Help with ultra training plan, please

[biomaj5]

I'm (still) finalizing my training plan for the year. I have it all mapped out, of course, but I'm going through it and adjusting little things (formatting, adding up total weekly mileage, etc). But 2/3 of it is from an ultra plan, and I don't really know what some of the terminology means.

For reference, I'm doing the Andy Payne Marathon on Sept 14, and the 12hr road option of 24 the Hard Way (a 24 hr or 12hr or 6hr ultramarathon) on Oct 25. I'd like to hit 50 miles in that 12hrs. I've only ever used Hal Higdon plans for my half and marathon training. I basically took the Runner's World ultra training plan and tacked on the first 12 weeks of the hal higdon novice 1 marathon plan to the beginning, with a few tweaks to make it fit my schedule.

Questions:
1. What does "6-10 miles, including 4x1 mile at ten mile pace" mean? Do I run 6, or 10? How do I decide? Are the 4 miles of TMP supposed to be together? Or just 4 of them somewhere in there should be at 10 mile pace? Also, I've never run a 10 mile race, so idk what my pace should be.

2. There are often back to back long runs on Sat and Sunday. They're all for time rather than distance. I'm used to HH, where he tells me how far to run and I record the time. I'm assuming that I should have some sort of goal pace for these runs to try to get a certain amount of mileage, right? For example, right now I know that on an average long run, I can expect to hit 6 miles around 1:05ish.

Training for an ultra is all about time on your feet, right? It makes me just a little nervous to have time spent running on the plan rather than set miles with a marathon in there. But that could just be the control freak in me.

[kams]

Ultras! You're an animal!

So time vs. mileage. My favorite. That is how my ironman plan is. Really takes the pressure off. It is about time on your feet. Don't worry about it. If you're following HR zones, then pay attention to that, but otherwise just run and look around and enjoy!

As for the interval set: You run 6-10 miles that day. I would do 1 or 2 miles warm up. 1 mile at 10m pace, 1 minute (or however long you decide on) jog interval, and do that 4 times. Don't do 4 miles at 10mp back to back without some kind of rest - that would be tempo instead of intervals. 1 or 2 mile cool down to finish you off between 6 & 10 miles.

Plug your other results into a pace calculator to get a 10 mile pace.

[biomaj5]

I think I still fall under the insanse/possibly delusional category until I've finished the ultra lol.

So the time vs miles thing doesn't make you twitchy? I guess I feel more comfortable with miles. Idk why; maybe it's more compatible with my methodical spreadsheet-loving heart. But I can embrace change. Probably. I want to do an Ironman before I'm 40 (and any distance tri by 35-I'm 30 now), so I should probably get used to this type of training. The long time frame is because I won't have time to learn how to swim until after I graduate in May 2016.

How bad would it be if I threw in an easy group bike ride on Saturdays before I do the first of the 2 weekend long runs? I really don't want to give up the bike ride if I don't have to, or at least not until closer to the ultra.

[shorewife]

Time vs distance made me a little twitchy for my first tri training plan, but then I noticed if I rode for an hour for example and the plan said cover 16-18miles in that time it generally worked out.

I think a bike ride would be beneficial after your long runs, but probably not right before.

[kams]

I follow the time plan just as I do the mileage plan, so I still feel in "control" - not too twitchy. I still know how many miles I do.

I know ppl who do triathlon and ultras and I know they make time for all of it somehow, but I don't think I would personally add anything but maybe restorative yoga to a dbl long run weekend. Or, at least until your body adapts. As it is getting warmer and the days are getting longer, could you maybe fit an hour ride on a weekday instead? I don't want to discourage you - do whatever works for you - personally I just think it would be too much for me without a monstrous fitness base.

[gumi]

Apr 25, 2014 20:53:47 GMT -5 biomaj5 said:

Questions:
1. What does "6-10 miles, including 4x1 mile at ten mile pace" mean? Do I run 6, or 10? How do I decide? Are the 4 miles of TMP supposed to be together? Or just 4 of them somewhere in there should be at 10 mile pace? Also, I've never run a 10 mile race, so idk what my pace should be.

2. There are often back to back long runs on Sat and Sunday. They're all for time rather than distance. I'm used to HH, where he tells me how far to run and I record the time. I'm assuming that I should have some sort of goal pace for these runs to try to get a certain amount of mileage, right? For example, right now I know that on an average long run, I can expect to hit 6 miles around 1:05ish.

Training for an ultra is all about time on your feet, right? It makes me just a little nervous to have time spent running on the plan rather than set miles with a marathon in there. But that could just be the control freak in me.

When the plan says, "6-10 miles", does it give a time range?  Because if the plan is suggesting, for example, a 75 minute run, for some that could be 6 miles and for others that could be 10 miles. I would just guess that 10 mile pace would be slightly faster than your half pace.  

I was reading how Shalane uses 8-minute miles to clock her mileage.  So, if she runs 80 minutes, she says it 10 miles.  I think that is odd since obviously she runs more than 10 miles, but oddly enough though, I do the same thing.  These days I never look at my mileage until the END of the workout and I just cover time. If I want to run 8 miles, I run for 64 minutes because then I know I get at least 8 miles.  I didn't realize that I was actually using a real method - it's called "Badger Miles." And it doesn't have to be 8-min miles, it just has to be a pace that you feel comfortable averaging.

I would not "throw in" a bike ride or ANYTHING.  I think when you do something like an ultra, you really have to commit. Otherwise, the plan just won't be as effective or you will get injured from doing too much.  Cylcing seems innocent to runners because its easy on the joints, but all that repetitive motion should not be taken for granted. Plus, it will take away your energy from  the very important long runs.

Good luck!!

[joenali]

I think if you are going to bike it should be an easy spin. Nothing hard, nothing long. Just spin out those tired legs!

[biomaj5]

I only have time for 2 bike rides per week: a long, harder group ride on Wednesday evenings; and a 20ish mile, relatively easier-paced group ride on Saturday mornings. I had hoped to do the Sat morning ride and then do the run in the evening. I'll have to keep up the bike rides at least until June 21 because I have a tour de cure charity ride on that day; after that, I'll evaluate how the my body is handling it and possibly change my plans. I'll cut the sat ride out around mid-August, I think. I'm (probably naively) hoping that I can keep the Sat ride as long as possible. I'll find out the hard way I guess

I think my schedule will be this:
M-Rest
T-treadmill sprints, total of 3 miles (the sprints take up about 1/2 of that)
W-evening group bike ride
Th-recovery run, slower paced
F-Rest
S-group bike ride in morning, long run in evening
Su-long run

I am definitely planning to do the Sept marathon; I'm not 100% set in stone about doing the ultra, but I really want to try it. I'd like to do the 12hr option because I would consider that a challenge. I could also drop down to the 6hr option if I've bitten off more than I can chew with 12hrs. I'd rather train though and not end up doing it than not train, kwim? The price doesn't go up until August, so I have time to re-evaluate (both this race and my sanity lol).