Child psychopaths- this is scaring as fuck to me

[ceejay]

This is where the limits of my humanity might end. I'll get flamed but I don't think I could parent a child like this, that I'm actually scared of. I just wouldn't. I would have to hand over control to some other entity better equipped then myself. And depending on the level of crazy and violence, I would have no contact at all. Horrible of me, but true.

I once had a 7 yr old on my caseload who was just like this. I got him transferred off. We were told to raise a flag when working on cases or with populations where we'd do more harm then good, and this was mine. I didn't like being alone with him and didn't like being on his radar. He had the most sinister gleam in his eye when he talked about strange things. And he would track all the workers. He knew who drove what car, who parked where on which day, ...he was so creepy. I still google his name every now and then to see if he's done anything crazy. He'd be 14 now.

us.m.yahoo.com/w/ygo-frontpage/lp/story/us/2282664/coke.bp%3B_ylt=AuR8qkbfnffkq6dXBkbMhKOx.tw4%3B_ylu=X3oDMTFzaHZ0NG1mBGNwb3MDMwRjc2VjA21vYmlsZS10ZARpbnRsA3VzBHBrZwNpZC0yMjgyNjY0BHBvcwMzBHNsawNpbWFnZQ--?ref_w=frontdoors&view=today&.intl=us&.lang=en&.tsrc=yahoo



Can a young child really be a psychopath?The groundbreaking HBO documentary "Child of Rage" years ago showed how horrific abuse and neglect could leave a child unable to bond with other people, turning them into children "without conscience, who can hurt or even kill without remorse." In other words: the child becomes a psychopath .
But what about the kids who aren't abused? What about the ones who, for no discernible reason, do horrible things to other people?
Related: Why do children lie, cheat, and steal?
"I've always said that Michael will grow up to be either a Nobel Prize winner or a serial killer," his mother, Anne, tells Jennifer Kahn in a recent shocking New York Times Magazine article . At age 9, her son has an extreme temper, lashing out violently and deliberately and showing no empathy or remorse. He's intelligent, cold, calculating, and explosive. "It takes a toll," she says, explaining her comment. "There's not a lot of joy and happiness in raising Michael."
Experts are divided about whether it's right to label a child as a psychopath. On the one hand, their brains are still developing; since psychopathy is largely considered untreatable, such a label would carry a heavy, life-altering stigma. On the other hand, identifying "callous-unemotional" children early could allow for successful treatment -- or at least a heads-up to society.
But reaching such a diagnosis can be tricky. Certain tendencies, like narcissism and impulsiveness, that are obvious signs of a psychopath are also part and parcel of childhood. And callous-unemotional kids are often extremely intelligent; they're able to lie and manipulate without remorse, making it harder to understand what they're doing and why. "They don't care if someone is mad at them," Paul Frick, a psychologist at the University of New Orleans, told the New York Times. "They don't care if they hurt someone's feelings."
"If they can get what they want without being cruel, that's often easier," adds Frick, who has spent 20 years studying risk factors for psychopathy in children. "But at the end of the day, they'll do whatever works best."
The New York Times article mentions the case of 9-year-old Jeffrey Bailey Jr. , who in 1986 pushed a 3-year-old into the deep end of a Florida swimming pool and then pulled up a chair to watch the child drown; after the toddler died, Bailey got up and went home. It's a disturbing crime -- and there are other equally disturbing cases of young kids committing cold-blooded murder.
In 1993, Jon Venables and Robert Thompson, both 10 years old, took 2-year-old James Bulger by the hand and led the trusting toddler out of a shopping mall in Liverpool, England. Once away from the mall, they spent hours torturing him before beating him to death, reports said .In 1984, Joshua Phillips ' mother was cleaning his room when she discovered the dead body of their 8-year-old neighbor, Maddie Clifton, under his bed. The 14-year-old Phillips says he accidentally hit the girl in the eye with a baseball bat and then panicked when she screamed, so he took her to his room and beat and then stabbed her until she stopped. Alyssa Bustamente was 15 when she confessed to luring her 9-year-old neighbor Elizabeth Olten into a nearby forest and killing her in 2009. "I strangled them and slit their throat and stabbed them now they're dead," Bustamante wrote in her diary at the time. "It was ahmazing. As soon as you get over the 'ohmygawd I can't do this' feeling, it's pretty enjoyable. I'm kinda nervous and shaky though right now. Kay, I gotta go to church now...lol." In February, she was sentenced to life in prison.Eric Harris -- who, with his friend Dylan Klebold, killed 13 people and injured 24 others when they opened fire at Columbine High School in Colorado in 1999 -- had several of the hallmarks of being a psychopath. As ABC News points out, he was described as "controlling, manipulative, and sadistic, but very much in touch with reality." "Psychopaths don't feel guilty because they are blind to guilt," Frank Ochberg, a former FBI psychiatrist who led the counseling team after Columbine, told ABC News . And, unlike with psychosis (when people are delusional or out-of-touch with reality), psychopaths know exactly what they're doing -- they just don't care how it affects others.


It's not as if these kids simply lack a moral compass. In "Child of Rage," 6-year-old Beth opens her blue eyes wide and calmly tells her psychiatrist how she'd like to hurt, and even kill, her adoptive parents -- a Baptist preacher and his wife -- and her biological brother. She's calm and conversational as she describes how she has deliberately harmed and killed animals, how she drives pins into her brother and sexually molests him, how she repeatedly slammed his head into a cement floor and only stopped because someone caught her.
Beth suffered extreme physical and sexual abuse and neglect by her biological parents, which experts say could explain her detached, calculating demeanor and her lack of "a sense of conscience." (She now claims that she was "healed" by the time she was 7 or 8, thanks to intensive therapy.) But Michael, in the New York Times Magazine article, seems to have grown up surrounded by love and affection.
So if nurture (or a lack of it) isn't the only way a person becomes a psychopath, how much does nature have to do with it? Some experts say that psychopathy, like other mental illnesses, may have a genetic component; others think that it is a neurological condition all its own, like autism is, though it's not part of the autism spectrum. Though some psychologists believe one can start seeing psychopathic traits as early as age 5, there is not yet a definitive test for children that young.
"You're not born a psychopath but the foundation is there," Robert Hare, a professor emeritus of psychology at the University of British Columbia and author of "Without

[ceejay]

Title should say "scary" but I don't know how to edit on the app.

(But how cool is it that there is an app at all?! And that it works! )

[CheshireGrin]

I find this entire topic fascinating. I've met a few genuine psychopaths through work, but only one child who I'm aware of. I have to say, speaking with them and even just being in the same room with them, is incredibly unnerving. I hate to be so unscientific, but it pretty much just makes your skin crawl.

To answer the OP, I don't know that I could parent a child like this either. (But I'm not really interested in parenting ANY child, so take that as you will.)

I agree that the diagnosis of psychopathy in pediatrics is problematic (and extremely controversial), but I think that can be said of most psych diagnoses in pediatrics. At least anecdotally, I think there are a frighteningly large number of children in our country today who are saddled with psychiatric diagnoses and medications when what they really need is stronger parenting. But that's not really a debate that I'm willing to get into here (especially since I'm heading to bed very shortly), and I certainly don't wish to minimize the issues of children who was genuine mental illness.

[ceejay]

I also don't think there are many facilities and resources for families with children this young with that diagnosis.

Do you remember the case of that girl diagnosed at 6 or 7 with schizophrenia? They think she had hallucinations as a baby. I saw her profiled on a couple of documenteries and Oprah. Her parents were wrecked, just completely and utterly drained. The girl barely slept her whole 7 years because she was so overstimulated by her hallucinations so the family never slept. She was also dangerous but not like the psychopathic kids here. Just to keep her minimally controlled was killing her parents slowly and they were so heartbroken about the whole situation. It was awful to watch. And there were simply no resources for them. They just kept going. I really felt for them.

[Deleted]

there was a really long article in the NYTs this weekend about htis too.

[loislane23]

It is creepy, but it's a real thing. We had a 6 year old psych patient in our ER a few weeks ago. He told us that people were telling him to harm his parents and that he needed to kill all the bad souls. He had look in his eyes that creeped me out. Unfortunately, there are so few inpatient psych facilities for juveniles, especially that young, and parents are very hesitant to medicate their children at that age.

It also makes me wonder how many teenagers have been dealing with things like this for years.

[IIOY]

May 15, 2012 5:39:15 GMT -5 loislane23 said:

and parents are very hesitant to medicate their children at that age.

Is this because the meds have dangerous potential side effects, or is there another reason? It seems to me that a lot of parents are quite anxious to medicate their kids for a variety of questionable reasons so I find it interesting that anyone would be hesitant to medicate for something that would seem to legitimately warrant medication.

[karinothing]

May 15, 2012 5:49:00 GMT -5 IIOY said:

May 15, 2012 5:39:15 GMT -5 loislane23 said:

and parents are very hesitant to medicate their children at that age.

Is this because the meds have dangerous potential side effects, or is there another reason? It seems to me that a lot of parents are quite anxious to medicate their kids for a variety of questionable reasons so I find it interesting that anyone would be hesitant to medicate for something that would seem to legitimately warrant medication.

I think a lot of parents are worried that medicating will "create a stigma" that will follow their kids. Whether this is true or not, I don't really know. Also, from reading at work and talking to my friends that are teachers the medication can be pretty rough on kids. It can make them very very sleepy. Like my friend is a 1st grade teacher and this poor kid in her class can't even go out to recess because his medication makes him so sleepy, he keeps falling asleep in class. IT can be hard to find the right balance.

Stories like this always scare me. I came across one case like this at work. The kid was setting fires, injuring pets, chasing after family members with a knife, and just said some F'd up stuff. I don't think he came from an abusive home, although he did come from a "broken" very very poor one. I still think about him and hope he is okay.

[mcgee]

Hard core anti-psychotic drugs are in a totally different class than Ritalin, IIOY, so I can understand some hesitation.

As far as young children go, the brain is still developing and forming, especially in the very early years, and stress or trauma in that time can cause the brain to basically wire itself wrong. A lot of that can be undone with therapy and careful parenting - I'm dealing with this personally right now - but it's nowhere close to what the parents in this article are dealing with.

I personally haven't dealt with a psychopathic child, but my mother had a potential one - he was in her preschool a few years back, and she had to basically kick him out because he was violent toward other children. Another parent who knew the family and no longer allowed her children to play with this child said that he would fly into rages and punch his mother and little brother with closed fists. This child was four. My mom said he showed no remorse when he hurt other students or teachers, that he'd get a gleam in his eyes when he made other children cry, and that he didn't respond to discipline at all. My mom remains convinced she'll see a news story about him someday when he kills someone. She tried to convince the parents to have the child evaluated, that he needed professional help, but they were in denial over the whole thing.

[mcgee]

May 15, 2012 5:03:39 GMT -5 @septimus said:

there was a really long article in the NYTs this weekend about htis too.

www.nytimes.com/2012/05/13/magazine/can-you-call-a-9-year-old-a-psychopath.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

Reading it now.

[mcgee]

Also, with young children, it can be difficult to even get a psychiatric diagnosis because many therapists are hesitant to slap a label on a child and get locked into a particular treatment plan if they aren't sure that's really the problem. Children with bipolar can and do fly into violent rages, even when on meds, and children with Oppositional Defiant Disorder can have some of the same issues with authority and same "eff you world" attitude that a psychopathic child might have. A child with Reactive Attachment Disorder could also exhibit similar behavior.

As far as traumatic backgrounds go, things like severe neglect, abuse, a history of foster care or life in an orphanage can all be used to explain behavior, but for a young child whose brain is still making important connections, even far less extreme events can cause trauma that affects the child. Even time in the hospital as an infant or toddler can be incredibly traumatic to a child, especially if they have to be strapped down for a painful procedure. So just because there's no abuse in a child's background doesn't mean that child isn't traumatized.

[mcgee]

May 15, 2012 7:09:49 GMT -5 @pennypie said:

May 15, 2012 4:30:23 GMT -5 ceejay said:

I also don't think there are many facilities and resources for families with children this young with that diagnosis.

Do you remember the case of that girl diagnosed at 6 or 7 with schizophrenia? They think she had hallucinations as a baby. I saw her profiled on a couple of documenteries and Oprah. Her parents were wrecked, just completely and utterly drained. The girl barely slept her whole 7 years because she was so overstimulated by her hallucinations so the family never slept. She was also dangerous but not like the psychopathic kids here. Just to keep her minimally controlled was killing her parents slowly and they were so heartbroken about the whole situation. It was awful to watch. And there were simply no resources for them. They just kept going. I really felt for them.

I think you're talking about Jani Schofield. It seems like her parents are still quasi keeping a blog about their story: www.janisjourney.org/

Yep. Jani's family has tried to avoid institutionalizing her because there aren't a lot of facilities available that will take a young child, and they don't feel it would be a good environment for her.

[EloiseWeenie]

I think this is so scary. If I had a child like this, I think I would have to put them in a hospital or facility. As much as I would love them and hope that my love could help them, I would never be able to live with myself if they harmed someone. I'm lucky to have close friends (that have worked with psychopaths/serial killers) that could wake me up from denial and steer me in the right direction with treatment/facilities.

IIOY- I think there are a lot of parents on both sides. Ones that over-medicate because they want an immediate answer/treatment, and those that are in denial that refuse treatment.

[IIOY]

May 15, 2012 7:05:05 GMT -5 mcgee said:

Hard core anti-psychotic drugs are in a totally different class than Ritalin, IIOY, so I can understand some hesitation.

Right, that's what I was getting at with my question.

So then I guess my next question is, given the severity of the symptoms/behavior, is the general feeling that the side effects and potential long-term impact of these drugs outweigh the behavior, which is pretty darn severe? You mention therapy - do a lot of parents think they can work through these issues sans medication?

I intend no snark with my question and am coming from a place of genuine curiosity. I should also add that I totally get the denial aspect. When my son first started exhibiting problems, my husband was incredibly cynical about our doctor's opinion that anything was wrong, even after he started working with a therapist who whole-heartedly agreed that therapy was warranted. In visiting support chat boards, I quickly learned that many parents, usually the father, had this reaction. ETA: Fortunately for us, this was never a question of "to medicate or not to medicate," so we were not forced to cross this bridge.

ETA2: my son's issues are nothing of the nature described in this thread so I don't pretend to understand what these parents are going through.

[stoddenista]

I have worked in Peds, and I have to say that the cases I have seen are definitely clear-cut... no gray area, no "possibly" meets the diagnosis criteria. There are next to no resources available for these kids - meds aren't FDA approved for younger ages, so MD's are having to use them off-label without studies showing that they aren't harmful because there are no alternatives.

[loislane23]

May 15, 2012 6:59:19 GMT -5 karinothing said:

May 15, 2012 5:49:00 GMT -5 IIOY said:

Is this because the meds have dangerous potential side effects, or is there another reason? It seems to me that a lot of parents are quite anxious to medicate their kids for a variety of questionable reasons so I find it interesting that anyone would be hesitant to medicate for something that would seem to legitimately warrant medication.

I think a lot of parents are worried that medicating will "create a stigma" that will follow their kids. Whether this is true or not, I don't really know. Also, from reading at work and talking to my friends that are teachers the medication can be pretty rough on kids. It can make them very very sleepy. Like my friend is a 1st grade teacher and this poor kid in her class can't even go out to recess because his medication makes him so sleepy, he keeps falling asleep in class. IT can be hard to find the right balance.

Stories like this always scare me. I came across one case like this at work. The kid was setting fires, injuring pets, chasing after family members with a knife, and just said some F'd up stuff. I don't think he came from an abusive home, although he did come from a "broken" very very poor one. I still think about him and hope he is okay.

Potential side effects is a big one, especially lack of appetite and fatigue. But for many parents (and this is purely antecdotes of patients I see) they are afraid of how it'll look. If they don't medicate, they can sweep it under the rug and not face it. While this is far worse for the child, who needs that long term medication to stabilize, it allows the parents to stay in denial, especially when they often look to blame the other parent or themselves for the bahavior of the child.

[loislane23]

May 15, 2012 7:20:17 GMT -5 chilerellanos said:

It's not that easy to just put them in a hospital. The longest my daughter has been in impatient is for 7 days. As far as being placed in a group home or something, they don't take insurance...so, you're screwed unless they're a ward of the state.

This is where we see a lot of our patients, especially young teenage boys. There is a facility in town that is a permanent group home for troubled young men. They are all wards of the state and most parents sign the children over just so they can get help. Without doing so, they can't get permanent placement and they can't afford it.

[EloiseWeenie]

May 15, 2012 7:43:53 GMT -5 chilerellanos said:

May 15, 2012 7:40:56 GMT -5 loislane23 said:

This is where we see a lot of our patients, especially young teenage boys. There is a facility in town that is a permanent group home for troubled young men. They are all wards of the state and most parents sign the children over just so they can get help. Without doing so, they can't get permanent placement and they can't afford it.

And making my daughter a ward of the state is something my husband and I are looking into. There are NO good options!!

You wouldn't tell a mother of a diabetic that maybe she can turn her child over to the state to get the help they need.

I'm sorry you're going through this. I have no idea what the options are for cases like this. You are a great parent for doing what you can to get your daughter help.

[mcgee]

May 15, 2012 7:20:01 GMT -5 IIOY said:

May 15, 2012 7:05:05 GMT -5 mcgee said:

Hard core anti-psychotic drugs are in a totally different class than Ritalin, IIOY, so I can understand some hesitation.

Right, that's what I was getting at with my question.

So then I guess my next question is, given the severity of the symptoms/behavior, is the general feeling that the side effects and potential long-term impact of these drugs outweigh the behavior, which is pretty darn severe? You mention therapy - do a lot of parents think they can work through these issues sans medication?

I intend no snark with my question and am coming from a place of genuine curiosity. I should also add that I totally get the denial aspect. When my son first started exhibiting problems, my husband was incredibly cynical about our doctor's opinion that anything was wrong, even after he started working with a therapist who whole-heartedly agreed that therapy was warranted. In visiting support chat boards, I quickly learned that many parents, usually the father, had this reaction. ETA: Fortunately for us, this was never a question of "to medicate or not to medicate," so we were not forced to cross this bridge.

I guess it depends on the issues. We're working through our child's issues right now with therapy and without medication, but we're open to it if the therapist thinks it's needed. I think there's a train of thought that therapy might be able to "fix" the child, whereas medication for a mental health issue is just going to mask the symptoms and make it manageable.

We held off on therapy until a few months ago because we kept hoping it would get better, that she'd grow out of some of the issues we were dealing with (which are nowhere near the severity mentioned in either article). We finally got to a point where her occupational therapist, her doctor, my husband and I all agreed that we needed additional help. She's almost six.

The NYT article was saying that a diagnosis of psychopathy in a child is "ruinous" - there is no support for the family in the same way they'd have support if we were talking about autism, and historically, psychopathy has been considered untreatable. So do you really want to slap that label on a kid? I definitely understand the hesitation to do so.

[ceejay]

Yes, that was Jani I was referring to. Her parents were just amazing, like I said.

IIOY- I know in Jani's case they said a lot of the drugs, even tge stronger ones, had little to know effect on her. Her dad swallowed a half a pill once and gave her a whole. It knocked him out, but did nothing for her.

And yes, there is the prob of their being no FDA approval on these meds.

My heart just goes out because there are no resources. There is no help. You are just on your own. And god forbid, you're a single parent and have other kids.

All this talk about highly abusive households also makes me think about all the kids growing up in really violent, war torn areas and how in situations like that true mental health services often seem to come in much later, if ever, because there is simply so much other stuff going on. And the effects that has on generations of kids as they get older.

[copzgirl1171]

Heartbreaking.

[loislane23]

May 15, 2012 7:43:53 GMT -5 chilerellanos said:

May 15, 2012 7:40:56 GMT -5 loislane23 said:

This is where we see a lot of our patients, especially young teenage boys. There is a facility in town that is a permanent group home for troubled young men. They are all wards of the state and most parents sign the children over just so they can get help. Without doing so, they can't get permanent placement and they can't afford it.

And making my daughter a ward of the state is something my husband and I are looking into. There are NO good options!!

You wouldn't tell a mother of a diabetic that maybe she can turn her child over to the state to get the help they need.

I am so sorry you have to go through that. Just make whatever decision is best for you, your daughter, and your family. That's all you can do. (hugs)

[earlgreyhot]

I read the nytimes article this weekend and was chilled. I really feel for thr mother who not only has the task of managing her older son but protecting her younger sons as well as her self, if not physically emotionally.

It was mentioned in the nyt piece that parents are often caught in a catch 22 in that these kids push their parents always while at the same time needing more affection. Though really there's no conclusive evidence so really parents are left struggling.

**edited for iposting errors.

[One Girl In All The World]

May 15, 2012 9:44:39 GMT -5 earlgreyhot said:

I read the nytimes article this weekend and was chilled. I really feel for thr mother who not only has the task of managing her older son but protecting her younger sons as well as he self, if not physically emotionally.

It was mentioned in the nyt peice that parents are often caught in a catch 22 in that these kids push their parents always while at the same time needing more affection. Though really there's no conclusive evidence so really parentage left struggling.

The article really broke my heart and I won't lie I would be terrified for my other children. What an awful situation all around.

Sent from my DROIDX using ProBoards

[NitaX]

Between reading this and watching Criminal Minds, I think I might need to go sit in a corner and cry.

[ttt]

This is horrifying. I don't know which scares me more - the thought of my child being alone with a child like this, or the thought of my child *being* like this.

[GailGoldie]

We know a family in town with a child like this. He was adopted and they now think his mother did drugs or something while pg. His parents are afraid if him and now he is HUGE and stays at a facility for young adults like him. It is the only way they can deal. So sad. I can not imagine that kind of stress daily with my child.

[wrathofkuus]

I don't even know that there's a real solution for this other than euthanizing the kids. We talked about this once on TIP.

[KateAggie]

I know a child like this, and she scares the shit out of me. She got in trouble the first week of kindergarten for drawing a picture of her beating another kid. She put it in the other kids' cubby. She also laughed when she trapped M between a motorized kid car and the wall of a house. M had fallen to the ground, and she tried to pin her with the car. M was screaming bloody murder and she sat there revving the car up, smiling and giggling. She did little cruel things during our entire visit (example: taking toys only once she saw that M was enjoying them--and she didn't take them to play, she instead would tell M "we're not playing with that anymore," and then sit there and smile when M would cry.)

Her parents think she's just mischievous and spirited. I'd literally be afraid to spend the night in the same house with the kid. My mom feels the same way. This kid is family--and was a much wanted and unexpected surprise. I seriously hate feeling this way about a child. But she is truly frightening. She's also smart and pretty, and I'm scared what that combo will allow her to do, and she will do something. I have no doubt.

[laurenpetro]

both DH and i have varying degrees of schitzophrenia in our families and this scares the shit out of me.
that said, i'd much rather have my child be a schitzophrenic than a psychopath.