What do you think of when you hear "Court Fees"?

[Deleted]

Aka stories that made me ripshit pissed in the carpool lane yesterday. I was going to c&p but it's actually a pretty long article. But go read it anyway.

$600 to the public defender fund. Please explain how that's not making people pay for their lawyer.


www.npr.org/2014/05/19/312158516/increasing-court-fees-punish-the-poor

Here's an excerpt though.

"The NPR survey found, with help from the Brennan Center for Justice at New York University School of Law, that in at least 43 states and D.C., defendants can be billed for a public defender. We found two typical charges: an upfront application fee to hire a lawyer, which can range from $10 to $400; and reimbursement fees, which can cost thousands of dollars.



"After the fact you can be asked to reimburse up to the full cost of your representation," says Alicia Bannon, an attorney with the Brennan Center.



The courts — including the Supreme Court — have justified this by saying even a poor person can often pay something — even if it's just that small application fee. Or maybe that person is poor today, but tomorrow will find a good-paying job and have money.



In reality, NPR found that poor people sometimes skip using an attorney. Or they carry the debt for their court-appointed lawyer for years.



Tom Barrett, who stole that can of beer in Augusta, Ga., was offered a court-appointed attorney, but turned the service down because he didn't want to pay the $50 administration fee. Now he says that was a mistake.

A lawyer might have helped him stay away from a deal he couldn't afford. His costs added up to more than $400 a month, which included daily rental of the electronic monitoring device and fees to a private firm that managed his probation. But Barrett was homeless. His only income, other than food stamps, came from the $35 he got selling his plasma to the blood bank. So when he quickly fell behind on his payments, he was sent to jail.



The NPR survey found, all states — except for Hawaii and also the District of Columbia — now allow or even require the cost of those devices to be passed along to those ordered by a court to wear one. Usually that includes a daily rental fee: Typically around $5 for a tracking device and often twice as much to rent the alcohol monitoring device. It also includes the cost of a land-line phone for the systems to work, and an installation fee.



Last fall, Augusta Superior Court Judge Daniel Craig put a temporary stop to forcing poor people to pay fees for the devices and other costs."

[meshaliuknits]

May 20, 2014 9:43:11 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

The NPR survey found, all states — except for Hawaii and also the District of Columbia — now allow or even require the cost of those devices to be passed along to those ordered by a court to wear one. Usually that includes a daily rental fee: Typically around $5 for a tracking device and often twice as much to rent the alcohol monitoring device. It also includes the cost of a land-line phone for the systems to work, and an installation fee.

WTF is this? If I'm being court ordered to wear an ankle bracelet not only am I "renting" the stupid thing, but I also have to pay AT&T to come and install a goddamn land line?

[Deleted]

May 20, 2014 9:50:02 GMT -5 meshaliuknits said:

May 20, 2014 9:43:11 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

The NPR survey found, all states — except for Hawaii and also the District of Columbia — now allow or even require the cost of those devices to be passed along to those ordered by a court to wear one. Usually that includes a daily rental fee: Typically around $5 for a tracking device and often twice as much to rent the alcohol monitoring device. It also includes the cost of a land-line phone for the systems to work, and an installation fee.

WTF is this? If I'm being court ordered to wear an ankle bracelet not only am I "renting" the stupid thing, but I also have to pay AT&T to come and install a goddamn land line?

Or you could go to jail longer.

You know, choices. 

There's a part in there about how you can sign up for a work program that will knock off dollars from your fine except there is a fucking fee for the work program.

Yes, you heard me. You can work off some of the $1200 debt to the state but it will cost you $5 a day for the privilege.

[meshaliuknits]

May 20, 2014 9:55:47 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

May 20, 2014 9:50:02 GMT -5 meshaliuknits said:

WTF is this? If I'm being court ordered to wear an ankle bracelet not only am I "renting" the stupid thing, but I also have to pay AT&T to come and install a goddamn land line?

Or you could go to jail longer.

You know, choices. 

There's a part in there about how you can sign up for a work program that will knock off dollars from your fine except there is a fucking fee for the work program.

Yes, you heard me. You can work off some of the $1200 debt to the state but it will cost you $5 a day for the privilege.

You load sixteen tons, what do you get?
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter, don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store.


That's basically what we're working with here, no?

[Deleted]

May 20, 2014 10:08:21 GMT -5 meshaliuknits said:

May 20, 2014 9:55:47 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

Or you could go to jail longer.

You know, choices. 

There's a part in there about how you can sign up for a work program that will knock off dollars from your fine except there is a fucking fee for the work program.

Yes, you heard me. You can work off some of the $1200 debt to the state but it will cost you $5 a day for the privilege.

You load sixteen tons, what do you get?
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter, don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store.


That's basically what we're working with here, no?

Pretty much!

I think we all expect there to be some court fees. I just don't think most people realize the broad range of services they are calling court fees these days.

If you don't pay them, you go to jail which has more fees associated with it as well.

So what the fuck, man?

[LoveTrains]

ESF come in here and rage against this for me.

[havarti]

I listened to this story last night with my mouth agape. I don't understand how it's even fiscally practical. So if people can't pay they got to jail longer -- isn't that more expensive in the long run? I'm all for people paying restitution to their victims, but the rest of this is just nonsense!

[newgirl412]

So, I guess the line in the Miranda statement of "If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed to you" is a crock of bull....lol.

[Deleted]

May 20, 2014 11:10:12 GMT -5 newgirl412 said:

So, I guess the line in the Miranda statement of "If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed to you" is a crock of bull....lol.

It was just a suggestion. Kind of like the 5% juice in your Ocean Spray.

[Deleted]

May 20, 2014 11:05:35 GMT -5 havarti said:

I listened to this story last night with my mouth agape. I don't understand how it's even fiscally practical. So if people can't pay they got to jail longer -- isn't that more expensive in the long run? I'm all for people paying restitution to their victims, but the rest of this is just nonsense!

Exactly! I was used to thinking about court fees as like filing fees in civil suits. I know the courts cost money. I totally get that. But you don't get to pass the costs onto the least of us, especially when you know good and damned well the poorest among us can't pay and can be arrested again for that.

As if going to jail once wasn't enough of a life ruiner, you have to worry about when the po po shows up again because you can't pay $600 to the public defender's fund.

[Deleted]

that whole series made me rage-y

[penguingrrl]

Holy shit this is disturbing. I had no idea they could charge you for your court appointed lawyer.

[ESF]

There have been insane amount of budget cuts to the federal and state judiciary branches.  

Fees to hire a public defender are just unconscionable.  I have not heard about that and I'm horrified.  I've heard about massive problems on the civil side -- increased filing fees, longer wait times to get a jury trial, and fewer resources being made available to those needing assistance.  It's resulting in people needing important legal services, like those needing to enforce a child support order, being evicted or having other landlord/tenant disputes, etc, just not being able to get a foot in the door of the courthouse.   The fact that these budget cuts have now moved over to the criminal side makes me horrified.

And you know what!  This can all be tied back to arbitration.  We have let big money privatize justice.  Cases that used to be filed in court are now being filed in arbitration (or not at all).  The types of cases that are leaving the public justice system are the types that were subject to the highest filing fees, and had hefty per-motion fees attached to them.  Courts often charge you to file a case and that charge is based on what type of case it is and what the damages are.  It can cost $1500+ to file a class action, but $25 to file a small claims case, and maybe $100-$500 for your average low-stakes individual lawsuit.  The motions associated with bigger cases will cost $500 to file, but much less to file or nothing in the smaller cases. 

The Supreme Court and the US Chamber of Commerce has forced class actions and higher stakes individual cases into the privatized, corporation-run "justice" system, and that's hundreds of thousands of dollars in income any given courthouse is losing in a year.  Those fees previously offset the cost of legal services for others.   Courthouses have to make up the funds to operate somehow.

Since corporations don't use the courthouses anymore, they don't need them to function. The more the courthouses get backed up because they are underfunded, the more than can point to the inadequacies of the judicial system to explain why justice should be privatized, and why courthouse budgets should be slashed.  

Law school debt is rising, and nobody with $100k+ in debt wants a 60+ hour a week, $30k a year job as a public defender.  To try to obtain enough public defenders, and with legal aid being slashed from budgets everywhere, the money has to come from somewhere.

Some issues will always have to remain in the public justice system, but unless there's a collective willingness to support the justice system, it's going to continue to deteriorate, and the poor, the criminal defendants, etc - they will suffer the most.

[MrsAxilla]

May 20, 2014 11:14:36 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

May 20, 2014 11:10:12 GMT -5 newgirl412 said:

So, I guess the line in the Miranda statement of "If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed to you" is a crock of bull....lol.

No, it's still true.  One will be appointed to you.  And then you will pay him or her.  No freeloaders in this justice system.  

/sarcasm

This is what I was going to say.  I don't see the word "free" in there anywhere.

this is appalling.

[MrsAxilla]

Thank you, ESF. I had no idea.

[StrawberryBlondie]

This is what happens when states (and feds) slash the budget for the courts and the public defenders... don't like it? Tell your legislators to restore the proper funding.

[starlily]

In my county, the public defenders ask the judges at sentencing to deem their currents indigent and eliminate the fee for public defender services, and/or ask for minimal fines and fees. The judges make a cursory inquiry as to employment or other income sources, and grant the requests nearly 100% of the time. Seems like this is one of those things that varies widely among jurisdictions.

ETA: Likewise I know that the sheriff will accept requests to waive the fee to do weekends instead of straight time or the fee for electronic monitoring.

[PinkSquirrel]

When I read this kind of stuff I see red and my head has a mini internal explosion. Our justice system disgusts me on a regular basis and let's not pretend that keeping people in jail for not paying their public defender isn't lining anyone's pockets. This is what happens when you make large chunks of your "justice system" for profit or run by for profit companies

[WOT?*]

How lovely:

In Washington state, for example, there's 12 percent interest on costs in felony cases that accrues from the moment of judgment until all fines, fees, restitution and interest are paid off in full. As a result, it can be hard for someone who's poor to make that debt ever go away. One state commission found that the average amount in felony cases adds up to $2,500. If someone paid a typical amount $10 a month and never missed a payment, his debt would keep growing. After four years of faithful payments, the person would now owe $3,000.

Virginia Dickerson, of Richland, Wash., has been drug-free for more than three years and out of jail for over a year. She's living in a treatment house and working as a waitress and cook. On the day last fall when NPR reporters met her, Dickerson was at the courthouse trying to get a summary of how much she owed in fines, fees and interest. The total: almost $10,000.

www.gpb.org/news/2014/05/20/as-court-fees-rise-the-poor-are-paying-the-price

Just putting that out there because that's my extremely pro-rights, liberal state demanding that the poor pay the piper until the piper can't be paid no more.

[kme]

I can't disagree with having some sort of fee or cost in criminal cases. They committed a crime and the assumption that tax payers should pay for your sentence I don't agree with.

You don't need a lawyer for tenant/landlord, child support but I think whoever is at fault should payback those fees.

[gpw]

May 20, 2014 19:57:48 GMT -5 kme said:

I can't disagree with having some sort of fee or cost in criminal cases. They committed a crime and the assumption that tax payers should pay for your sentence I don't agree with.

You don't need a lawyer for tenant/landlord, child support but I think whoever is at fault should payback those fees.

Except in this country a person is innocent until proven guilty.  While a defendant will get back any bond they post, I don't believe they are reimbursed for any charges for a tether and are still responsible for any attorney fees if they are found not guilty.

[ESF]

May 20, 2014 19:57:48 GMT -5 kme said:

I can't disagree with having some sort of fee or cost in criminal cases. They committed a crime and the assumption that tax payers should pay for your sentence I don't agree with.

You don't need a lawyer for tenant/landlord, child support but I think whoever is at fault should payback those fees.

Yeah, it is so great when taxpayers pay to send an innocent person to prison because they couldn't afford a lawyer to represent them.  Do you have any idea how many people are falsely accused?  I assure you, the amount of money we spend providing poor people with criminal lawyers is a fucking bargain compared to the costs we'd pay imprisoning every innocent black man too poor for a lawyer accused of a crime.  But hey, fuck 'em, amiright?

[Deleted]

May 20, 2014 19:57:48 GMT -5 kme said:

I can't disagree with having some sort of fee or cost in criminal cases. They committed a crime and the assumption that tax payers should pay for your sentence I don't agree with.

You don't need a lawyer for tenant/landlord, child support but I think whoever is at fault should payback those fees.

Some sort, yes. But if you're going to do it, it ought to be on a sliding scale basis. It is patently anti American to have a justice system that places an undue burden on the poorer of those who come through their doors. And paying for your own attorney when you cannot afford it is some bullshit.

It is ineffect a system of forced debt followed by debtor's prison.

[Deleted]

May 20, 2014 20:20:18 GMT -5 ESF said:

Yeah, it is so great when taxpayers pay to send an innocent person to prison because they couldn't afford a lawyer to represent them.  Do you have any idea how many people are falsely accused?  I assure you, the amount of money we spend providing poor people with criminal lawyers is a fucking bargain compared to the costs we'd pay imprisoning every innocent black man too poor for a lawyer accused of a crime.  But hey, fuck 'em, amiright?

Also, these facts are not well known. My Law and Order degree did not cover this and neither did my concentrations in SVU and Criminal Intent.

We've been laboring under the idea that one pays their debt to society and goes free. But the reality is that the debt from your own fucking prosecution will follow you around for years. So not only are you pretty much unemployable, you still have to pay a couple grand in debt for the privilege of prosecuting you.

And then the very system that's set up to help you with that burden charges you for that service.

No.

At a certain point, the punishment doesn't fit the crime. 

[ESF]

May 20, 2014 20:27:01 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

May 20, 2014 20:20:18 GMT -5 ESF said:

Yeah, it is so great when taxpayers pay to send an innocent person to prison because they couldn't afford a lawyer to represent them.  Do you have any idea how many people are falsely accused?  I assure you, the amount of money we spend providing poor people with criminal lawyers is a fucking bargain compared to the costs we'd pay imprisoning every innocent black man too poor for a lawyer accused of a crime.  But hey, fuck 'em, amiright?

Also, these facts are not well known. My Law and Order degree did not cover this and neither did my concentrations in SVU and Criminal Intent.

We've been laboring under the idea that one pays their debt to society and goes free. But the reality is that the debt from your own fucking prosecution will follow you around for years. So not only are you pretty much unemployable, you still have to pay a couple grand in debt for the privilege of prosecuting you.

And then the very system that's set up to help you with that burden charges you for that service.

No.

At a certain point, the punishment doesn't fit the crime. 

*personal story deleted*

[kme]

May 20, 2014 20:22:48 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

May 20, 2014 19:57:48 GMT -5 kme said:

I can't disagree with having some sort of fee or cost in criminal cases. They committed a crime and the assumption that tax payers should pay for your sentence I don't agree with.

You don't need a lawyer for tenant/landlord, child support but I think whoever is at fault should payback those fees.

Some sort, yes. But if you're going to do it, it ought to be on a sliding scale basis. It is patently anti American to have a justice system that places an undue burden on the poorer of those who come through their doors. And paying for your own attorney when you cannot afford it is some bullshit.

It is ineffect a system of forced debt followed by debtor's prison.

From the courts perspective, everyone can pay something. But like you mentioned, it should be on a sliding scale. I believe everyone can pay something. I don't believe that we should have a justice system with no consequences.

Knowing that hiring an actual attorney for a 5k retainer, a $600 fee for one doesn't seem so extraordinary to me.

So here's a question then, if someone receives a speeding ticket, should someone who has a lower income pay a different price?

[jeaniebueller]

In most jurisdictions, if one is found not guilty or charges dismissed, they don't have to pay the fee, is that true? On a different note, I know that in my state, the courts aren't supposed to order any kind of fees, costs or restitution unless they evaluate the defendants ability to pay.

[heyjude]

May 20, 2014 11:45:30 GMT -5 StrawberryBlondie said:

This is what happens when states (and feds) slash the budget for the courts and the public defenders... don't like it? Tell your legislators to restore the proper funding.

Exactly this. Lawyers cost money. Where is that money supposed to come from exactly? If you find this appalling remember that rage next time you are asked to vote on an initiative to raise taxes or to vote for an official who has pledged almighty allegiance to Grover Norquist/Howard Jarvis.

[Deleted]

May 20, 2014 20:44:30 GMT -5 kme said:

From the courts perspective, everyone can pay something. But like you mentioned, it should be on a sliding scale. I believe everyone can pay something. I don't believe that we should have a justice system with no consequences.

Knowing that hiring an actual attorney for a 5k retainer, a $600 fee for one doesn't seem so extraordinary to me.

So here's a question then, if someone receives a speeding ticket, should someone who has a lower income pay a different price?

Well of course $600 is preferable to a 5k retainer but that's doesn't mean someone has $600, especially if that $600 is going to balloon to $800 or more because he can't pay in full.

I mean that's a serious logic fail, that something is affordable merely because there is a more expensive alternative. 

And we don't have a justice system with no consequences. We have a justice system that charges you three times or more for one crime. Jail time, fines, and then back door court fees.

A speeding ticket isn't the same thing because generally speaking, the fees are reasonable, clearly posted, and you are given time to pay them that doesn't come with interest.

[kme]

May 20, 2014 20:20:18 GMT -5 ESF said:

May 20, 2014 19:57:48 GMT -5 kme said:

I can't disagree with having some sort of fee or cost in criminal cases. They committed a crime and the assumption that tax payers should pay for your sentence I don't agree with.

You don't need a lawyer for tenant/landlord, child support but I think whoever is at fault should payback those fees.

Yeah, it is so great when taxpayers pay to send an innocent person to prison because they couldn't afford a lawyer to represent them.  Do you have any idea how many people are falsely accused?  I assure you, the amount of money we spend providing poor people with criminal lawyers is a fucking bargain compared to the costs we'd pay imprisoning every innocent black man too poor for a lawyer accused of a crime.  But hey, fuck 'em, amiright?

You're just pointing out other flaws in our justice system and not so much regarding any fees. Think about it the other way around, someone who has truly committed a crime (confession, evidence, etc), should they pay something then? The issue is our justice system views guilty as guilty- there is no difference. That's where your issue truly lies.

Any other discussion regarding someone who can't afford a lawyers fees is more relative to reform of the legal system- not that someone shouldn't pay/reimburse. If you're not convicted, you shouldn't have to pay. If you can't pay upfront, maybe have a loan program or community service. There needs to be other ways then just a blanket "no fee's" statements.