60 Minutes story on red-shirting

[msmerymac]

Jul 9, 2012 8:51:36 GMT -5 hopecounts said:

My step-niece has a June Bday and her Bio Mom opted not to red shirt her, she ended up doing badly in K b/c she wasn't ready and had to repeat it.
She now hates school because she's embarrassed to see her friends from her first K year (she's in 3rd and literally has told her Dad this)
I'd 100% err on the side of red shirting to this. Better to start late, then repeat and have the label of "failing".

With a JUNE birthday? When on earth is your cut off? This is what we are talking about. There's no reason to red shirt a kid with a spring or summer birthday.

In NY, the cut off date was (is?) December 1. I have a May birthday. No way would my parents have considered not sending me to kindergarten when I was 5.

I knew a few people with fall birthdays who were redshirted, which seemed to be more at the discretion of the parents. Other than people who had repeated a year, the oldest person in my class probably turned 18 in September or October of our senior year. There were a few people who didn't turn 17 until late November. That's about it.

[hopecounts]

Cut off is Sept. 1 which is the norm for the state I live in.

It kills me that she now hates school because she is so smart academically but now the social aspects are affecting her performance because she dreads anything school related and because she "failed" kindergarten is afraid she isn't as smart as the other kids.

I just see how negatively not red-shirting her has hurt her and it bothers me.

[mrsjuleshs]

DD's birthday is ON the cut off date for our district and I did send her to school. She was 4 for the first 2 weeks of kindergarten. Initially she did struggle a bit with reading but now that she is older she is in AP classes and doing wonderfully. She won't get her license till after she starts her Jr. year. The ages of the kids in her grade is pretty broad since some did red shirt the kids so they will turn 15 mid 8th grade while there are others like my daughter will turn 13 during 8th grade.

[feedthecrocs]

As I've said in past red shirting threads, I'm completely against it in most cases. I wish we'd stuck with the terminology of "holding back" since this is really what this is. Cut off here is 5 by December 31st, DD will turn 5 half way through her kindy year and I'm completely ok with that. I don't think the kids in her class that will be 18 months older (or more) than her really equals putting everyone on a level playing field at all.

[Deleted]

I'm gonna go ahead and be flammable here. If my kid isn't ready for K, they'll have to repeat the grade and we'll move on.

Unless there is a developmental delay you can point to, I think it's silly to redshirt, even for so called social immaturity. You really think they are maturing at home with mommy or at daycare with younger children?

[Deleted]

Jul 9, 2012 11:10:16 GMT -5 hopecounts said:

Cut off is Sept. 1 which is the norm for the state I live in.

It kills me that she now hates school because she is so smart academically but now the social aspects are affecting her performance because she dreads anything school related and because she "failed" kindergarten is afraid she isn't as smart as the other kids.

I just see how negatively not red-shirting her has hurt her and it bothers me.

And you don't think part of this had to do with how her parents and teacher handled her academic progress more so than actually failing K?

But I admit bias. I'm not necessarily convinced that not being ready is the primary reason a kid fails K.

[Deleted]

I was the youngest kid in my class (of about 30 kids). Because I went to school in the middle of nowhere, this lasted my whole K-12 school career.

I kicked butt academically and sucked at sports. I didn't piece together why I sucked at sports until I was an adult, and the damage is done. I hate team sports. It took me years to discover ways to exercise that I didn't hate.

All things considered, I'm glad I went to K at 4. I wanted to go. My mom had the choice and decided to send me. None of those other 30 kids is playing pro sports, so I guess it didn't really matter.

[faith194]

I was not redshirted(I was a preemie, due date April, born in Feb), and had some slight delays. I went on to first grade, but then needed to repeat it(there were several of us). They called it "pre-first" to soften the blow, even though most of the class moved on to second grade. I never felt bad about repeating a grade. I moved through several different schools due to my father's job after 2nd grade. I ended up graduating 8th in my class, and was a Presidential Scholar. I graduated HS when I was 19. No social issues. I never felt bad about being older.

My brother repeated K(he was born Dec. 21st, and was 5 and a half when he started school). He ended up with a learning disability, and struggled through school. He was also 19 when he graduated. I don't think he ever felt bad about repeating K, but I know he had bigger fish to fry with a learning disability.

Our sister was 17 when she graduated HS and was a solid C/B student. She struggled quite a bit in college--She turns 24 today, and still doesn't know what she wants to do with her life(she went to 5 different colleges and changed her major 3 times--She is one semester from graduating, but hasn't gone back to finish her degree). She is a flaky one, so I don't know if one extra year/graduating later would have helped her.

DS has a late Oct birthday. I want him to go at 4 if he is ready, DH is worried about him being the youngest(He was one of the youngest/smallest in his class and was picked on quite a bit). We have 2 years to battle this out, though! Being held back did not profoundly affect me.

It is such a tough decision.

[Deleted]

I think red shirting your kids for a possible sports advantage is flat out stupid. An extra year isn't going to magically make a child more coordinated.

Plus, I'm squicked out by the idea of deciding what interests your child will have before they're old enough to express it. This isn't Soviet Russia. You don't have to decide your kid is a future Olympian to get a better place on the housing list.

[cookiemdough]

I don't really get the sports advantage thing. Don't most people recognize whether the ability is due to age versus natural skill? My kid started flag football in the spring and he is 4. It was so funny that there was a team that was comprised of mostly 6 and 7 year olds. The cutoff is for ages 4-6 but if you turn 7 during that time you can stay in the league.

Parents were all like they are soooooooo good (referring to the team with all 6-7 year olds). Um yeah, they are two years older than most of the teams here, does that really demonstrate that they are stellar athletes when you can beat a team of 4 year olds that is just learning to play?

[Deleted]

I have a couple friends who I'll give a pass to, such as a Sept, 29th birthday and the cut off is Sept 30th, or on the spectruum with a September birthday. I'll even give a pass to 2 friends whose boys were severely ill when they were 4 (surgeries, hospitalizations, etc) and they were winter babies. However, I roll my eyes at holding back your Spring birthday son no matter what the reason.

Also, as it has been explained to me, DS2 will get more sped services as a 1st grader than he would as a kindergartener.

[hopecounts]

Jul 9, 2012 11:19:13 GMT -5 @habbsies said:

Jul 9, 2012 11:10:16 GMT -5 hopecounts said:

Cut off is Sept. 1 which is the norm for the state I live in.

It kills me that she now hates school because she is so smart academically but now the social aspects are affecting her performance because she dreads anything school related and because she "failed" kindergarten is afraid she isn't as smart as the other kids.

I just see how negatively not red-shirting her has hurt her and it bothers me.

And you don't think part of this had to do with how her parents and teacher handled her academic progress more so than actually failing K?

But I admit bias. I'm not necessarily convinced that not being ready is the primary reason a kid fails K.

I can't speak to the teacher or Bio Mom but I saw the way my BIL and Sis handled it (primary custody) and I they are/were positive and encouraging.
Worked with her and made a big deal about how good she did, etc. They also have the 3 older girls (1 of whom was redshirted for an august Bday) who do very well in school and enjoy it so the overall presentation of school is positive in the home.

[ringstrue]

Jul 9, 2012 11:19:13 GMT -5 @habbsies said:

Jul 9, 2012 11:10:16 GMT -5 hopecounts said:

Cut off is Sept. 1 which is the norm for the state I live in.

It kills me that she now hates school because she is so smart academically but now the social aspects are affecting her performance because she dreads anything school related and because she "failed" kindergarten is afraid she isn't as smart as the other kids.

I just see how negatively not red-shirting her has hurt her and it bothers me.

And you don't think part of this had to do with how her parents and teacher handled her academic progress more so than actually failing K?

But I admit bias. I'm not necessarily convinced that not being ready is the primary reason a kid fails K.

Ditto this.

[Deleted]

I guess I'm just loathe to believe that not redshirting a kid is the sole reason K didn't go well for a child. I think it might be rather shortsighted if not an abdication of responsibility to say, welp, if only they were older.

After all, you can't change a child's age.

[ttt]

Jul 9, 2012 11:34:28 GMT -5 @habbsies said:

I think red shirting your kids for a possible sports advantage is flat out stupid. An extra year isn't going to magically make a child more coordinated.

Plus, I'm squicked out by the idea of deciding what interests your child will have before they're old enough to express it. This isn't Soviet Russia. You don't have to decide your kid is a future Olympian to get a better place on the housing list.

It doesn't make your kid more coordinated, it just ensures that he'll be competing against kids who are younger and smaller, thus making him look better by comparison. It's basically stacking the deck in your kids favor rather than actually improving your kids skills and talents. Which is utterly ridiculous.

[ttt]

Jul 9, 2012 11:47:13 GMT -5 @habbsies said:

I guess I'm just loathe to believe that not redshirting a kid is the sole reason K didn't go well for a child. I think it might be rather shortsighted if not an abdication of responsibility to say, welp, if only they were older.

After all, you can't change a child's age.

I for one think I would do awesome in kindergarten now, now that I'm ready for it.

[Deleted]

Jul 9, 2012 11:49:45 GMT -5 ttt said:

I for one think I would do awesome in kindergarten now, now that I'm ready for it.

And I wouldn't even need my mommy to help me with my homework.

[mishap]

DS1 has an Aug. birthday, and we contemplated briefly holding him back. But our cutoff is Dec. 1 and although many summer bdays are still held back in our district, it's not as widespread. He was the second youngest in his class.

Academically, DS did fantastic in K. He did struggle a little socially and was a bit immature compared with the other boys. But as a PP said, it made much more sense to put him with more mature kids -- better for him to mimic the more mature kids than the other immature kids like him.

All the talk of wanting kids to be "leaders" in the segment made me roll my eyes. I don't think this is a trait that can necessarily be determined or manipulated by age.

Parents used to want their kids to "play up" in sports -- they would get better by being forced to play harder. Now many parents want their kids to excel by highlighting them next to less-able kids.

[kadams767]

This is crazy to me. What happens when the majority of parents start "redshirting" and all the kids start late? Then no one has a leg up anymore. Is the cycle just going to repeat itself? Eventually, kids won't start K until they are 7? How ridiculous.

[ttt]

Jul 9, 2012 11:59:38 GMT -5 kadams767 said:

This is crazy to me. What happens when the majority of parents start "redshirting" and all the kids start late? Then no one has a leg up anymore. Is the cycle just going to repeat itself? Eventually, kids won't start K until they are 7? How ridiculous.

And then they'll be 19-20 when they graduate from high school.

[kadams767]

Jul 9, 2012 12:00:55 GMT -5 ttt said:

Jul 9, 2012 11:59:38 GMT -5 kadams767 said:

This is crazy to me. What happens when the majority of parents start "redshirting" and all the kids start late? Then no one has a leg up anymore. Is the cycle just going to repeat itself? Eventually, kids won't start K until they are 7? How ridiculous.

And then they'll be 19-20 when they graduate from high school.

Yep, that seems healthy.

[ttt]

Jul 9, 2012 12:00:49 GMT -5 @mrdobalina said:

wait, why do we care when other people put their kids in school? I have to say this doesn't worry me at all...

I care if my daughter is going to be 11 years old in a class with 13-14 year old boys.

It messes things up for everyone, teachers included, because now they're not teaching for a class of 'regular' kindergarteners, they're teaching a wide range of skill levels and maturity levels, much wider than it would be if all the kids were basically the same age. Some systems are designed for that, like Montessori, and take these things into account with their curricula and teaching methods, but the traditional school system is not set up for it at all.

Plus, would you want your 6 year old playing tackle football against 9 year olds??

[mishap]

Jul 9, 2012 12:00:49 GMT -5 @mrdobalina said:

wait, why do we care when other people put their kids in school? I have to say this doesn't worry me at all...

It matters when your kid's school starts altering their expectations of what's appropriate for a grade. DS was scored on word comprehension and compared with his peers in the class for a grade on his report card. Considering there could be an 18-month difference in ages, the accuracy of the score isn't very accurate, in my opinion, nor the grade on his report card.

Now, whether kindergarten report card grades matter is another question.

[kadams767]

Jul 9, 2012 12:00:49 GMT -5 @mrdobalina said:

wait, why do we care when other people put their kids in school? I have to say this doesn't worry me at all...

Well, for one, a society that doesn't graduate from high school until 20 years old sounds like a big problem. I am sure that is going to do wonders for graduation and drop-out rates. If you can legally drop out at 16, that would be what, an 8th grade education at this rate? Doesn't seem beneficial for a country which is already lagging behind much of the world in the education department.

[ttt]

Jul 9, 2012 12:06:12 GMT -5 @mrdobalina said:

Jul 9, 2012 12:04:10 GMT -5 ttt said:

I care if my daughter is going to be 11 years old in a class with 13-14 year old boys.

It messes things up for everyone, teachers included, because now they're not teaching for a class of 'regular' kindergarteners, they're teaching a wide range of skill levels and maturity levels, much wider than it would be if all the kids were basically the same age. Some systems are designed for that, like Montessori, and take these things into account with their curricula and teaching methods, but the traditional school system is not set up for it at all.

Plus, would you want your 6 year old playing tackle football against 9 year olds??

what school allows tackle football? seriously...and youth leagues are based on age.

Pretty much every school in the south has tackle football, and while I don't know, I'm guessing in the midwest as well.

Didn't you see the post above about the youth league allowing kids to redshirt and allowing 7 year olds to play against 4 year olds?

Even if they're not playing tackle in elementary school, what about middle school or high school? You're going to have a 13 year old 8th grader playing against a 16 year old 8th grader?

[laurenpetro]

Jul 9, 2012 12:06:12 GMT -5 @mrdobalina said:

Jul 9, 2012 12:04:10 GMT -5 ttt said:

I care if my daughter is going to be 11 years old in a class with 13-14 year old boys.

It messes things up for everyone, teachers included, because now they're not teaching for a class of 'regular' kindergarteners, they're teaching a wide range of skill levels and maturity levels, much wider than it would be if all the kids were basically the same age. Some systems are designed for that, like Montessori, and take these things into account with their curricula and teaching methods, but the traditional school system is not set up for it at all.

Plus, would you want your 6 year old playing tackle football against 9 year olds??

what school allows tackle football? seriously...and youth leagues are based on age.

my school does in NYS.

and yes, leagues are based on age. anything in school, however, is based on grade.

[laurenpetro]

Jul 9, 2012 12:15:05 GMT -5 @mrdobalina said:

tackle football in gym class? Learn something new everyday. That'd be like Christmas for lawyers in NYC, I would think.

recess.

[kadams767]

Even if it isn't tackle football, it will be something else. Do you want a 6 year getting pummeled by a 9 year old playing dodgeball?

[sandipluschris]

Jul 9, 2012 12:04:10 GMT -5 ttt said:

Jul 9, 2012 12:00:49 GMT -5 @mrdobalina said:

wait, why do we care when other people put their kids in school? I have to say this doesn't worry me at all...

I care if my daughter is going to be 11 years old in a class with 13-14 year old boys.

It messes things up for everyone, teachers included, because now they're not teaching for a class of 'regular' kindergarteners, they're teaching a wide range of skill levels and maturity levels, much wider than it would be if all the kids were basically the same age. Some systems are designed for that, like Montessori, and take these things into account with their curricula and teaching methods, but the traditional school system is not set up for it at all.

Plus, would you want your 6 year old playing tackle football against 9 year olds??

This is what concerns me. My son's birthdate is 10 days before the cut off and I am torn as to whether to send him or put him in an all day Pre-K program. I know I don't want him in "daycare" with kids one and two years younger than him for another year BUT - I'm not sure I want him in a K class with kids one to two years older than him either.

DS will do part time Pre-K this year and I'm hoping to work closely with the teacher to make sure we make the best decision for him. I couldn't care less about an edge for him - I just dont' want to set him up for failure. With so many parents holding these kids back for a year, it certainly does make an uneven playing field.

[IIOY]

Jul 9, 2012 11:59:38 GMT -5 kadams767 said:

This is crazy to me. What happens when the majority of parents start "redshirting" and all the kids start late? Then no one has a leg up anymore. Is the cycle just going to repeat itself? Eventually, kids won't start K until they are 7? How ridiculous.

This point was made in the story.

The parent in the story who red-shirted listed the things her son could already do by the time he entered Kindergarten. All I could think was that in a world where teachers simply don't have the time or resources to be adequately responsive to a broad spectrum of abilities within a single classroom, that kid is probably going to be ignored and bored as hell.