Anyone want to talk strategy for the 1/2 and marathon?

[thom]

I'm stuck in the analysis stage after my spring races. Ack. Mostly for the marathon, but I'm also thinking about the 1/2.

Background: overall, my training was higher mileage for me, with multiple 30+ mpw and peak week at 47. I did my solo 20 miler 6 weeks from marathon day. (Not ideal; I know.) My 2nd planned 20 mile turned into 14.5 because of a sore right leg. I nursed this along for a few weeks, & it was no big deal by race day. I know I didn't run as many miles as a lot of you do for marathons, but for me it was definitely an increase. So...

For the half marathon, what has led to your best race and PR? I usually aim for even splits over this distance, but often I have a slight positive split. What do you prefer for a longest run?

For the marathon, I looked back and I've now run 2 marathons with about a 7 minute positive split. Last spring it was a 1:59 and 2:06. This spring, a 1:58 and 2:05.

Both races warmed up throughout the day. The first marathon was more hilly while this spring was flat. So, I gather that I am just starting out too fast, or my goal was too ambitious.

This spring, I have to wonder if I'd run a 2:00-2:01 first half if I would have had enough energy left to run sub-1:59 the second half??

I hope this doesn't come off as doom & gloom or whiny. I'm already thinking ahead to many other things (running & non-running) this summer, but I want to try and learn from my past races.

I'm also debating whether I'm in good enough shape to still attempt a PR half or marathon in early summer or if I really need another training cycle to get there.

Thoughts? Any of your own experiences to share?

[runaways]

I'll share. My current half PR (1:48:xx) was set 3 weeks after my current marathon PR, so I didn't really do much specific training for it. I believe strongly in negative splits, so I always start slower. In that race and the half I did a couple months before that got me under 1:50, I think my starting pace was about 8:30 for the first mile or two and then I just kept the focus on slowly and steadily bringing it down.

As far as the marathon, I peaked at 54 I believe for my last one, and that's what it took to get me under 4:00. That said, I jumped from 4:23 to 3:51. I do know that my average weekly mileage including taper and a couple recovery weeks at the beginning of the second cycle went from 28 to 38, which I think is really what made the difference more than the higher peak. I spent a lot of weeks in the mid to high 40s. I also ran negative splits in that race - I think my first recorded split was 9:10 or so and the last was 8:03.

Hope that helps, happy to answer any questions.

[thom]

runaways - thanks for sharing. I appreciate it when people are willing to give their race details. Even though we're all different, I think it can still help others learn.

It sounds like more miles is really the main thing I'm lacking. You've probably shared this before, but what plan were you using for your PR marathon? Or did you create your own?

[gt7301b]

1) I'd give a half a try and see if you can bang outa half PR. I really like doing two halves in a half training cycle, I realize this doesn't help you right now. I usually use the first as a "training run" that I run all out, but don't taper for. I also use that as my longest week in my training cycle. I did this twice last year and dropped from a 1:58 half to 1:49 half.

2) For what it is worth, I suck at negative splits. They are great in theory, but it just doesn't work well for me. I never run faster in the second half, just slower in the first half. (I'm speaking more about shorter races cause I've only run one marathon) That being said it certainly doesn't hurt to try something new.

3) I peaked at 32 this half cycle and am planning to peak around 45-50 for MCM. I am adapting Pfitz's 18/55 plan to make it work with my schedule. Basically I'm cutting off 5 miles a week and may drop down to two 20's cause we will be in Europe in August.

[cinco]

I generally aim for even splits (or even effort in a hilly race), but that doesn't mean I get them My best half times are negative splits, but that is because I went out at my goal pace and then had some extra adrenaline and oof to finish faster than my goal. Those are the best, but again it's not always in me. My goal half this Spring was insanely windy and I felt like I was running as fast as I can and going backwards. Hah.

My best marathons tend to be close to even split. I started out conservatively based on my training for Boston, and it still didn't matter. Some days things just go wrong. I have some theories based on my running form and a few things out of my control, but I don't blame my pacing.

I thought about a redemption marathon, but my heart wasn't really in it and the potential for a hot day is much higher in May and June. I love running in the heat, but I kind of suck it, lol.

[thom]

gt7301b - I hear you loud and clear on point 2! I want to believe in negative splits, and back in my first marathon I got close, running almost perfectly even splits because I did start so slow.

I think my problem is that if I have too much left at the end I feel like I should have run harder all the way through. (This is more true for 10K - half marathon.) During my marathon last weekend I really thought I could hit even splits up until about mile 23 when things just tanked. I guess I need to keep practicing.

[runaways]

My PR marathon was 14 weeks after the 4:23, so I jumped into the Pftiz 12/55 but ended up easing back on it a bit. To be fair, I'm sure ramping up for the first marathon and then being able to build on that for the second helped a ton.

[thom]

May 16, 2014 10:07:23 GMT -5 cinco said:

I thought about a redemption marathon, but my heart wasn't really in it and the potential for a hot day is much higher in May and June. I love running in the heat, but I kind of suck it, lol.

cinco, I hear you on this! My only real possibility for redemption is Grandma's - which is usually cool but not always. It's also a long drive and crazy logistics being much bigger than I'm used to. And $$ to sign up now.

Most of the 1/2's in my area are over for the spring, but I feel like that's a better option if I can find one. I think I could still feel good about a hard effort in the heat for 13.1, but if I go for 26.2 again this soon and it's a bust I know I won't take it well.

[breezy8407]

I can't speak to the full, but I can share my most recent 1/2 training.

I followed Hal Higdon's 1/2 intermediate plan almost to a T. What changed was the last long run and a few of the longer tempo runs had to be pared down. I had planned to do 12 a week before the race, but family and weather turned it into a 6 mile treadmill run. I was bummed, but after consulting a few other 1/2 plans, I saw that it might not be a huge deal. I did my goal pace runs at 8:00 min mile pace or less knowing that my goal was for more like an 8:20 pace.

What I've learned for racing is to start slow. This past race I started too slow - at 8:30. The rest of my miles were consistently right around 8:00-8:10. I had to work really hard for the last 3 to maintain that, but prior to that they felt "good". I think starting slow is the key for me, but what that number is I am not sure. In my 2011 1/2's I started out sub 8 for the first few miles, but burned out at the end.

I've been really slacking the past two weeks, but debated on signing up for another 1/2 just for fun, but the only one coming up is the Mpls marathon. There's also the Red White and Boom, but we always are out of town for the 4th. There's a few metro 1/2s in August, but I do not to well in the humidity, so I will probably wait until fall.

[runaways]

I think with negative splits there is a fine line between holding back too much and being able to perfectly maximize the second half. For me, the key is to slowly and continually bring down my pace rather than doing the first half at one pace, crossing the halfway point, and then speeding up (or something equally sudden).

I also suspect that they don't work for some people. I have always naturally run negative splits. I remember going running with now-DH in college and he'd complain at the start that it was too slow and hurt his knees, but at the end he'd be tired and I'd be booking.

[thom]

May 16, 2014 11:05:36 GMT -5 runaways said:

My PR marathon was 14 weeks after the 4:23, so I jumped into the Pftiz 12/55 but ended up easing back on it a bit. To be fair, I'm sure ramping up for the first marathon and then being able to build on that for the second helped a ton.

This is another good point. All my marathons have been about a year apart or more.

breezy8407 - there just aren't a lot of area 1/2's left this spring, and summer can get so hot. I enjoyed Minneapolis a lot last year, but this year we have a wedding that weekend so I don't think I can swing it. The half course is really nice. The course got less exciting the 2nd half. Or maybe that was just me getting more tired.