Even if you are guilty, we all know that the sentence you are given can vary based on the presence of a lawyer. So if you're charging, even via the back door, you are basically saying it's okay to give the poor a harsher sentence. If they want a more fair justice system, or even just a less unfair justice system, than they have to be willing to be saddled with a fee that grows over time when they can't pay it.
In most jurisdictions, if one is found not guilty or charges dismissed, they don't have to pay the fee, is that true? On a different note, I know that in my state, the courts aren't supposed to order any kind of fees, costs or restitution unless they evaluate the defendants ability to pay.
Possibly, but if the defendant is required to wear a tether, that they have to pay for, and get a land line installed, that they have to pay for, those costs are NOT reimbursed.
"Not gonna lie; I kind of keep expecting you to post one day that you threw down on someone who clearly had no idea that today was NOT THEIR DAY." ~dontcallmeshirley
Yeah, it is so great when taxpayers pay to send an innocent person to prison because they couldn't afford a lawyer to represent them. Do you have any idea how many people are falsely accused? I assure you, the amount of money we spend providing poor people with criminal lawyers is a fucking bargain compared to the costs we'd pay imprisoning every innocent black man too poor for a lawyer accused of a crime. But hey, fuck 'em, amiright?
You're just pointing out other flaws in our justice system and not so much regarding any fees. Think about it the other way around, someone who has truly committed a crime (confession, evidence, etc), should they pay something then? The issue is our justice system views guilty as guilty- there is no difference. That's where your issue truly lies.
Any other discussion regarding someone who can't afford a lawyers fees is more relative to reform of the legal system- not that someone shouldn't pay/reimburse. If you're not convicted, you shouldn't have to pay. If you can't pay upfront, maybe have a loan program or community service. There needs to be other ways then just a blanket "no fee's" statements.
but you still do. You will still be responsible for the court appointed attorney fees.
"Not gonna lie; I kind of keep expecting you to post one day that you threw down on someone who clearly had no idea that today was NOT THEIR DAY." ~dontcallmeshirley
In most jurisdictions, if one is found not guilty or charges dismissed, they don't have to pay the fee, is that true? On a different note, I know that in my state, the courts aren't supposed to order any kind of fees, costs or restitution unless they evaluate the defendants ability to pay.
Possibly, but if the defendant is required to wear a tether, that they have to pay for, and get a land line installed, that they have to pay for, those costs are NOT reimbursed.
And you tell me when it's easy to call up AT&T and tell them you don't want phone service any more. Many of these utilities are doing contracts now.
Possibly, but if the defendant is required to wear a tether, that they have to pay for, and get a land line installed, that they have to pay for, those costs are NOT reimbursed.
And you tell me when it's easy to call up AT&T and tell them you don't want phone service any more. Many of these utilities are doing contracts now.
And trust, you do NOT go home until that line is installed. You are languishing in jail until you can get that installed.
"Not gonna lie; I kind of keep expecting you to post one day that you threw down on someone who clearly had no idea that today was NOT THEIR DAY." ~dontcallmeshirley
Yeah, it is so great when taxpayers pay to send an innocent person to prison because they couldn't afford a lawyer to represent them. Do you have any idea how many people are falsely accused? I assure you, the amount of money we spend providing poor people with criminal lawyers is a fucking bargain compared to the costs we'd pay imprisoning every innocent black man too poor for a lawyer accused of a crime. But hey, fuck 'em, amiright?
You're just pointing out other flaws in our justice system and not so much regarding any fees. Think about it the other way around, someone who has truly committed a crime (confession, evidence, etc), should they pay something then? The issue is our justice system views guilty as guilty- there is no difference. That's where your issue truly lies.
Any other discussion regarding someone who can't afford a lawyers fees is more relative to reform of the legal system- not that someone shouldn't pay/reimburse. If you're not convicted, you shouldn't have to pay. If you can't pay upfront, maybe have a loan program or community service. There needs to be other ways then just a blanket "no fee's" statements.
First, contrary to what you say, there are consequences to committing crimes. It's called a prison sentence. A free public defender isn't exactly like handing someone cookies and milk, and teaching them that they can break the rules.
Second, the reason we provide free legal advice to the poor is as much for them as it is for society. The reason the right to an attorney is memorialized in our constitution is because criminal defense attorneys are an essential part of a working judicial system and a working democracy. They are a check against government overreach. We as a society should want them to ensure that the poor are not wrongfully accused, so that the government cannot just round up people who do not have a fighting chance in the name of security theater, and so that those who may have committed crimes get a fair trial and a fair sentence.
You start putting more and more barriers or disincentives in place to make it difficult to get a lawyer, and that system starts to erode. We are seeing that now. We will pay the price for it. If prosecutors think that people won't pay the fee for a lawyer, they will cut corners and they will push for longer, more expensive sentences than necessary to serve justice. That's a cost we all bear.
And you tell me when it's easy to call up AT&T and tell them you don't want phone service any more. Many of these utilities are doing contracts now.
And trust, you do NOT go home until that line is installed. You are languishing in jail until you can get that installed.
I'm sure at&t pushes those requests to the front of the line. They don't run credit checks. They don't make sure you've paid that old bill you split with your old roommate who then ran out on his half. And they don't require any sort of documentation, someone to be home during installation, etc.
From the courts perspective, everyone can pay something. But like you mentioned, it should be on a sliding scale. I believe everyone can pay something. I don't believe that we should have a justice system with no consequences.
Knowing that hiring an actual attorney for a 5k retainer, a $600 fee for one doesn't seem so extraordinary to me.
So here's a question then, if someone receives a speeding ticket, should someone who has a lower income pay a different price?
Well of course $600 is preferable to a 5k retainer but that's doesn't mean someone has $600, especially if that $600 is going to balloon to $800 or more because he can't pay in full.
I mean that's a serious logic fail, that something is affordable merely because there is a more expensive alternative.
And we don't have a justice system with no consequences. We have a justice system that charges you three times or more for one crime. Jail time, fines, and then back door court fees.
A speeding ticket isn't the same thing because generally speaking, the fees are reasonable, clearly posted, and you are given time to pay them that doesn't come with interest.
$600 is still a lot. I didn't say it wasn't. In comparisons to what an "average" waged person would pay, the PD is only 15% of that. So that makes since. If a worker who makes minimum wage ($7+ an hour), doesn't qualify for a PD, someone whomdoesnt have a job pays a comparable rate ($600 is roughly 1/8 of 5k). Its not perfect but I can see how it's relative. $600 over a payback of 5 years could be manageable. Like I've state before, it's more about how to reform payment of fee's not that they shouldn't be valid.
You're sentenced can be in different areas but it's all 1 conviction. Someone can be charged even more for a crime including community servicer send probation. It's all part of the package though. Maybe we should leave it up to the criminal if they'd rather do 20 years in jail or 10 years+2k and 5 years probation.
Driving fee's fees are just as visible as what sentences are. In fact, court fee's are too. They can all be accessed similarly.
And trust, you do NOT go home until that line is installed. You are languishing in jail until you can get that installed.
I'm sure at&t pushes those requests to the front of the line. They don't run credit checks. They don't make sure you've paid that old bill you split with your old roommate who then ran out on his half. And they don't require any sort of documentation, someone to be home during installation, etc.
Are you sure about that? I don't know about the other ones, but I'm pretty sure someone has to be there for the install. This is just based on my experience with the judge. I'm not sure it was AT&T, though. I don't know if it had to be specific provider, you just had to have a land line to activate the tether.
"Not gonna lie; I kind of keep expecting you to post one day that you threw down on someone who clearly had no idea that today was NOT THEIR DAY." ~dontcallmeshirley
Well of course $600 is preferable to a 5k retainer but that's doesn't mean someone has $600, especially if that $600 is going to balloon to $800 or more because he can't pay in full.
I mean that's a serious logic fail, that something is affordable merely because there is a more expensive alternative.
And we don't have a justice system with no consequences. We have a justice system that charges you three times or more for one crime. Jail time, fines, and then back door court fees.
A speeding ticket isn't the same thing because generally speaking, the fees are reasonable, clearly posted, and you are given time to pay them that doesn't come with interest.
$600 is still a lot. I didn't say it wasn't. In comparisons to what an "average" waged person would pay, the PD is only 15% of that. So that makes since. If a worker who makes minimum wage ($7+ an hour), doesn't qualify for a PD, someone whomdoesnt have a job pays a comparable rate ($600 is roughly 1/8 of 5k). Its not perfect but I can see how it's relative. $600 over a payback of 5 years could be manageable. Like I've state before, it's more about how to reform payment of fee's not that they shouldn't be valid.
You're sentenced can be in different areas but it's all 1 conviction. Someone can be charged even more for a crime including community servicer send probation. It's all part of the package though. Maybe we should leave it up to the criminal if they'd rather do 20 years in jail or 10 years+2k and 5 years probation.
Driving fee's fees are just as visible as what sentences are. In fact, court fee's are too. They can all be accessed similarly.
Are you intentionally not answering me?
What about these fees for someone who is subsequently found not guilty? The attorney fees and tether fees (if applicable) are not waived or reimbursed.
"Not gonna lie; I kind of keep expecting you to post one day that you threw down on someone who clearly had no idea that today was NOT THEIR DAY." ~dontcallmeshirley
$600 is still a lot. I didn't say it wasn't. In comparisons to what an "average" waged person would pay, the PD is only 15% of that. So that makes since. If a worker who makes minimum wage ($7+ an hour), doesn't qualify for a PD, someone whomdoesnt have a job pays a comparable rate ($600 is roughly 1/8 of 5k). Its not perfect but I can see how it's relative. $600 over a payback of 5 years could be manageable. Like I've state before, it's more about how to reform payment of fee's not that they shouldn't be valid.
You're sentenced can be in different areas but it's all 1 conviction. Someone can be charged even more for a crime including community servicer send probation. It's all part of the package though. Maybe we should leave it up to the criminal if they'd rather do 20 years in jail or 10 years+2k and 5 years probation.
Driving fee's fees are just as visible as what sentences are. In fact, court fee's are too. They can all be accessed similarly.
So you didn't read then. Look, if you make $7/hr, you don't have $600 in the bank. If you make $7/hr, you got fired for no call no show while sitting your ass in jail. If you make $7/hr, you will find it easy to get a new job when you get out. If you make $7/hr, if you manage to get a new job, it will take a while for you to find a new job. There is a very high likelihood that in the aftermath of your stint in jail, you have been unable to pay your rent and utilities. You now have to move, probably in with friends who are going to expect you to help pay for the rent and utilities there along with food and other stuff. And so again, how are you going to pay that $600 that will be $800 and even more because you haven't been paying it.
My speeding ticket of $125 is not the same thing.
And I know you didn't read because if you did, you would see that the fines are IN ADDITION to the community service, the jail sentence, etc. That the fines start accruing interest the moment they are handed down and that the work programs set up specifically to pay off fees NOT fines charge you per day to enroll.
I'm sure at&t pushes those requests to the front of the line. They don't run credit checks. They don't make sure you've paid that old bill you split with your old roommate who then ran out on his half. And they don't require any sort of documentation, someone to be home during installation, etc.
Are you sure about that? I don't know about the other ones, but I'm pretty sure someone has to be there for the install. This is just based on my experience with the judge. I'm not sure it was AT&T, though. I don't know if it had to be specific provider, you just had to have a land line to activate the tether.
Oh no, that was all sarcasm lol. You don't need to use a specific installer but in most places there is only one landline provider. I'm sure ESF is ready to go on why that's some bullshit too. lol
And trust, you do NOT go home until that line is installed. You are languishing in jail until you can get that installed.
I'm sure at&t pushes those requests to the front of the line. They don't run credit checks. They don't make sure you've paid that old bill you split with your old roommate who then ran out on his half. And they don't require any sort of documentation, someone to be home during installation, etc.
When we tried to get home phone service at our old apartment, the line was damaged inside of the building. This meant in order for us to get service we needed to pay for the repairs to the inside line.
$600 is still a lot. I didn't say it wasn't. In comparisons to what an "average" waged person would pay, the PD is only 15% of that. So that makes since. If a worker who makes minimum wage ($7+ an hour), doesn't qualify for a PD, someone whomdoesnt have a job pays a comparable rate ($600 is roughly 1/8 of 5k). Its not perfect but I can see how it's relative. $600 over a payback of 5 years could be manageable. Like I've state before, it's more about how to reform payment of fee's not that they shouldn't be valid.
You're sentenced can be in different areas but it's all 1 conviction. Someone can be charged even more for a crime including community servicer send probation. It's all part of the package though. Maybe we should leave it up to the criminal if they'd rather do 20 years in jail or 10 years+2k and 5 years probation.
Driving fee's fees are just as visible as what sentences are. In fact, court fee's are too. They can all be accessed similarly.
So you didn't read then. Look, if you make $7/hr, you don't have $600 in the bank. If you make $7/hr, you got fired for no call no show while sitting your ass in jail. If you make $7/hr, you will find it easy to get a new job when you get out. If you make $7/hr, if you manage to get a new job, it will take a while for you to find a new job. There is a very high likelihood that in the aftermath of your stint in jail, you have been unable to pay your rent and utilities. You now have to move, probably in with friends who are going to expect you to help pay for the rent and utilities there along with food and other stuff. And so again, how are you going to pay that $600 that will be $800 and even more because you haven't been paying it.
My speeding ticket of $125 is not the same thing.
And I know you didn't read because if you did, you would see that the fines are IN ADDITION to the community service, the jail sentence, etc. That the fines start accruing interest the moment they are handed down and that the work programs set up specifically to pay off fees NOT fines charge you per day to enroll.
In MI there are "State Minimum Costs" and "Crime Victim Fees" which would be in addition to any judgment, restitution, attorney fees, and any other fee (such as a tether).
"Not gonna lie; I kind of keep expecting you to post one day that you threw down on someone who clearly had no idea that today was NOT THEIR DAY." ~dontcallmeshirley
Some sort, yes. But if you're going to do it, it ought to be on a sliding scale basis. It is patently anti American to have a justice system that places an undue burden on the poorer of those who come through their doors. And paying for your own attorney when you cannot afford it is some bullshit.
It is ineffect a system of forced debt followed by debtor's prison.
From the courts perspective, everyone can pay something. But like you mentioned, it should be on a sliding scale. I believe everyone can pay something. I don't believe that we should have a justice system with no consequences.
Knowing that hiring an actual attorney for a 5k retainer, a $600 fee for one doesn't seem so extraordinary to me.
So here's a question then, if someone receives a speeding ticket, should someone who has a lower income pay a different price?
ummm we don't have a justice system with no consequences. We have (or are supposed to have) one in which innocent people have a chance to avoid having their lives destroyed and guilty people lose money, freedom, jobs, friends, kids, etc etc. Civil court is where people have their wallets punished. Criminal court can destroy your entire life. Even having being found not-guilty can fuck you over. We pay to keep that system going because it's in society's best interest not to put innocent people in jail. It's unconscionable to force individuals to pay to keep themselves out of jail, esp when they have little means. My eyeballs rolled right out of my head at $600 being NBD.
ETA: I really need to refresh before typing because I could have just liked every response to this nonsense instead
Well of course $600 is preferable to a 5k retainer but that's doesn't mean someone has $600, especially if that $600 is going to balloon to $800 or more because he can't pay in full.
I mean that's a serious logic fail, that something is affordable merely because there is a more expensive alternative.
And we don't have a justice system with no consequences. We have a justice system that charges you three times or more for one crime. Jail time, fines, and then back door court fees.
A speeding ticket isn't the same thing because generally speaking, the fees are reasonable, clearly posted, and you are given time to pay them that doesn't come with interest.
$600 is still a lot. I didn't say it wasn't. In comparisons to what an "average" waged person would pay, the PD is only 15% of that. So that makes since. If a worker who makes minimum wage ($7+ an hour), doesn't qualify for a PD, someone whomdoesnt have a job pays a comparable rate ($600 is roughly 1/8 of 5k). Its not perfect but I can see how it's relative. $600 over a payback of 5 years could be manageable. Like I've state before, it's more about how to reform payment of fee's not that they shouldn't be valid.
You're sentenced can be in different areas but it's all 1 conviction. Someone can be charged even more for a crime including community servicer send probation. It's all part of the package though. Maybe we should leave it up to the criminal if they'd rather do 20 years in jail or 10 years+2k and 5 years probation.
Driving fee's fees are just as visible as what sentences are. In fact, court fee's are too. They can all be accessed similarly.
No.
If we as taxpayers want a functioning system criminal justice system, then we as taxpayers have to pay for it.
The more we put the costs on the defendants, the easier it is for us to turn a blind eye to whether the system is fair or not. I want society to pay the full tab for the war on drugs, I want us to know and feel the costs of a screwed up public policy, and I want a conversation about whether its worth the expense. I want it to be expensive to bring criminal charges so we have to prioritize what crimes we want to prioritize. The more costs we dump on the criminals, the easier it is to ignore the consequences of our policy decisions.
Criminals accept responsibility by being sentenced and branded as criminals.
We as taxpayers need to accept responsibility for the things we criminalize and the penalties associated with them.
Driving fee's fees are just as visible as what sentences are. In fact, court fee's are too. They can all be accessed similarly.
Again, we are NOT talking about your standard court fees. We are talking about special fees tacked on top of your standard fees you think about when you think of court costs.
We are talking about mandatory payments to the legal aid fund and all sorts of padding the costs business. It's not even, hey, we're charging you for the lawyer you used per hour. In some states, they are saying, hey, you're been convicted so you need to pay this much into this fund regardless of how much you may have used from that fund.
So yeah, NOT THE SAME AS A SPEEDING TICKET.
It's only the same as a speeding ticket if in addition to the speeding ticket, the system adds $100 for the safe highway program, $20 for the radar gun program, and $15 for the gas the cop used while patrolling that stretch of highway on top of your $125 speeding ticket. Oh and by the way, that $135 on top of your ticket? It's been gathering interest from the moment the cop wrote the ticket.
Are you sure about that? I don't know about the other ones, but I'm pretty sure someone has to be there for the install. This is just based on my experience with the judge. I'm not sure it was AT&T, though. I don't know if it had to be specific provider, you just had to have a land line to activate the tether.
Oh no, that was all sarcasm lol. You don't need to use a specific installer but in most places there is only one landline provider. I'm sure ESF is ready to go on why that's some bullshit too. lol
I couldn't get past the typos to bother getting into the weeds as to her math. I'm impressed that you were able to. Well done.
Oh no, that was all sarcasm lol. You don't need to use a specific installer but in most places there is only one landline provider. I'm sure ESF is ready to go on why that's some bullshit too. lol
I couldn't get past the typos to bother getting into the weeds as to her math. I'm impressed that you were able to. Well done.
I don't do math though! (as evidenced by the current state of my bank account. Kill me now.)
$600 is still a lot. I didn't say it wasn't. In comparisons to what an "average" waged person would pay, the PD is only 15% of that. So that makes since. If a worker who makes minimum wage ($7+ an hour), doesn't qualify for a PD, someone whomdoesnt have a job pays a comparable rate ($600 is roughly 1/8 of 5k). Its not perfect but I can see how it's relative. $600 over a payback of 5 years could be manageable. Like I've state before, it's more about how to reform payment of fee's not that they shouldn't be valid.
You're sentenced can be in different areas but it's all 1 conviction. Someone can be charged even more for a crime including community servicer send probation. It's all part of the package though. Maybe we should leave it up to the criminal if they'd rather do 20 years in jail or 10 years+2k and 5 years probation.
Driving fee's fees are just as visible as what sentences are. In fact, court fee's are too. They can all be accessed similarly.
Are you intentionally not answering me?
What about these fees for someone who is subsequently found not guilty? The attorney fees and tether fees (if applicable) are not waived or reimbursed.
I'm not. I apologize if I offended you by not responding. I wrote a response in another post.
No they should be reimbursed (if PD was used). Or better yet, no fee's are collected until the conviction is guilty (no contest, etch). That would absolve the issue those who cannot pay up front.
"Not gonna lie; I kind of keep expecting you to post one day that you threw down on someone who clearly had no idea that today was NOT THEIR DAY." ~dontcallmeshirley
Having just spent several days in the prison of a developing country (as a researcher, not a resident, thank goodness) I've learned more about the criminal justice system both here and abroad than I ever needed to know. Even as a middle class woman, being accused of a crime I didn't commit would wipe me out financially. Seriously. We'd blow through the savings account just to get me out of jail and put down a retainer on a decent lawyer, then have to clear through our retirement accounts during the trial. If I'm super, super lucky and picked the right lawyer, I might (might!) eventually get some of that money back, in part because I have the time, cultural capital, and social capital to push for it. The entire process sounds exhausting. I don't doubt at all why some innocent people just plea out. That said, the idea that "justice" depends upon your income is just sickening. That you'd be further punished just for being low income is disgusting.
Driving fee's fees are just as visible as what sentences are. In fact, court fee's are too. They can all be accessed similarly.
Again, we are NOT talking about your standard court fees. We are talking about special fees tacked on top of your standard fees you think about when you think of court costs.
We are talking about mandatory payments to the legal aid fund and all sorts of padding the costs business. It's not even, hey, we're charging you for the lawyer you used per hour. In some states, they are saying, hey, you're been convicted so you need to pay this much into this fund regardless of how much you may have used from that fund.
So yeah, NOT THE SAME AS A SPEEDING TICKET.
It's only the same as a speeding ticket if in addition to the speeding ticket, the system adds $100 for the safe highway program, $20 for the radar gun program, and $15 for the gas the cop used while patrolling that stretch of highway on top of your $125 speeding ticket. Oh and by the way, that $135 on top of your ticket? It's been gathering interest from the moment the cop wrote the ticket.
Have a nice day.
I get its not about a speeding ticket- I was trying to draw a conclusion that if someone who was poor should pay less for court fees than others, then what about other areas of the law? Which proved my point. That poster thought they should pay the same. Just to answer you back. In the example you gave, would increasing the ticket total to $270 be any different instead of breaking the costs up separately? I feel like that is what will happen then. All the "fees" will be lumped into one cost. Isn't the point to punish and rehab to stop you from doing it again?
I think people are forgetting that NOONE MADE THEM COMMIT THE CRIME (excluding causes of the innocent, etc). It was their choice to commit the crime. Why should anyone else have to pay for their punishment? As others have already stated, our system is financially and theoretically broke. There is no money to keep the system a float. Other than charging criminals, what other way can draw income for the system? The article have a quote that it was costing $70 a day to have them in jail for 10 days which was wasteful. What would be the alternative then? Not have you receive a punishment for your crime?
Like I've stated before, I believe some repayment/fees are appropriate because it's part of the sentence. But with that said, there should be reform on resources available to pay, shouldn't need available funds up front, and shouldn't charge interest during a jail sentence and for a period after they get out (say 1 year so they can get on their feet). Everyone can pay something-say $10 a month for someone who has income. If you don't like it, then don't commit a crime. If you don't want to go to jail, you don't commit a crime. And if the convicted doesn't pay for costs, then who should?