My son's birthday is 9 days before the cut-off and I have no doubt he will be the youngest in his class by a mile. This is absolutely a decision I'm willing to defend: academically he is ready. Why on earth would I let him sit through another year of pre-school, bored to tears?
The socioeconomic issue was interesting to me and one I hadn't previously heard.
The socioeconomic is one of my biggest reasons for thinking that the schools should force these kids to come on time or throw in 1st grade.
i had a long talk with my son's developmental pediatrician about this. DS2 tested in the 99% on the Woodcock Johnson but is socially immature. Putting DS2 back in K this year with younger kids won't make him mature socially, but being around older kids will.
Oh and not being the youngest trickles down to the point of ridiculousness. Our neighbor's son is 2 weeks younger than my DS1 yet is in the same grade as my DS2 who is 18 mos younger than DS1.
But you're neighbor's son will be able to drive in an earlier grade! It's the important things!
My kid will be in boarding school and won't need a car :-)
Coming out of the east coast prep school scene, why would you hold your kid back in K? then you can't hold them back in 9th grade when they go off to prep school. The kids in my class that repeated 9th grade were the ones taking Calc II as seniors and looked pretty impressive to colleges without the colleges knowing they did 5 years of high school.
Post by MixedBerryJam on Jul 9, 2012 6:01:04 GMT -5
My son started K at 4 (10 days before the cutoff) when we lived overseas, which was not an issue for me because I knew we were planning to move back to the States within the year and I was planning on him repeating K here. We didn't move back, he didn't repeat K and he'll be 15 starting his junior year. He does not like being the youngest (also by a mile) of his group, even though driving is not really the issue, since he and his entire group of friends have that mentality of "why should I learn to drive when you can drive me places AND pay for the gas?" (different issue). But even at 15 I still see developmental differences between him and his peers when it comes to impulses and judgement. There is a little part of me that regrets starting him so early, but no matter when or where I started him, once I started him, I could not have held him back. He's pretty stellar academically, and would not really have been a candidate for holding back. Like most of the rest of the parenting decisions we make, it's all a crapshoot.
My son started K at 4 (10 days before the cutoff) when we lived overseas, which was not an issue for me because I knew we were planning to move back to the States within the year and I was planning on him repeating K here. We didn't move back, he didn't repeat K and he'll be 15 starting his junior year. He does not like being the youngest (also by a mile) of his group, even though driving is not really the issue, since he and his entire group of friends have that mentality of "why should I learn to drive when you can drive me places AND pay for the gas?" (different issue). But even at 15 I still see developmental differences between him and his peers when it comes to impulses and judgement. There is a little part of me that regrets starting him so early, but no matter when or where I started him, once I started him, I could not have held him back. He's pretty stellar academically, and would not really have been a candidate for holding back. Like most of the rest of the parenting decisions we make, it's all a crapshoot.
You are describing my SD. She's 15 and starting 11th grade. She won't turn 16 until December. Her big thing though is not wanting to take drivers ed because it is going to be all freshmen and she's too cool for Freshmen.
I don't think you can win. No matter what choice I make, I'll always wonder what if.
[quote author=iioy board=general thread=29371 post=449675 Coming out of the east coast prep school scene, why would you hold your kid back in K? then you can't hold them back in 9th grade when they go off to prep school. The kids in my class that repeated 9th grade were the ones taking Calc II as seniors and looked pretty impressive to colleges without the colleges knowing they did 5 years of high school.
How does that work? Do they intentionlly flunk 9th grade - but then I wouldn't think you'd be ahead on anything as you'd have to re-take subjects.
[quote author=iioy board=general thread=29371 post=449675 Coming out of the east coast prep school scene, why would you hold your kid back in K? then you can't hold them back in 9th grade when they go off to prep school. The kids in my class that repeated 9th grade were the ones taking Calc II as seniors and looked pretty impressive to colleges without the colleges knowing they did 5 years of high school.
How does that work? Do they intentionlly flunk 9th grade - but then I wouldn't think you'd be ahead on anything as you'd have to re-take subjects.
you just go in as a 9th grader. you have to retake 9th grade english, but every school has a different curriculum so it isn't going to be the same. Math you just go where you belong same with foreign language so if you took Spanish 2 and Geometry your 1st 9th grade year you come into new prep school taking Spanish 3 and Algebra II
Post by SusanBAnthony on Jul 9, 2012 6:58:04 GMT -5
We are holding DS back. I feel pretty ok with it bc he is a September bday, so in some districts he would miss the cut-off, but ours is one of the few who would let him start.
He is small, socially immature, and has other special needs. In some ways more rigorous K expectations might help him. In other ways I think they would set him up for failure. Right now we are trying to do what we think will help him socially the most, and keep him from hating school. It depresses me when I think about it.
DD on the other hand, no questions, would go to Kindy now if I let her
I was like your SD, septimus. I wasn't eligible to take Driver's Ed until the summer before my junior year, and all of my friends in my class took it the year before. So I had to take it with all the kids a grade behind me (and some freshman - the gap for redshirting wasn't quite so large yet).
Jackson's preschool teacher told me that they think the cut off date is going to change here, though - and that I won't have a choice when Scarlett goes b/c she will be after the cut off then.
It's funny - I really think you can't "win" either way. Jackson is one day past the cut off so he starts this year. I definitely think he's ready - he's reading, he does a lot of math stuff already (addition/subtraction) - but he's also a big kid. I can't tell you the number of times in the past 2 years we have been out and about on a school day and someone asks me why he isn't in school... and I'm like, he's FOUR, muthafucka! And then this past year, once he was 5, I had to explain his birthday is past the cutoff. Meanwhile, he had a girl who turned SIX in March in his preschool class.
Post by One Girl In All The World on Jul 9, 2012 8:40:17 GMT -5
Ds's preschool teachers really seem to encourage redshirting when it comes up. It's a really common practice here for all the most aggravating reasons - being the smallest, youngest, etc. I don't get why being around younger kids would make a kid more ready/mature aside from the time factor. Gavin was nearly the youngest in his preschool class and being around "older" kids did wonders for him. I think at his school though we are going to be pushing the age back soon, which means Abby will miss the new cutoff for the 2 year class. Which means we will have to find another school or not send her until 3 - I have no intention of holding her back though so in that case she would start in the 3 year class (the date change would oly apply to the 2yo class).
My step-niece has a June Bday and her Bio Mom opted not to red shirt her, she ended up doing badly in K b/c she wasn't ready and had to repeat it. She now hates school because she's embarrassed to see her friends from her first K year (she's in 3rd and literally has told her Dad this) I'd 100% err on the side of red shirting to this. Better to start late, then repeat and have the label of "failing".
We are holding DS back. I feel pretty ok with it bc he is a September bday, so in some districts he would miss the cut-off, but ours is one of the few who would let him start.
He is small, socially immature, and has other special needs. In some ways more rigorous K expectations might help him. In other ways I think they would set him up for failure. Right now we are trying to do what we think will help him socially the most, and keep him from hating school. It depresses me when I think about it.
DD on the other hand, no questions, would go to Kindy now if I let her
My DS sounds very much like your son (small, socially immature, other minor special needs). He had a birthday a few months before the cutoff and after consulting with his preschool teachers, daycare, and the local school, we decided to put him into K last year on time. At the time we all felt the routine (everyday, full day, same teacher and kids, under the umbrella of school services) would benefit him behaviorally. Long story short: it did in some ways, but this past March his teacher told us she really felt he could benefit from another year in K. We agreed, as did his psychologist. We had to take it up to the superintendent to get the district to agree to retain him. It was an exhausting and emotional ordeal, mainly because as his parents we felt like here we were advocating for him to be allowed to fail, if that makes sense. So don't second guess your decision and don't be depressed about it. I've never heard anyone who regretted holding their child back a year at this age. (anecdote alert: My mom didn't do it with my brother and she still regrets it 22 years later).
There's a lot of judgement out there on parents who red-shirt, and I can see in some cases where it's warranted...where the parents want an extra leg up for sports, for example. But the vast majority of parents who red-shirt for K do it so their kids can have a level playing field, not an advantage. They do it after researching extensively, and after consultations with teachers, doctors, etc. Not on a whim. The standards are higher and the individual student support is decreasing even in the best public schools. My son would have been eaten alive in first grade by the social and academic expectations. This gives him some breathing room and allows his school experience to be a positive one, not one where's he's playing catch-up everyday.
There's a lot of judgement out there on parents who red-shirt, and I can see in some cases where it's warranted...where the parents want an extra leg up for sports, for example. But the vast majority of parents who red-shirt for K do it so their kids can have a level playing field, not an advantage. They do it after researching extensively, and after consultations with teachers, doctors, etc. Not on a whim.
The 60 Minutes story focuses on parents who do it for the advantage in sports, etc.. The token red-shirting mom (there is also a token non-red-shirting mom featured) makes clear that she red-shirted for the sake of a having a bigger, stronger kid and, among other things, the benefit to his baseball skills. Unless I missed it, her son had no developmental issues, physical, emotional, academic, etc., that warranted holding him back. It was done purely for the "advantage" of it.
A child who truly isn't developmentally ready for K is a different ball of wax in many, if not most, cases, although as the piece makes clear, socioeconomic factors arise that complicate even this scenario.
ETA: Also, the angle of the piece was the pressure that parents feel to red-shirt kids when it's not actually necessary. In other words, the judgment is on the parents that don't, at least in certain areas. It looks as though septimus lives in one of those areas. Anecdotally, we have incurred same raised eyebrows with the decision to send our son to K this coming year, although I don't feel particularly judged for it in the grand scheme, at least not to the extent described in the story.
I didn't read the article, but my personal experience tells me that there are definitely good reasons to red-shirt.
My DDs are both very young for their grade level...#1 actually didn't make the cut-off but since she'd already gone to K before we moved here the school tested her for placement and put her in a 1st grade classroom. So she's probably the youngest kid entering 4th grade at her school this year, if not then absolutely one of the youngest. DD #2 makes the cut-off by one month, and was the youngest in her class so among the youngest in the grade as well.
#1 did amazingly well and is in the advanced program. Good decision for her. But #2 struggles. She has fine motor skill issues. She's socially immature, although she did come leaps and bounds during K. Reading is a problem, as well. She meets state benchmarks, but is below where the school would like it's rising 1st graders to be, to the point where her K teacher asked me about my thoughts on retention. I chose not to do it...I'd done my research, and everything showed me that retention did more harm than good in most cases. But I know that 1st grade will be a huge challenge for us and I'm already preparing myself for DD being frustrated and resistant. Had I known this time last year what I know now, I might have given her that extra year of preschool. Not for any advantage over other kids, but for her to be at least toward the middle of the pack rather than at the bottom.
well, preschool teachers have a REASON to encourage redshirting- $$.
I used to teach kindergarten and I'm very against redshirting. I had some very young little boys in my classes- and they caught up just fine- maturity, too.
My twins are june birthdays and will not be redshirted- so likely will be the youngest in their class. I'm totally OK with that. No biggie.
My nephew started school in Australia - and now they moved back to the US - in the middle of his school year there, but it's summer here... so he has a choice to start 2nd over or go into 3rd... they are going to put him in 2nd grade --- he's small for his age, he only got 1/2 way through 2nd so putting him into 3rd would have him start behind (likely- they aren't sure how much the curriculum matches up), etc. In this case I totally support holding him back - but this is an odd situation, not common, etc.
There's a lot of judgement out there on parents who red-shirt, and I can see in some cases where it's warranted...where the parents want an extra leg up for sports, for example. But the vast majority of parents who red-shirt for K do it so their kids can have a level playing field, not an advantage. They do it after researching extensively, and after consultations with teachers, doctors, etc. Not on a whim. The standards are higher and the individual student support is decreasing even in the best public schools. My son would have been eaten alive in first grade by the social and academic expectations. This gives him some breathing room and allows his school experience to be a positive one, not one where's he's playing catch-up everyday.
to the bolded, IME, you could not be more wrong.
the "vast majority" of parents don't have kids with special needs. the "vast majority" of parents do it because they don't want their kid to be the youngest.
your child needed to stay back a year. it happens. but i can't tell you how many parents say to me when they find out that DD is the youngest in the class that they're "sorry". what they're sorry for, i can't imagine. what i'm sorry for is that they're going to have a child that's 19 in high school.
i don't think you should be able to hold your child back to the point where they're 18 months older than the youngest child in the class.
The socioeconomic is one of my biggest reasons for thinking that the schools should force these kids to come on time or throw in 1st grade.
i had a long talk with my son's developmental pediatrician about this. DS2 tested in the 99% on the Woodcock Johnson but is socially immature. Putting DS2 back in K this year with younger kids won't make him mature socially, but being around older kids will.
Yep. That's all I'm taking away from this entire thread. Tee hee! Woodcock Johnson.
Post by noonecareswhoiam on Jul 9, 2012 9:41:27 GMT -5
My DS#1 is a March baby, but when he started his Montessori at 3, he was the smallest kid in the SCHOOL. He's also very shy and hardly said a word his first year there. He cried at dropoff every day for a month, and after every vacation. I feared we made a terrible mistake and that he wasn't ready, but everyone urged me to stick it out.
Now he's a rising 2nd grader, LOVES his school, chats up and storm and is one of the guys. He's still tiny, though;) I think we forget what a year means in child development, and that barring any REAL special needs (as in, identified by a developmental ped and requiring services) kids will all gravitate toward the norm. Seeing older kids in a real school setting, rather than preschool, can be helpful. *use of anecdote to serve as example of something I'm not inclined to dig up a reference for, but know my husband could cite off the top of his head*
Our school district doesn't permit redshirting, but parents get around that by sending kids to private school for K and 1st grade and transfering them for second grade. Now THAT is determination!
What is the red-shirt non-athlete reasoning behind the kid being smaller? Is it just that Kindergarten is a rougher scene? Recess issues? DD switches up rooms every 6 months at her daycare and I've found that the older the kids are better they are for her to be around because they mind the teachers better and aren't into shoving and whatnot and know how to share/play better. She isn't small but she isn't physically tough either, I'd say.
Re: to the bolded, IME, you could not be more wrong.
the "vast majority" of parents don't have kids with special needs. the "vast majority" of parents do it because they don't want their kid to be the youngest.
your child needed to stay back a year. it happens. but i can't tell you how many parents say to me when they find out that DD is the youngest in the class that they're "sorry". what they're sorry for, i can't imagine. what i'm sorry for is that they're going to have a child that's 19 in high school. i don't think you should be able to hold your child back to the point where they're 18 months older than the youngest child in the class.
THIS. There are 12 children at my DD's pre-school who are not sending them on to K. Really wrong. I wish our district didn't allow re-shirting. 8-D
Someone has to be the youngest kid in the class. Someone has to be the smallest, and at the back of the pack. Nobody can face the idea of their child failing at ANYTHING so parents have to rig the system to make sure their child isn't the one at the back.
Re: to the bolded, IME, you could not be more wrong.
the "vast majority" of parents don't have kids with special needs. the "vast majority" of parents do it because they don't want their kid to be the youngest.
your child needed to stay back a year. it happens. but i can't tell you how many parents say to me when they find out that DD is the youngest in the class that they're "sorry". what they're sorry for, i can't imagine. what i'm sorry for is that they're going to have a child that's 19 in high school. i don't think you should be able to hold your child back to the point where they're 18 months older than the youngest child in the class.
THIS. There are 12 children at my DD's pre-school who are not sending them on to K. Really wrong. I wish our district didn't allow re-shirting.
In some ways, this is one of the biggest 'cons' of not going by the age requirements. Instead of teaching kids that are, for the most part, 1 calendar year 'different' from youngest to eldest, you've got a 2 year span--that makes education in general that much harder (it's not about intelligence or physical stuff, it's about the developmental differences between 4 and 6--attention span, maturity, etc.)
I don't have an easy answer (and I'll be figuring this out in 3 years, stupid September birthday), but the variety of age ranges makes the entire thing more complicated.
Someone has to be the youngest kid in the class. Someone has to be the smallest, and at the back of the pack. Nobody can face the idea of their child failing at ANYTHING so parents have to rig the system to make sure their child isn't the one at the back.
Malcolm Gladwell read my mind when he said something along the lines that parents are grasping at every straw to gain an advantage for their kids and he wondered if we as a society are going to look back at how we raised our children and wonder what the hell we were thinking.
Re: Someone has to be the youngest kid in the class. Someone has to be the smallest, and at the back of the pack. Nobody can face the idea of their child failing at ANYTHING so parents have to rig the system to make sure their child isn't the one at the back.
Malcolm Gladwell read my mind when he said something along the lines that parents are grasping at every straw to gain an advantage for their kids and he wondered if we as a society are going to look back at how we raised our children and wonder what the hell we were thinking.
This too - I appreciated Morely Safer when he described the red-shirt mom as giving her son an "unsportsmanlike" advantage. Rigging the system so your child has an extra edge teaches them the wrong lesson about sports and life.
I also think... that since so many parents are holding their kids back that sports team (Little League, Pee Wee soccer etc.) should def' be based on age and not school grade. If I were in charge of these things I'd ask parents to bring me a birth certificate to confirm their age too. Ridiculous that we have to do this.
and for WHAT, i ask you! i feel the same way about redshirters (okay, maybe more annoyed with redshirters) as i do about people who push push push their kids into school early or try to force grade skipping.
in the former case, so, great. junior can have some glory days in high school and sing about them like john mellencamp in 20 years after he comes home from his long day as a middle manager for giantcorp, LLC. in the later, junior can graduate early, get a job and start paying taxes earlier, and focus on that as a chief accomplishment for the rest of his life ("did you know i'd only barely turned 17 at my high school graduation? did you? DID YOU?") when he comes home from his long day as a middle manager for giantcorp, LLC.
the middle class and upper middle class especially is raising their kids to be forever adolescently unexceptional in their alleged exeptionalism, and that's why people focus to the point of myopia on an alleged level playing field or an advantage for the schooling years. without focusing on building real life skills.
note: i have no idea how to fix this. i just like complaining.