it's pretty universally recognized that the Holocaust was a horrible thing - in Germany it's literally a crime to say it didn't happen and the entire nation engaged in soul-searching and self-flagellation in the decades that followed. We have "never again" slogans, museums, research centers, grants, scholarships, never-ending prosecutions of people who were involved, etc. An entire country was founded on the basis of "this terrible thing happened to these people, we have to give them a country and tons of money to make sure nothing bad ever happens to them again."

There's very little of that for Native Americans. They got casinos and sky-high poverty and alcoholism rates and a collective shrug from the rest of the country. "Yeah that was pretty bad but it was a long time ago, so whatever. I'm sure they're over it now."

And they only get casinos in a few places. When the TX Alabama Coushatta tried to have a casino the state shut it down even though it was on tribal lands and tribes are supposed to have sovereignty. Tribes' sovereignty, which is the best thing they have going for them and it's not as much as some people might think, is constantly challenged.

I have literally had dozens of people try to give me the "but they're ok now. They have casinos" argument (and I know that's not what you're saying, but others use it as an excuse to not have to care). Well, for one thing, there are an awful lot of white people involved who get an awful lot of the profit from most of those casinos. And B) they're not all Foxwoods style big money makers. My husband worked for the Ho-chunk tribe in WI. They have casinos and still most members of the rez live barely above the poverty line, many still under.

In NewMexico, we sponsor a family who live in a shack with no electricity or running water. They are not an anomaly. Don't make me tell you about the angry letter I shot off to Matt Damon. ^o)

[pixy0stix]

Jul 9, 2012 9:27:33 GMT -5 LoveTrains said:

And let's not forget how some native american populations were purposefully given disease ridden blankets by europeans to exacerbate the issue.

Actually, this is an urban legend.

As for the horrific treatment of the NAs being decades past... It was only in the 1970s (I think) that we stopped bussing the kids off reservation to be taught in "white" schools and systematically stripped of their culture.

There's a lot of, "Oh this happened way in the past" going on in this thread, but there are still a ton of ongoing injustices going on on the reservations.

[heightsyankee]

Jul 9, 2012 11:46:17 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Jul 9, 2012 9:27:33 GMT -5 LoveTrains said:

And let's not forget how some native american populations were purposefully given disease ridden blankets by europeans to exacerbate the issue.

Actually, this is an urban legend.

As for the horrific treatment of the NAs being decades past... It was only in the 1970s (I think) that we stopped bussing the kids off reservation to be taught in "white" schools and systematically stripped of their culture.

There's a lot of, "Oh this happened way in the past" going on in this thread, but there are still a ton of ongoing injustices going on on the reservations.

YES. "Boarding schools" where their hair cut and were taught how to be servants. The schools still exist but, for better or worse, are sought after by the families in the most dire situations as a way to provide food and shelter for their kids. Granted, the curriculum isn't the same but can you imagine sending your kids to a school which, in your own life time, tried to erase your culture from their lives, because you're so poor?

[foundmylazybum]

"I'm not trying to excuse it or play the suffering Olympics here but the fact of the matter is that white Americans in general wanted the Native Americans to go elsewhere while the Nazis' ultimate goal was to kill them all."

My apologies, this statement " going elsewhere" vs " kill them all" suggests you did not think it was a genocide. I also would just use the term genocide ( me personally). I feel it's an odd semantic turn to use " negligent homicide. :: shrugs:: we have a different lense.

[pixy0stix]

I just looked up the boarding schools to see when they ended. A government website says they stopped in 1920s. ^o) Yeah, no.

NPR article from 2008 - www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=16516865

[Deleted]

Oh I wish I could remember names and places but about two years ago, I took a trip through wiki regarding the current state of Native Americans as well as the recent history and current conditions of the reservations and the abuses aren't over, not by a long shot.

What makes it more appalling is the general consensus that if they would just leave the reservation and act like proper Americans, they'd be fine but since they insist upon being their own nation, fuck them and the horses we shot out from under them.

Weren't we recently discussing the issue of rape on reservations and how little is done about that issue or do people just assume it's a product of savages being savage?