American Women Can't BF b/c We're All Too Fat

[arch01]

The only thing I have to say here is that BMI is a crock of shit.

Pretty sure my slightly elevated BMI (depending on the day varies from normal to overweight) had nothing to do with my insufficient glandular tissue, my son's lip tie and his inability to effectively transfer milk.

[ringstrue]

I already feel my letdown reflex like 10 times a day. WHAT DOES IT MEAN?!

[Wrath0fKuus]

I am highly suspicious of yet another "you're substandard in everydamnthing because you're fat" study. Not that I doubt the correlation, per se, but the societal vilifying of fatness plus the extremely high likelihood that a common factor is causing both the fatness and lactation problems makes me frown and think about the extent to which existing ideas shape the hypotheses that scientists test and the conclusions they draw.

[lyssbobiss, Command, B613]

That's just silly. I didn't breastfeed because I could just use one fat hand to jam a bottle in my son's mouth while I jammed a snickers bar in my mouth with my other fat hand.

[KateAggie]

May 14, 2014 14:27:21 GMT -5 lyssbobiss, Command, B613 said:

That's just silly. I didn't breastfeed because I could just use one fat hand to jam a bottle in my son's mouth while I jammed a snickers bar in my mouth with my other fat hand.

My selfishness hampered my BFing. Subpar, and not fat. Nailed it.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

[debatethis]

May 14, 2014 14:19:46 GMT -5 arch01 said:

The only thing I have to say here is that BMI is a crock of shit.

Pretty sure my slightly elevated BMI (depending on the day varies from normal to overweight) had nothing to do with my insufficient glandular tissue, my son's lip tie and his inability to effectively transfer milk.

Maybe, maybe not for your particular situation,  but PCOS and IGT are linked and PCOS is most common in people who are overweight.

[PinkSquirrel]

I thought gestational diabetes wasn't as closely tied to obesity, right?

[arch01]

May 14, 2014 14:47:38 GMT -5 debatethis said:

May 14, 2014 14:19:46 GMT -5 arch01 said:

The only thing I have to say here is that BMI is a crock of shit.

Pretty sure my slightly elevated BMI (depending on the day varies from normal to overweight) had nothing to do with my insufficient glandular tissue, my son's lip tie and his inability to effectively transfer milk.

Maybe, maybe not for your particular situation,  but PCOS and IGT are linked and PCOS is most common in people who are overweight.

PCOS is also linked to over-supply. IMO it's honestly a crapshoot when trying to figure it out. With one exception, everyone I know of that has PCOS is not overweight but if they did BF, they had a severe oversupply. Apparently my friends like to attempt to disprove stuff.

[kkfeb04]

I breastfed to a year with #2, EP'd with #1 for 9 months (freezer stash got us to a year). I'm fat and had an oversupply both times. I also had gestational diabetes twice because I have PCOS and my body doesn't understand hormones.

[starlily]

Anecdote: I had gestational diabetes, took Metformin while I had it because diet and exercise weren't enough to control fasting numbers, and still had low milk supply.

ETA: I have gestational diabetes again with this pregnancy, although so far I've been able to control it with just diet and exercise. I'm curious to see if there might be a different outcome re: milk supply. 

Heh. I'm a clinical trial all wrapped up into one person.

[kkfeb04]

May 14, 2014 14:57:58 GMT -5 arch01 said:

May 14, 2014 14:47:38 GMT -5 debatethis said:

Maybe, maybe not for your particular situation,  but PCOS and IGT are linked and PCOS is most common in people who are overweight.

PCOS is also linked to over-supply. IMO it's honestly a crapshoot when trying to figure it out. With one exception, everyone I know of that has PCOS is not overweight but if they did BF, they had a severe oversupply. Apparently my friends like to attempt to disprove stuff.

I had mastitis twice in the first month I went back to work because of my damn oversupply.  For several months when I was EPing I was producing 120 oz a day. That was with me pumping every 5 hours. 

[starlily]

May 14, 2014 14:48:59 GMT -5 PinkSquirrel said:

I thought gestational diabetes wasn't as closely tied to obesity, right?

Obesity is one of the identified risk factors along with:

- age (30+)
- ethnicity (Asian, Hispanic, or AA)
- a family history of Type 2 diabetes
- having previously given birth to a 9+ lb baby
- having had gestational diabetes in a prior pregnancy

[mominatrix]

anecdotes!

IME, thin women have as many problems breastfeeding as fatties do.


Or, maybe my study is off because thin women seek out help, while fatties just lay around eating.

[Velar Fricative]

Don't many women experience supply dips when they're not eating enough? I just love that message - "Eat a lot so you have milk, but my god don't eat too much you fattie!!!!"

[arch01]

May 14, 2014 15:02:38 GMT -5 kkfeb04 said:

May 14, 2014 14:57:58 GMT -5 arch01 said:

PCOS is also linked to over-supply. IMO it's honestly a crapshoot when trying to figure it out. With one exception, everyone I know of that has PCOS is not overweight but if they did BF, they had a severe oversupply. Apparently my friends like to attempt to disprove stuff.

I had mastitis twice in the first month I went back to work because of my damn oversupply.  For several months when I was EPing I was producing 120 oz a day. That was with me pumping every 5 hours. 

My low supply is jealous but my boobs are saying holy shit, ouch. Yowza. 

[pugz]

I did not have GD but do have PCOS and my supply was terrible.

[statlerwaldorf]

I have PCOS and am overweight. I struggled a lot with low supply. I didn't have gestational diabetes with that pregnancy, but I have it now.

[bugandbibs]

I'm glad actual research is being done. Too often breast feeding issues are chalked up to "you didn't try hard enough".

[Velar Fricative]

May 14, 2014 15:24:25 GMT -5 bugandbibs said:

I'm glad actual research is being done. Too often breast feeding issues are chalked up to "you didn't try hard enough".

And I think it helps dispute the general belief out that there very very few women don't make enough milk. Instead of just telling a frustrated new mother that there's something else going on and her baby is surely getting enough milk, studies like this help to diagnose supply issues and hopefully result in treatments that work.

[Deleted]

May 14, 2014 14:48:59 GMT -5 PinkSquirrel said:

I thought gestational diabetes wasn't as closely tied to obesity, right?

Being overweight before getting pregnant is one of the risk factors for developing gestational diabetes. 

[MrsAxilla]

May 14, 2014 15:28:50 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

May 14, 2014 15:24:25 GMT -5 bugandbibs said:

I'm glad actual research is being done. Too often breast feeding issues are chalked up to "you didn't try hard enough".

And I think it helps dispute the general belief out that there very very few women don't make enough milk. Instead of just telling a frustrated new mother that there's something else going on and her baby is surely getting enough milk, studies like this help to diagnose supply issues and hopefully result in treatments that work.

I wonder about this a lot.  Evolutionarily speaking, breastfeeding issues should be rare.  Inability to nurse (either mother or child) is pretty devastating on your personal ability to survive.  And yet I know from too many years in TN that issues are very common. I would assume that if it were a big problem in the past, we'd know about it, right?  We know all about the perils of childbirth before modern medicine, but I don't recall ever hearing that ability to nurse was a significant concern.  So what's going on?  Is something in our environment or lifestyle that's causing it?  

[pugz]

I wish metformin did not have such horrible side effects. I could not even leave the house while on it

[starlily]

May 14, 2014 16:10:15 GMT -5 pugz said:

I wish metformin did not have such horrible side effects. I could not even leave the house while on it

I didn't have the nasty side effects, but it did jack shit as far as my supply (which was minimal), which is why I'm completely "meh" about this study.

[MrsAxilla]

May 14, 2014 16:11:39 GMT -5 @domerjen said:

May 14, 2014 15:56:06 GMT -5 MrsAxilla said:

I wonder about this a lot.  Evolutionarily speaking, breastfeeding issues should be rare.  Inability to nurse (either mother or child) is pretty devastating on your personal ability to survive.  And yet I know from too many years in TN that issues are very common. I would assume that if it were a big problem in the past, we'd know about it, right?  We know all about the perils of childbirth before modern medicine, but I don't recall ever hearing that ability to nurse was a significant concern.  So what's going on?  Is something in our environment or lifestyle that's causing it?  

Well, people lived in large familial groups. I'm sure sisters, cousins, etc... Could nurse a baby if someone couldn't. Or, the woman's children all died and those genes weren't passed on.

Also, I think bf'ing and ability to conceive are probably linked. 100 years ago someone like me just couldn't have babies bc there weren't hormone treatments to help, genes weren't passed on. Only the strong survive. Darwin!

That's what I mean.  Inability to nurse (or conceive) meant your genes weren't passed on.  Shouldn't that have been selected out a long time ago?  Although I suppose we have LOTS of historical evidence that infertility/inability to carry to term was a problem.  Do we have similar evidence about inability to nurse?  Even anecdotally?  

[2curlydogs]

May 14, 2014 15:56:06 GMT -5 MrsAxilla said:

May 14, 2014 15:28:50 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

And I think it helps dispute the general belief out that there very very few women don't make enough milk. Instead of just telling a frustrated new mother that there's something else going on and her baby is surely getting enough milk, studies like this help to diagnose supply issues and hopefully result in treatments that work.

I wonder about this a lot.  Evolutionarily speaking, breastfeeding issues should be rare.  Inability to nurse (either mother or child) is pretty devastating on your personal ability to survive.  And yet I know from too many years in TN that issues are very common. I would assume that if it were a big problem in the past, we'd know about it, right?  We know all about the perils of childbirth before modern medicine, but I don't recall ever hearing that ability to nurse was a significant concern.  So what's going on?  Is something in our environment or lifestyle that's causing it?  

Well, when you think about it, there's probably a few things going on:

a) many women of a certain socioeconomic status didn't breastfeed - they employed wet nurses.

b) we are, as a generation, on the receiving end of an epic education campaign on the benefits of breastfeeding. 

c) previous generations (many, if not most, of our moms included) did not breastfeed for a variety of reasons (were taught that formula was actually better, more healthy, etc.)

d) previous generations did not TALK about this sort of thing. I didn't know until just recently that my mom never breastfed any of us because she had problems doing so. Same with my sister. I'm the only one in my family who has been able to successfully and exclusively nurse for more than a few months.

e) previous generations did not have the support network - lactation consultants in the hospital, internet message boards, etc. - that we do so it was largely swept under the rug.

f) other methods beyond formula existed to support newborn feeding - goats milk, etc.

g) Previous generations weren't so strung out about when to start solids. Hence the old cereal in the bottle at 2 months so they sleep better suggestion more than a few of us have gotten, I'm sure.

[MrsAxilla]

May 14, 2014 16:12:12 GMT -5 @majorwife said:

May 14, 2014 16:10:15 GMT -5 pugz said:

I wish metformin did not have such horrible side effects. I could not even leave the house while on it

so im not the only one that needs two pants people when on it?

Mrs.A - you forget about the abundance of wet nurses. Just a few women lactating for years could feed several babies

I didn't forget.  I just...I don't know how to articulate this, so I'm botching it.  We know that women died in childbirth all.the.time.  It was a real hazard to have children.  But I don't recall ever hearing that IF you survived childbirth, you then had to worry about whether or not you could nurse.  You'd think if that was a common issue, it would be a plot line in at least one Phillipa Gregory novel.

[mominatrix]

part of it, as well, is that EVERYTHING impacts nursing. One of the biggest culprits in bashing ones' milk supply is stress.

so... we have a generation of women who are convinced that they both have to breastfeed AND return to work (so PUMP, which messes with supply for most people, too)... and keep perfectly clean houses, and run the older kid to a bajillion activities and be a sex kitten.



there's a crapton more expected of us than in generations before.




Women in countries with really really good maternity leave laws... they don't have the lactation problems American women have.



Just sayin'.



(and as much as overweight might be an issue, I'd guess that a bigger part of that issue is that overweight = more likely poor/poorer = more stress of all kinds = breastfeeding problems)

[Velar Fricative]

mominatrix - Where did you read that lactation problems are not as common outside of the US? I can believe it based on what you said, just curious to find stats.

[mominatrix]

May 14, 2014 16:31:39 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

mominatrix - Where did you read that lactation problems are not as common outside of the US? I can believe it based on what you said, just curious to find stats.

there's a lot of information on nursing outcomes in countries with long maternity leave policies, yet I can't seem to lay my hands on it.



here's a really good resource, though:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK52688/

here's the text, but go to the link for links to citations:

Employment and Child Care



Employed mothers typically find that returning to work is a significant barrier to breastfeeding. Women often face inflexibility in their work hours and locations and a lack of privacy for breastfeeding or expressing milk, have no place to store expressed breast milk, are unable to find child care facilities at or near the workplace, face fears over job insecurity, and have limited maternity leave benefits.13,101,116,129–131 In 2009, the Society for Human Resource Management reported that only 25 percent of companies surveyed had lactation programs or made special accommodations for breastfeeding.132 Small businesses (fewer than 100 employees) are the least likely to have lactation programs, and whether the workplace is large or small, infants are generally not allowed to be there.132 Many mothers encounter pressure from coworkers and supervisors not to take breaks to express breast milk, and existing breaks often do not allow sufficient time for expression.133 When mothers who do not have a private office at work do not have a place to breastfeed or express breast milk, they may resort to using the restroom for these purposes, an approach that is unhygienic and associated with premature weaning.134–137



Lack of maternity leave can also be a significant barrier to breastfeeding. Studies show that women intending to return to work within a year after childbirth are less likely to initiate breastfeeding, and mothers who work full-time tend to breastfeed for shorter durations than do part-time or unemployed mothers.129,138 Women with longer maternity leaves are more likely to combine breastfeeding and employment.139 In a survey of 712 mothers, each week of maternity leave increased the duration of breastfeeding by almost one-half week.140 Jobs that have less flexibility and require long separations of mother and baby further complicate breastfeeding.131 Hourly wage workers face different challenges than salaried workers, as the former typically have less control over their schedules, and their pay may be reduced if they take breaks to express breast milk.141

[Velar Fricative]

Thanks mominatrix. I hate searching for research on my phone but I will dig more stuff up when I can.